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Originally posted by muztariq
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From where did you get the data that the Shell Rimula R3X and R4 contain Moly & Boron ? Please Google for their MSDS, and read it thoroughly...
Last edited by psr; 04-20-2013, 11:28 PM.When Was The Last Time,You Did Something For The First Time. -
Originally posted by psr View PostFrom where did you get the data that the Shell Rimula R3X and R4 contain Moly & Boron ? Please Google for their MSDS, and read it thoroughly...
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GSAP_msds_00317736.PDF
The above oil contain 110 micron Molybdenum and its called 110 Micron Moly Racing Oil. Micron is mm/1000
The word Moly comes from Molybdenum!! This is also added in fuels - Heard Liquimoly!! On the MSDS you will not find this information.Last edited by muztariq; 04-20-2013, 11:44 PM.Comment
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Originally posted by Touseef Ahmed Mohammed View PostShort of an oil analysis from a reputed lab ( which we don't have here ) , there is no way you can tell the condition of the oil by visual or physical inspection etc . Darkness / change of colour of the oil does not indicate it's life , neither does the reduction in oil level . Good oils that clean the engine and hold effluents in suspension efficiently gets darker soon . Oil levels reduce owing to loss - mostly owing to engine defects or rarely owing to use of a very unsuitable grade of oil .Originally posted by accuengineer View Post
So , be on the safe side and drain semi-synthetic oil at the same time as you would a mineral oil . It is mostly a mineral oil only . No point in trying to justify the high cost you paid for the semi-synthetic label by stretching the drain interval proportionately . If that be the case , better look for a cheaper oil next time - not the one you can afford to fill , but the one you can afford to drain in time
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Last edited by Pinaki; 04-21-2013, 01:32 AM.Comment
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Thats nicely said! Excellent punchline!Originally posted by Pinaki View PostBetter look for a cheaper oil next time - not the one you can afford to fill , but the one you can afford to drain in time .Comment
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MSDS is a SAFETY related declaration in which all of the additives are mentioned....the declaration is for Safe Handling, ... remedial action and treatment in case of material being swallowed and is taken seriously and not lightly...if the MSDS does not declare Moly then it is not there...Originally posted by muztariq View Post
The above oil contain 110 micron Molybdenum and its called 110 Micron Moly Racing Oil. Micron is mm/1000
The word Moly comes from Molybdenum!! This is also added in fuels - Heard Liquimoly!! On the MSDS you will not find this information.
We are referring to normal engines in street bikes and not racing engines.....
Moly can be used in NON-WET CLUTCH applications.
Liqui moly is an oil additive and NOT a FUEL ADDITIVE..
Moly is used more in Hydraulic application, Grease and gear box oils
Thoughts on molybdenum in motor oil? - Bob Is The Oil GuyLast edited by psr; 04-21-2013, 11:57 AM.When Was The Last Time,You Did Something For The First Time.Comment
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Liquimoly is fuel additive. (I didnt say it does not market Engine oil additive)Originally posted by psr View Post
Additives
There are 10 - 15 compounds in an oil.. potassium hydroxide, Sodium Hydroxide, Calcium carbonates and other alkali are present alone or in combination in nearly every engine oil. You wont find that information in the MSDS. Search for TBN test.
There are other anti-foaming agents, pour point additives, friction modifiers, anti corrosive agents in oil which does not necesarily make up on the list of ingredients on the MSDS.
Blackstone is a world renowned oil testing firm and if it mentions presence of molybdenum in oil - It does contain molybdenum. Oil companies will sue Blackstone for reporting molybdenum in the oil when they have not added it!Comment
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My view was NOT an insult to mineral oil.Originally posted by Pinaki View PostShort of an oil analysis from a reputed lab ( which we don't have here ) , there is no way you can tell the condition of the oil by visual or physical inspection etc . Darkness / change of colour of the oil does not indicate it's life , neither does the reduction in oil level . Good oils that clean the engine and hold effluents in suspension efficiently gets darker soon . Oil levels reduce owing to loss - mostly owing to engine defects or rarely owing to use of a very unsuitable grade of oil .
So , be on the safe side and drain semi-synthetic oil at the same time as you would a mineral oil . It is mostly a mineral oil only . No point in trying to justify the high cost you paid for the semi-synthetic label by stretching the drain interval proportionately . If that be the case , better look for a cheaper oil next time - not the one you can afford to fill , but the one you can afford to drain in time .
But the difference in ride with usage of semi synthetic oil. The whole of Xbhp uses semi synthetics over minerals. Hope the difference is felt clearly. Coming to drain in time, The Synthetic blend oils last some few 100 kms more.
Minerals go bad in 300-400 kms of usage. Engine harshness comes in soon. Coming to Shell, i got it for 300 bucks. Where as others (say minerals) are around 270 bucks.
30 bucks never make difference to buy, but the Joy of riding matters. Synthetic blend oils are WAY better in feel & ofcourse protection & performance too.Royal Enfield Bullet Standard 350cc 1989, Bajaj Avenger 200-2009, Pulsar 200 NS 2015.Comment
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Liquimoly as referred in your post as a Fuel additive is the Name of the Manufacturer and not the Compound, and it does not contain Molybdenum which is what we were discussing...it is a fuel line and injector cleaner more like the SYstem "G", used in our country, and is similar to Carburetor ,and Injector cleaner.Originally posted by muztariq View PostLiquimoly is fuel additive. (I didnt say it does not market Engine oil additive)
Additives
There are 10 - 15 compounds in an oil.. potassium hydroxide, Sodium Hydroxide, Calcium carbonates and other alkali are present alone or in combination in nearly every engine oil. You wont find that information in the MSDS. Search for TBN test.
There are other anti-foaming agents, pour point additives, friction modifiers, anti corrosive agents in oil which does not necesarily make up on the list of ingredients on the MSDS.
Blackstone is a world renowned oil testing firm and if it mentions presence of molybdenum in oil - It does contain molybdenum. Oil companies will sue Blackstone for reporting molybdenum in the oil when they have not added it!
We are concerned with the more popularly used Molybdenum in Wet clutch application since it had been known to cause clutch slip..we are not worried about Dry clutch application in cars .
We can surmise on use of oil based on what the Original Manufacturer Publishes in MSDS , and if one has to know individual ingredients, and their levels,...one has to go for some advanced lab testing, for each and every oil....
It is the Friction modifiers that we don't want in the Wet Clutch application...
-When Was The Last Time,You Did Something For The First Time.Comment
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Exactly. Liqui Moly. is the name of the company, and not brand name per se.Originally posted by psr View Post
Liqui Moly's main product is motor oil with MoS 2 but there are also other lubricants with MoS 2 and the additive MoS 2 itself to be added by the end user during oil changes. Molybdenum disulfide enhances the lubrication quality of the oil and offers emergency operating features under harsh conditions. It can be added to motor oils and to non-motor oils including gear oil, transmission oil or differentials oils. Source: Wiki.
I think Muzz is right too, I guess all details wouldn't be published in MSDS. I mean if they do then where is the competitive edge!
I guess Psr Ji as you've stated, for remedial purposes, most chemical containing stuff do have some kind of remedial procedure on the label at the back, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have to list their entire concentration right sir.
I guess almost even fuel is carcinogenic but very few know that and oil is left to no chances. So I guess based on the harmful substances present I SURMISE they are tabulated in the MSDS for a quick understanding if there is a mishap in handling the oil.
Cheers!
VJ
Sent from my LT26ii using Tapatalk 2Once upon a time, a guy asked a girl 'Will you marry me?'
The girl said, 'NO!'
And the guy lived happily ever after and rode motorcycles and watched sport on a big screen TV, went fishing and surfing, and played golf a lot, and drank beer and scotch and had tons of money in the bank and left the toilet seat up and farted whenever he wanted.
THE ENDComment
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I never said that semi-synthetics do not offer such benefits , yes it is there . But twice the drain interval is not one of them . Semi-synthetic oil is mineral oil with some synthetic oil mixed in it to improve it's properties . There is no law or regulation or declaration that says how much synthetic oil has to be mixed to label an ordinary mineral oil as semi-synthetic . It can be less than a teaspoon of it too , no ? Anyway even you can calculate approximately how much synthetic oil (which costs near 1000 Rs per liter) they put in your semi-synthetic oil , for just Rs 30 more than the same mineral oil .Originally posted by Touseef Ahmed Mohammed View PostMy view was NOT an insult to mineral oil.
But the difference in ride with usage of semi synthetic oil. The whole of Xbhp uses semi synthetics over minerals. Hope the difference is felt clearly. Coming to drain in time, The Synthetic blend oils last some few 100 kms more.
Minerals go bad in 300-400 kms of usage. Engine harshness comes in soon. Coming to Shell, i got it for 300 bucks. Where as others (say minerals) are around 270 bucks.
30 bucks never make difference to buy, but the Joy of riding matters. Synthetic blend oils are WAY better in feel & ofcourse protection & performance too.
All I say ( and ever maintained ) is semi-syntheitc oils do not provide an extension of drain interval over an equivalent mineral oil . You can actually harm the engine by doing that . I myself am running Gulf full-synthetic 10w30 oil ( Rs 300 ) , but I shall surely drain it at 2000Kms or 4 months , whichever comes earlier .
Better ride quality ? Yes that is possible and I don't refute that . But if your engine is feeling harsh after 300-400 kms of an oil fill , with ANY darn oil , it is not because of the oil .Last edited by Pinaki; 04-21-2013, 03:20 PM.Comment
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There is small amounts of friction reducers added to fuel additives.. There are other compounds which help clean the fuel lines, injectors, carbs etc. But the addition of this small amount of lubricant to fuel additives gives a smooth feel to the user and the acceleration increases (this pseudo feeling brings him back to the shop next time). Some companies use small amount of castor oil to provide this pseudo effect. Some uses molybdenum and other friction reducers. Here is a patent of a similar technology -
United States Patent 4647293
Gasoline compositions containing hexavalent molybdenum
The incorporation of certain specific molybdenum compounds into gasoline has been suggested for the purpose of providing a composition having improved lubricating and antiwear properties. U.S. Pat. Nos. 4,164,473; 4,176,073; and 4,176,074 disclose the use of molybdenum complexes of hydroxy amines, molybdenum complexes of lactone oxazoline dispersants, and molybdenum complexes of oxazoline dispersants respectively for this purpose. Similarly, U.S. Pat. Nos. 4,192,757 and 4,201,683 disclose, for this purpose, the use of molybdenum complexes which are obtained by reaction of a hydrocarbyl substituted thio-bis-phenol with a molybdenum compound in the presence of an amine in an alkyl substituted phenol or alkanol solvent, respectively. In addition, U.S. Pat. No. 3,994,697 teaches that a solid pellet comprising various metals in combination with molybdenum disulfide can be placed in the fuel reservoir of an internal combustion engine where it slowly disintegrates to produce extremely minute particles which are dispersed in the fuel and are delivered to the fuel-contacting parts of the engine to deposit a lubricant film thereon.
I would like to reiterate that not everything is being disclosed on the MSDS. If you want to get into minute details of Oil composition you should run oil analysis. Even that is chemical test which just tells you presence of x.y,z elements. To get the info on which salt of the metal is used one has to run Infrared Spectroscopy, XRD, NMR spectroscopy etc etc.
This thread is becoming way to scientific. May not be liked by everyone!
Got to go.. Have to munch up some kilometers!! Too much talking
Last edited by muztariq; 04-21-2013, 04:07 PM.Comment
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Can't help but love every second reading this thread. So forget calcium sulfonate in wet clutch engines and molybdenum disulfide in car. So this pellet of mixed metals used in fuel reservoir, doesn't it mean bufurcating it as an additive in fuel as opposed to oil mean any benefits?
I mean essentially what this does is help reduce friction directly in the cylinder walls as opposed to Moly clinging to clutch in the form of oil additive and slip right, then I want this darn pellet.
Cheers!
VJ
Sent from my LT26ii using Tapatalk 2Once upon a time, a guy asked a girl 'Will you marry me?'
The girl said, 'NO!'
And the guy lived happily ever after and rode motorcycles and watched sport on a big screen TV, went fishing and surfing, and played golf a lot, and drank beer and scotch and had tons of money in the bank and left the toilet seat up and farted whenever he wanted.
THE ENDComment
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Thats the reason i prefer semi synthetics sirOriginally posted by Pinaki View PostI never said that semi-synthetics do not offer such benefits , yes it is there . But twice the drain interval is not one of them . Semi-synthetic oil is mineral oil with some synthetic oil mixed in it to improve it's properties . There is no law or regulation or declaration that says how much synthetic oil has to be mixed to label an ordinary mineral oil as semi-synthetic . It can be less than a teaspoon of it too , no ? Anyway even you can calculate approximately how much synthetic oil (which costs near 1000 Rs per liter) they put in your semi-synthetic oil , for just Rs 30 more than the same mineral oil .
All I say ( and ever maintained ) is semi-syntheitc oils do not provide an extension of drain interval over an equivalent mineral oil . You can actually harm the engine by doing that . I myself am running Gulf full-synthetic 10w30 oil ( Rs 300 ) , but I shall surely drain it at 2000Kms or 4 months , whichever comes earlier .
Better ride quality ? Yes that is possible and I don't refute that . But if your engine is feeling harsh after 300-400 kms of an oil fill , with ANY darn oil , it is not because of the oil .
Never went against mineral oils.Royal Enfield Bullet Standard 350cc 1989, Bajaj Avenger 200-2009, Pulsar 200 NS 2015.Comment
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IOC xtra premium had those friction modifiers.. ride was smooth with it in all my steedsOriginally posted by B7ACKTHORN View PostCan't help but love every second reading this thread. So forget calcium sulfonate in wet clutch engines and molybdenum disulfide in car. So this pellet of mixed metals used in fuel reservoir, doesn't it mean bufurcating it as an additive in fuel as opposed to oil mean any benefits?
I mean essentially what this does is help reduce friction directly in the cylinder walls as opposed to Moly clinging to clutch in the form of oil additive and slip right, then I want this darn pellet.
Cheers!
VJ
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I was thinking to change from Bajaj Engine oil to some AfterMarket OilFirst I was Scared But then We Made a Deal
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