Engine Oils

[indian07_blood]

Dude, Why dont you stick to Service centre oil atleast for 2 services or 2000km.If you want to really change , Castrol is available at that rating 20W50(ACTIV XTRA - 20W-50 Mineral oil).

Its not available anymore.

[gotlo]

Dude, Why dont you stick to Service centre oil atleast for 2 services or 2000km.If you want to really change , Castrol is available at that rating 20W50(ACTIV XTRA - 20W-50 Mineral oil).

bro, i checked in atleast 7-8 shops/dealers across two regions in delhi which are full of service centres , all they have in 20w50 castrol is gtx which is a car oil..
im thinkin of changin coz this oil that they changed at first service has resulted in hard gearshifts n engine isnt revving smoothly..
have got my carb settings adjusted , done with co test etc too, everything else is fine except for the oil.. its been only 380 kms im runnin on this new oil and its already behaving like a 2k km old oil . For that matter it wasnt good even at the start.

[gotlo]

Well the sooner you change to FS the better it is. You can change to SS if it seems skeptic to you. Mr. Ashish is stockist of Motul in Delhi. You can call him and he will help you to find the shop near you or even may deliver it to you.

ok will call him tomorrow are you sure changing to synth wouldnt hinder runnin in? logicaly speaking it shouldnt .. wary of it just coz any damage done now would be irrepairable :P
btw, whats your name? it sounds funny adressing you "hindustani khoon"

[indian07_blood]

ok will call him tomorrow are you sure changing to synth wouldnt hinder runnin in? logicaly speaking it shouldnt .. wary of it just coz any damage done now would be irrepairable :P
btw, whats your name? it sounds funny adressing you "hindustani khoon"

lol, I am Shantonil ..call me shaan if its easier for you ..semi synth or FS won't damage your engine. I'm using it since 1st service actually. Now days some cars comes with FS from factory. One thing you should take care is never ever switch back to normal once your engine tasted the FS..



As there are still discussions going on about use of FS on new engines. You can go for motul 5100 semi synthetic. Its basically mineral oil with added lubes to make your engine good. It will be a good option. FS do have high amount of detergent in them which can prevent engine sealing properly during the braking-in but then its just an unproven theory. Stick to svc provided oil or switch to motul 5100 for a safer side. ..

[honda_vings]

hey guyz
just got my hands on zic 4t full synthetic
still 500 km left on my petronas before switching
but a 200ml x 2 top-ups wid zic gave me much better response then the petronas 5000 4t
got it for Rs. 450(mrp Rs. 475)
ne other guy has got 1st hand xperience on this oil
it says vhvi base oil which xceeds the performace levels of api group 3 and with proper additive chemistry can give performance levels of that of esters.
I can get this oil for faridabad people
ne1 interested, plz tell me
or pm me for more details
for details visit this site;
www.sklubricants.com

[gotlo]

lol, I am Shantonil ..call me shaan if its easier for you ..semi synth or FS won't damage your engine. I'm using it since 1st service actually. Now days some cars comes with FS from factory. One thing you should take care is never ever switch back to normal once your engine tasted the FS..



As there are still discussions going on about use of FS on new engines. You can go for motul 5100 semi synthetic. Its basically mineral oil with added lubes to make your engine good. It will be a good option. FS do have high amount of detergent in them which can prevent engine sealing properly during the braking-in but then its just an unproven theory. Stick to svc provided oil or switch to motul 5100 for a safer side. ..

hi calm-blue im sumantra (pronounced shoe-mon-tro ) your motul guy dint recieve my call im gonna try kirti nagar bajaj as last option today.. im bored of riding alone : / u wanna join?

[anmol_1990]

i would like to know that the engine oil used by hero honda for zma-r and zmr is rated at 10W30 ....

so is this oil Semi-Synthetic or Mineral oil..................

shud i stick to stock oil or change to some other like castrol, motul etc....


my zma-r has done 4500 km and zmr has done 5100 km.

pls guide

[sarbanoxley]

Called MR Gaurav he too says motul india doesnt import 10W 40 in semi synthetic.... only fully synthetic 300V is available in that grade.

i would like to know that the engine oil used by hero honda for zma-r and zmr is rated at 10W30 ....

so is this oil Semi-Synthetic or Mineral oil..................

shud i stick to stock oil or change to some other like castrol, motul etc....


my zma-r has done 4500 km and zmr has done 5100 km.

pls guide

In 10W 30 grade you can blindly go for Mini motul (Gulf) its a semi.. i am using it for the past 1000Kms... way better than any dinosaur oil of the same grade.

[N-o-v-i-c-e]

Hi raccoon......hey buddy....last time you had given me the mobile no. of the Motul executive in Pune....thnx again for that....
but could you tell me the location of the shops which stock Motul oils....me and my friends need some....
also we would check out other brands too....
Hence i am asking you if u can tell the address of any motul stockist in Pune....if you know him then all the better...
cheers....

P.S. I tried sending u a PM but it didnt accept....
Anybody in Pune know a Motul shop????

[indian07_blood]

P.S. I tried sending u a PM but it didnt accept....
Anybody in Pune know a Motul shop????

Try planetdsg.com
they have it in stock at their pune showroom.

Called MR Gaurav he too says motul india doesnt import 10W 40 in semi synthetic.... only fully synthetic 300V is available in that grade.



In 10W 30 grade you can blindly go for Mini motul (Gulf) its a semi.. i am using it for the past 1000Kms... way better than any dinosaur oil of the same grade.

Eish man!! Bad luck.....Maybe you should change your bike to experience FS in india lol .....Lets do some more research about it. You can try to make set up with guys who have similar requirement and can make separate thread for it (If mods allow) and then give the bulk order..

hi calm-blue im sumantra (pronounced shoe-mon-tro ) your motul guy dint recieve my call im gonna try kirti nagar bajaj as last option today.. im bored of riding alone : / u wanna join?

haha you really like to change the name in english-hindi and back huh . Where do you stay???...We can look out together as I'm going to buy a lid.

[sarbanoxley]

Just found this awesome thread on oil on a ducati forum posting it for info:

1)Are synthetic really synthetic?

Oil gurus reply:

Yes, we have discussed the misleading Castrol "synthetic" position for some time. It was especially discouraging here in the U.S. where the original Syntec was indeed a Group IV full, real, synthetic. When Castrol found that they could market Syntec as a group III, label it as a synthetic and get away with it, they of course did just that. And did not change a thing on the Castrol Syntec bottle. Still read "Synthetic". Base oil costs for a Group IV synthetic are in the $12 and up region. Base oil costs for a Group III oil are in the $3.00 region. KaaaChing, big time!! Happy Castrol accountants, happy Castrol Executives but the unknowing public is not getting the product they thought they were purchasing...

As for a dry lake racer. In that case one's priorities need to be examined. If engine/gearbox life is not the #1 priority and horsepower alone is, then, by all means, the lower the viscosity of the synthetic oil, more horsepower will be produced.. Churning a 20Wor 30W requires a lot less energy than churning a 40W or 50W. The component life will simply not be what it would with the optimal engine oil viscosity..
George Morrison, STLE CLS

2)Using 50W grade when the recommended is 40W?
Oil guru’s answer:
If you had taken time to review the 30+ pages of discussion, your questions would have already been answered very clearly and succinctly. The viscosity recommendations as they relate to ambient temperature in the Ducati manuals are for mineral based oils.

I would offer the following quick correlation for my 10W-40 recommendation irrespective of ambient temperatures.
When an airliner takes off from Chicago, Ill, with a destination of Nome, Alaska, then departs Nome for a destination in Arabia, the turbine engines will experience ambient temperatures ranging from 100+F degrees to 30 below zero F. Airlines do not change engine oils predicated on ambient temperatures; they do not need to. The Group V turbine engine oil is essentially temperature stable, maintaining its 5W viscosity irrespective of ambient temperatures.
The same is true for a motorcycle engine blended with a Group IV or V base stock..
We want to optimize our operational viscosity and we can do this with a group IV/V synthetic.
A 50W viscosity creates heat, robs horsepower, and does not provide optimal lubrication for our engines.

I would propose to you that 99% of the regular readers of this thread posess more lubricant knowledge than 90% of the technicians and dealers in the field. And I kindly suggest you read this thread in its entirety; you will then be lecturing to your technies...

George Morrison, STLE CLS

3)Running a grade 30W in place of 40W?

Oil guru’s reply:
Unfortunately anyone who has run the dino tests is keeping it quite secret and is their "edge" vs. their competitors. As in motorcycling, everything is a give and take, a 'balance' of what one's priorities are. If our priority is long engine and transmission, good power and efficiency, then the Group IV/V synthetic 10W-40 is the primary viscosity consideration. However, if live is not the primary consideration, then it is viscosity, pure and simple. The viscometrics of churning a 40W vs. a 20W are very simple. The lower the viscosity, the lower the expended horsepower. Thus the use of a 0W-20 or 0W-30 energy conserving synthetic will provide some level of horsepower increase, with attendant shortening of engine/component life vs. the optimal 10W-40 viscosity.

Some automobile racing types are using the 0W-20 for qualifying, then going to the 0W-30 for a 500 mile race.. The engines are built with a 30W Group IV?V viscosity clearance in mind. But, again, no one is releasing those dyno numbers as they are their secret weapons for the competition...
Yes, we may well see a trend toward lighter viscosities in motorcycle engine/bearboxes. As we have discussed at length, thinner viscosity can translate into increased horsepower, decrease in heat generation with the caveat of having *an engine and transmission designed for that lighter viscosity lubricant*. Honda (and others) spearheaded the lower viscosity oils in their automobile engines and have demonstrated that with components designed for a lower viscosity oil, engine longevity is not an issue and increased fuel efficiency and net power are welcombed benefits. i.e. win/win with no downside IF designed as such.

Some Honda automotive engines designed for a 20W simply balk and run roughly with the use of a heavier viscosity oil; when returned to the 20W, run as a Rolex watch...
Certainly a trend of the future...


Yes, Honda/Acura have re-designed for lower viscosity engine oils, as have other manufacturers. They have tightened clearances and adjusted flows for the 20W oils. And are enjoying the viscometric advantages yielding increased engine efficiencies without sacrificing engine longevity. And yes, there have been some manufacturers who have just done the Parker Pen CAFE increase by just specking the lower vis without having made any changes to the engine internals. In those cases engine life has been sacrificed for the power of the pen and resultant significant manufacture savings on CAFE mileage due to the glitch in computation with cold weather bias...

Yes, you are correct and you are correct... Some manufacturers have, some have not...
George Morrison, STLE CLS

4)Can I use 50W grade synthetic in place of 40W grade?
Oil guru answers:
We are splitting hairs in the discussion of a full, real Group IV/V synthetic 40W vs 50W discussions. We have been discussing "optimal" viscosities.. The use of a heavier viscosity Group IV or V will not create issues, , will provide superb lubrication but as for increasing connecting rod bearing life, tough call. Rod and main bearing life is particularly affected by a too heavy viscosity in that we can experience the inability of the fluid to "keep up" with the surface speed differential that could exist during high revolution operations. We can experience fluid "shear" where the thicker oil actually loses its coherency, losing its viscosity for just a moment, allowing metal to metal to occur. As we previously discussed, 99% of our lubrication is hydrodynamic, i.e. the guy wake-boarding behind the Goodyear Aqua Tred car on 1/4 inch of water..
So, we try to use the "optimum" viscosity to achieve the best hydrodynamic fluid balance, the highest fluid strength and a viscosity which will in turn protect against speed differential shearing.

Alll diesel engines use an XXW-40W oil. These are relatively low speed engines, turning a maximum 2,100 rpms in most applications. However, the difference in fuel burn is huge. In a gasoline engine, fuel is ignited by the spark plug and results in the fuel air mixture "burn" process. A relatively "soft" energy dispersion. In a diesel engine the ignition is a result of heat and pressure, resulting in a literal "explosion". This produces a violent initial thrust that can literally crush a connecting rod bearing where a low viscosity oil may be present (fuel dilution). Note that most every diesel engine manufactrured, the optimum viscosity recommendation is an xxW-40W. The 40W handles a 1,000+ horsepower diesel engine violent combustion process just fine. Connecting rod bearings can live to 1,000,000+ miles...
My case is that our 40W is one very robust viscosity, certainly capable of handfling the stress of a relatively "soft" burn process, for those engines that designate an xxW-40 as recommended oil. I have seen far more connecting rod bearings showing signs of stress from using too high a viscosity vs. too low a viscosity. Most engine failure that I do tear-down failure analysis are of course mechanical but in those few that really are purely lubricant related (not from fuel dilution, anti-freeze or other) are a result of the bearing speeds exceeeding the oil viscosity and its aility to "keep up" with the bearing speed differentials.. Synthetic oil has some incredible level of film strength, demonstrated in its ability to protect turbine bearings and gearboxes that normally run in the 38,000 rpm level, with 5 weight viscosity. For tens of thousands of hours. For an engine that is required an XXW-50W, then that is the oil to use.

And a re-remind that there are synthetics and there are those quasi-synthetics.......
George Morrrison, STLE CLS

5)Are group V oils better than group IV?
Oil gurus reply:
Regarding wear differenced between Group IV an Group V oils. Honestly, we would be examining the differendes in the measurement of split hairs. All of these oils provide a level of lubrication that is so clearly superior that this 'creme de la cremed' group of oils is just that..
Of course Amsoil has their "white papers" indicating advantages in tests which have little or no correlation to real world application but, again, all of the mentioned Group IV/V oils are simply superb...
George Morrison, STLE CLS

6)Should I warmp up before hitting the road?

Oil guru’s reply:

Regarding oil warm up, etc. You are correct in that with our wonderful Group IV/V full synthetic oils, there is no need to "warm up" the oil. The viscosity is going to be essentially the same on start up as it is at operating temperatures. However, your difficulty with accepting starting up and immediately running/riding is well founded. We need to now allow the internal metals time to warm. Bearings, rings, cylinder walls, all need a few minutes of heat soaking, to perform and provide proper clearances, etc. So, a few minuetes of idle, followed by a bit of "taking it easy" would be highly recommended to allow for progressive heat soak to occur. But all the while, all internals are going to be immediately well lubricated.....
Excellent Question, and thank you.....
George Morrison, STLE CLS

7)For viscosity, if 10-40 is better than 20-50, would 10-30 be even better?

Oil gurus reply:

No, we want the viscosity that our engines/gearboxes have been built for, to provide optimize the film thickness all of the time, in all rev ranges. In an engine designed for a XXW-40, it could be possible to exceed the EHL (hydrodynamic) range of an XXW-30 weight oil. Which could result in accelerated engine wear, best case, possible film failure with attendant scoring/gouging/failure... In those Ducati engines where an XXW-50 is Ducati recommended in the manual, then XXW-50 it is. Optimization of viscosity is the name of the game.

2. "I've heard of problems with Mobil full synthetic 15-50 causing slippage in wet clutches. Would a synthetic blend or even the dino variety be better for wet clutches? If so, would an automotive type be ok? eg. Valvoline?"
It is not the synthetic oil which would cause slippage issues but the use of an automotive friction modified oil (fuel consumption reduction additives). These friction reducing additives can indeed cause clutch slippage issues. However, the use of motorcycle specific synthetic oils will enable wet clutches to in fact work better than a comparable mineral based oil as synthetic base stocks disappate heat at a much higher rate than mineral based oils. Thus clutch action is more consistent and with the lower heats generated, clutch facing materials life can be greatly extended.
As previously discussed, most high performance automatic transmissions use full synthetic ATF's for these same reasons..
The old wive's tale that "synthetics are slipprier" is and is not true. When it comes to clutch facings, the synthetic base stock has the same "lubricity" factor as an unadditized mineral based oil. We just need to use synthetic lubricants that have been formulated for their ultimate use. i.e. most synthetic motorcycle specific oils clearly state on their labels that they provide superior performance in wet clutch applications.

The Mobil 1's of the XXW-50 viscosity will certainly "work", just not as optimally as the 10W-40, as we have discussed previously on the thread.. If your owner's manual (and engine/transmission) is recommending a 10W-40, then using an XXW-50 will result in slight (but "feelable") horsepower loss and slightly higher operating temperatures vs. the use of the 10W-40.
Any variation in oil viscosity from Ducati's primary recomendations will result in less than maximum engine/gearbox performance and elevated engine/gearbox temperatures from what could be achieved. However, we are only talking deviations from optimum; they will work just fine as lubricants.......
George Morrison, STLE CLS


8)Air cooled engines?
Gurus reply:
Re: My air cooled 1000DS manual calls for a 10W40. An XXW-50W is potentially going to create *more* heat and the air cooled relies on the oil for roughly 40% of its heat dissapation.. i.e. the water cooled can much better deal with heat as it has air, coolant and oil to carry heat away... Thus from an objective lube perspective, the air cooled would be more optimally lubed and cooled with a full synthetic XXW-40. Another important point is that a full synthetic engine oil dissapates heat at roughly twice the rate of a mineral based equivalent. Enabling a signifcantly cooler running engine, transmission...
George Morrison, STLE CLS

9)Trend towards low viscocity oils?
Gurus answer:
Mobil V-Twin can certainly be used in our engines. However, with such a heavy operational viscosity, horsepower loss and heat will be the two by-products. I know this sounds strange but in racing applications we really do not stress an optimal viscosity engine oil. 99% of the lubrication in our engines is hydrodynamic lubrication. Hydrodynamic lubrication is where the person is water skiing on a very thin water film being pulled by a vehicle equipped with Goodyear Aquatread tires. In areas where one would think would not be hydrodynamic such as camshafts, valves, it is still metal floating on an oil film; hydrodynamic lubrication. So, even in racing applications, as long as we have the oil viscosity in the engine that it was designed for, we will then achieve maximum horsepower, best engine cooling and performance using the lowest optimal viscosity engine oil. On a dyno, one can see as much as 1 to 3 horsepower gain from just engine oil viscosity change. Which is why 99% of all NASCAR engines are running a 0W-30 engine oil. Same with Formula 1, Grand am, etc. are all reducing operational viscosities. Two years ago all the Grand Am racers were having heating issues at Daytona 24 as it was unusually warm. Except one. All of the Toyota engined cars were running Mobil 1 15W-50 except one which was running Mobil 1R 0W-30. It finished 3rd and the others were waay back, laps down. . For these same reasons we have been discussing they are changing from their previous 50W and 60W mineral oils to lower viscosity full synthetic engine oils.
Driving short distances, stop and go, will stress engine oil far more than racing applications.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

10) how long can we now go with these super base stocks and additive packages?
Oil gurus reply:
As our discussion has evolved, we have shear resistant base stocks, high performance additive packages, oxidative resistant lubricants but the oils are still subject to contamination from the power cycle and gear box wear. You have heard for years about doubling, tripling ODI's with synthetic oils vs. a mineral based engine oil in autos. The most significant need for changing oils IS contamination. Synthetic lubricants have the capabilities to last *much* longer than a mineral based oil but are still subject to the same contamination issues that confront mineral based oils. However, one of the prime sources of contamination is blow-by. Even in a very new, tight engine we will get some level of blow-by occuring; exhaust by-product gasses are going to get into the engine oil. Exhaust gasses will bring all manner of contaminates ranging from acids, soot, water, and even raw gasoline. With a full Group IV or V synthetic base stock, we do have significantly lower levels of combustion by-product contamination. Piston rings require an oil film for their sealing action. At & near top dead center the cylinder walls are at constant elevated temperatures. Mineral based oils continually burn off, leaving the top 1/4 to 1/2 inch of cylinder wall essentially dry, with no oil film. If you have ever overhauled a gasoline engine with many miles on it you can many times actually see this area of high wear. Correspondingly, with no oil film, blow-by occurs until the rings encounter the oil film on their trip down the cylinder wall. With the oil film, sealing then occurs. Synthetic base stocks will live at higher temps and provide an oil film nearly to TDC, thus providing an oil film for the rings to seal. Thus when ignition occurs, the rings have an oil film, seal, and very little blow-by occurs. Additionally, this is where the measurable power increase at the rear wheel occurs with synthetic engine oils. One can actually *feel* the difference in performance with the right hand! We are now deriving all of the power from combustion. And our engine oil is staying much cleaner as blow-by is greatly reduced, easily enabling doubling, and even longer ODI's on automotive/truck applications.
That said, unfortunately we have a gearbox to contend with and some Ducati have wet clutches. Both of these components add a large amount contaminants to our oil, which will create wear. Especially the gearbox as the steel wear metals will be a super abrasive for any yellow metal in our engines.. Sooo, bottom line. Yes, we could theoretically significantly extend our ODI's with the oil's capaibilities but are very much limited with the high level of contaminants the oil gets from the gearbox and clutch (if wet). So regular ODI's are in order. Hey, it's only 3 or 4 quarts.. :-)

A method to *know* what is taking place in an engine is to run an engine oil analysis to determine contaminant levels. Oil analysis is the method we use for cars, trucks and off highway equipment to determine optimum ODI intervals. In some cases we have over the road trucks going 100,000 miles between changes (filter at 50,000), with oil analysis being the driver. Then one *knows* exactly what is going on in the engine. Oil analysis kits are relatively inexpensive ($15 or so) and invaluable in determining engine status. Like taking a walk inside your engine.

George Morrison, STLE CLS

Link to the above info:

Motor Oil - Ducati Monster Forums: Ducati Monster Motorcycle Forum

went through the whole thread pretty informative

[honda_vings]

The article is definitely informative
But i had read all that earlier also
This is what they are missing ;
Even mineral oils can perform like group 4 and group 5 oils by some of the new emerging extraction technologies
For e.g. YUBASE oil also known as vhvi(Very High Viscosity Index) is a mineral base oil which performs much better then group 3 base oils very close to group 4 base oils
A good additive chemistry can even take the ultra-refined mineral oils close to group 5 oils .
I think the synthetic oil makers will soon have to pull up thier socks to compete with these oils ,mainly because they will give synthetic-like performance and that too at a very low price compared to synthetics.

[abhichotu.abhi]

Just found this awesome thread on oil on a ducati forum posting it for info:

1)Are synthetic really synthetic?

Oil gurus reply:

Yes, we have discussed the misleading Castrol "synthetic" position for some time. It was especially discouraging here in the U.S. where the original Syntec was indeed a Group IV full, real, synthetic. When Castrol found that they could market Syntec as a group III, label it as a synthetic and get away with it, they of course did just that. And did not change a thing on the Castrol Syntec bottle. Still read "Synthetic". Base oil costs for a Group IV synthetic are in the $12 and up region. Base oil costs for a Group III oil are in the $3.00 region. KaaaChing, big time!! Happy Castrol accountants, happy Castrol Executives but the unknowing public is not getting the product they thought they were purchasing...

As for a dry lake racer. In that case one's priorities need to be examined. If engine/gearbox life is not the #1 priority and horsepower alone is, then, by all means, the lower the viscosity of the synthetic oil, more horsepower will be produced.. Churning a 20Wor 30W requires a lot less energy than churning a 40W or 50W. The component life will simply not be what it would with the optimal engine oil viscosity..
George Morrison, STLE CLSIf you had taken time to review the 30+ pages of discussion, your questions would have already been answered very clearly and succinctly. The viscosity recommendations as they relate to ambient temperature in the Ducati manuals are for mineral based oils.

I would offer the following quick correlation for my 10W-40 recommendation irrespective of ambient temperatures.
When an airliner takes off from Chicago, Ill, with a destination of Nome, Alaska, then departs Nome for a destination in Arabia, the turbine engines will experience ambient temperatures ranging from 100+F degrees to 30 below zero F. Airlines do not change engine oils predicated on ambient temperatures; they do not need to. The Group V turbine engine oil is essentially temperature stable, maintaining its 5W viscosity irrespective of ambient temperatures.
The same is true for a motorcycle engine blended with a Group IV or V base stock..
We want to optimize our operational viscosity and we can do this with a group IV/V synthetic.
A 50W viscosity creates heat, robs horsepower, and does not provide optimal lubrication for our engines.

I would propose to you that 99% of the regular readers of this thread posess more lubricant knowledge than 90% of the technicians and dealers in the field. And I kindly suggest you read this thread in its entirety; you will then be lecturing to your technies...

George Morrison, STLE CLS

3)Running a grade 30W in place of 40W?


Unfortunately anyone who has run the dino tests is keeping it quite secret and is their "edge" vs. their competitors. As in motorcycling, everything is a give and take, a 'balance' of what one's priorities are. If our priority is long engine and transmission, good power and efficiency, then the Group IV/V synthetic 10W-40 is the primary viscosity consideration. However, if live is not the primary consideration, then it is viscosity, pure and simple. The viscometrics of churning a 40W vs. a 20W are very simple. The lower the viscosity, the lower the expended horsepower. Thus the use of a 0W-20 or 0W-30 energy conserving synthetic will provide some level of horsepower increase, with attendant shortening of engine/component life vs. the optimal 10W-40 viscosity.

Some automobile racing types are using the 0W-20 for qualifying, then going to the 0W-30 for a 500 mile race.. The engines are built with a 30W Group IV?V viscosity clearance in mind. But, again, no one is releasing those dyno numbers as they are their secret weapons for the competition...
Yes, we may well see a trend toward lighter viscosities in motorcycle engine/bearboxes. As we have discussed at length, thinner viscosity can translate into increased horsepower, decrease in heat generation with the caveat of having *an engine and transmission designed for that lighter viscosity lubricant*. Honda (and others) spearheaded the lower viscosity oils in their automobile engines and have demonstrated that with components designed for a lower viscosity oil, engine longevity is not an issue and increased fuel efficiency and net power are welcombed benefits. i.e. win/win with no downside IF designed as such.

Some Honda automotive engines designed for a 20W simply balk and run roughly with the use of a heavier viscosity oil; when returned to the 20W, run as a Rolex watch...
Certainly a trend of the future...


Yes, Honda/Acura have re-designed for lower viscosity engine oils, as have other manufacturers. They have tightened clearances and adjusted flows for the 20W oils. And are enjoying the viscometric advantages yielding increased engine efficiencies without sacrificing engine longevity. And yes, there have been some manufacturers who have just done the Parker Pen CAFE increase by just specking the lower vis without having made any changes to the engine internals. In those cases engine life has been sacrificed for the power of the pen and resultant significant manufacture savings on CAFE mileage due to the glitch in computation with cold weather bias...

Yes, you are correct and you are correct... Some manufacturers have, some have not...
George Morrison, STLE CLS

4)Can I use 50W grade synthetic in place of 40W grade?
Oil guru answers:
We are splitting hairs in the discussion of a full, real Group IV/V synthetic 40W vs 50W discussions. We have been discussing "optimal" viscosities.. The use of a heavier viscosity Group IV or V will not create issues, , will provide superb lubrication but as for increasing connecting rod bearing life, tough call. Rod and main bearing life is particularly affected by a too heavy viscosity in that we can experience the inability of the fluid to "keep up" with the surface speed differential that could exist during high revolution operations. We can experience fluid "shear" where the thicker oil actually loses its coherency, losing its viscosity for just a moment, allowing metal to metal to occur. As we previously discussed, 99% of our lubrication is hydrodynamic, i.e. the guy wake-boarding behind the Goodyear Aqua Tred car on 1/4 inch of water..
So, we try to use the "optimum" viscosity to achieve the best hydrodynamic fluid balance, the highest fluid strength and a viscosity which will in turn protect against speed differential shearing.

Alll diesel engines use an XXW-40W oil. These are relatively low speed engines, turning a maximum 2,100 rpms in most applications. However, the difference in fuel burn is huge. In a gasoline engine, fuel is ignited by the spark plug and results in the fuel air mixture "burn" process. A relatively "soft" energy dispersion. In a diesel engine the ignition is a result of heat and pressure, resulting in a literal "explosion". This produces a violent initial thrust that can literally crush a connecting rod bearing where a low viscosity oil may be present (fuel dilution). Note that most every diesel engine manufactrured, the optimum viscosity recommendation is an xxW-40W. The 40W handles a 1,000+ horsepower diesel engine violent combustion process just fine. Connecting rod bearings can live to 1,000,000+ miles...
My case is that our 40W is one very robust viscosity, certainly capable of handfling the stress of a relatively "soft" burn process, for those engines that designate an xxW-40 as recommended oil. I have seen far more connecting rod bearings showing signs of stress from using too high a viscosity vs. too low a viscosity. Most engine failure that I do tear-down failure analysis are of course mechanical but in those few that really are purely lubricant related (not from fuel dilution, anti-freeze or other) are a result of the bearing speeds exceeeding the oil viscosity and its aility to "keep up" with the bearing speed differentials.. Synthetic oil has some incredible level of film strength, demonstrated in its ability to protect turbine bearings and gearboxes that normally run in the 38,000 rpm level, with 5 weight viscosity. For tens of thousands of hours. For an engine that is required an XXW-50W, then that is the oil to use.

And a re-remind that there are synthetics and there are those quasi-synthetics.......
George Morrrison, STLE CLS

5)Are group V oils better than group IV?
Oil gurus reply:
Regarding wear differenced between Group IV an Group V oils. Honestly, we would be examining the differendes in the measurement of split hairs. All of these oils provide a level of lubrication that is so clearly superior that this 'creme de la cremed' group of oils is just that..
Of course Amsoil has their "white papers" indicating advantages in tests which have little or no correlation to real world application but, again, all of the mentioned Group IV/V oils are simply superb...
George Morrison, STLE CLS

6)Should I warmp up before hitting the road?



Regarding oil warm up, etc. You are correct in that with our wonderful Group IV/V full synthetic oils, there is no need to "warm up" the oil. The viscosity is going to be essentially the same on start up as it is at operating temperatures. However, your difficulty with accepting starting up and immediately running/riding is well founded. We need to now allow the internal metals time to warm. Bearings, rings, cylinder walls, all need a few minutes of heat soaking, to perform and provide proper clearances, etc. So, a few minuetes of idle, followed by a bit of "taking it easy" would be highly recommended to allow for progressive heat soak to occur. But all the while, all internals are going to be immediately well lubricated.....
Excellent Question, and thank you.....
George Morrison, STLE CLS

7)For viscosity, if 10-40 is better than 20-50, would 10-30 be even better?

Oil gurus reply:

No, we want the viscosity that our engines/gearboxes have been built for, to provide optimize the film thickness all of the time, in all rev ranges. In an engine designed for a XXW-40, it could be possible to exceed the EHL (hydrodynamic) range of an XXW-30 weight oil. Which could result in accelerated engine wear, best case, possible film failure with attendant scoring/gouging/failure... In those Ducati engines where an XXW-50 is Ducati recommended in the manual, then XXW-50 it is. Optimization of viscosity is the name of the game.

2. "I've heard of problems with Mobil full synthetic 15-50 causing slippage in wet clutches. Would a synthetic blend or even the dino variety be better for wet clutches? If so, would an automotive type be ok? eg. Valvoline?"
It is not the synthetic oil which would cause slippage issues but the use of an automotive friction modified oil (fuel consumption reduction additives). These friction reducing additives can indeed cause clutch slippage issues. However, the use of motorcycle specific synthetic oils will enable wet clutches to in fact work better than a comparable mineral based oil as synthetic base stocks disappate heat at a much higher rate than mineral based oils. Thus clutch action is more consistent and with the lower heats generated, clutch facing materials life can be greatly extended.
As previously discussed, most high performance automatic transmissions use full synthetic ATF's for these same reasons..
The old wive's tale that "synthetics are slipprier" is and is not true. When it comes to clutch facings, the synthetic base stock has the same "lubricity" factor as an unadditized mineral based oil. We just need to use synthetic lubricants that have been formulated for their ultimate use. i.e. most synthetic motorcycle specific oils clearly state on their labels that they provide superior performance in wet clutch applications.

The Mobil 1's of the XXW-50 viscosity will certainly "work", just not as optimally as the 10W-40, as we have discussed previously on the thread.. If your owner's manual (and engine/transmission) is recommending a 10W-40, then using an XXW-50 will result in slight (but "feelable") horsepower loss and slightly higher operating temperatures vs. the use of the 10W-40.
Any variation in oil viscosity from Ducati's primary recomendations will result in less than maximum engine/gearbox performance and elevated engine/gearbox temperatures from what could be achieved. However, we are only talking deviations from optimum; they will work just fine as lubricants.......
George Morrison, STLE CLS


8)Air cooled engines?
Gurus reply:
Re: My air cooled 1000DS manual calls for a 10W40. An XXW-50W is potentially going to create *more* heat and the air cooled relies on the oil for roughly 40% of its heat dissapation.. i.e. the water cooled can much better deal with heat as it has air, coolant and oil to carry heat away... Thus from an objective lube perspective, the air cooled would be more optimally lubed and cooled with a full synthetic XXW-40. Another important point is that a full synthetic engine oil dissapates heat at roughly twice the rate of a mineral based equivalent. Enabling a signifcantly cooler running engine, transmission...
George Morrison, STLE CLS

9)Trend towards low viscocity oils?
Gurus answer:
Mobil V-Twin can certainly be used in our engines. However, with such a heavy operational viscosity, horsepower loss and heat will be the two by-products. I know this sounds strange but in racing applications we really do not stress an optimal viscosity engine oil. 99% of the lubrication in our engines is hydrodynamic lubrication. Hydrodynamic lubrication is where the person is water skiing on a very thin water film being pulled by a vehicle equipped with Goodyear Aquatread tires. In areas where one would think would not be hydrodynamic such as camshafts, valves, it is still metal floating on an oil film; hydrodynamic lubrication. So, even in racing applications, as long as we have the oil viscosity in the engine that it was designed for, we will then achieve maximum horsepower, best engine cooling and performance using the lowest optimal viscosity engine oil. On a dyno, one can see as much as 1 to 3 horsepower gain from just engine oil viscosity change. Which is why 99% of all NASCAR engines are running a 0W-30 engine oil. Same with Formula 1, Grand am, etc. are all reducing operational viscosities. Two years ago all the Grand Am racers were having heating issues at Daytona 24 as it was unusually warm. Except one. All of the Toyota engined cars were running Mobil 1 15W-50 except one which was running Mobil 1R 0W-30. It finished 3rd and the others were waay back, laps down. . For these same reasons we have been discussing they are changing from their previous 50W and 60W mineral oils to lower viscosity full synthetic engine oils.
Driving short distances, stop and go, will stress engine oil far more than racing applications.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

10) how long can we now go with these super base stocks and additive packages?
Oil gurus reply:
As our discussion has evolved, we have shear resistant base stocks, high performance additive packages, oxidative resistant lubricants but the oils are still subject to contamination from the power cycle and gear box wear. You have heard for years about doubling, tripling ODI's with synthetic oils vs. a mineral based engine oil in autos. The most significant need for changing oils IS contamination. Synthetic lubricants have the capabilities to last *much* longer than a mineral based oil but are still subject to the same contamination issues that confront mineral based oils. However, one of the prime sources of contamination is blow-by. Even in a very new, tight engine we will get some level of blow-by occuring; exhaust by-product gasses are going to get into the engine oil. Exhaust gasses will bring all manner of contaminates ranging from acids, soot, water, and even raw gasoline. With a full Group IV or V synthetic base stock, we do have significantly lower levels of combustion by-product contamination. Piston rings require an oil film for their sealing action. At & near top dead center the cylinder walls are at constant elevated temperatures. Mineral based oils continually burn off, leaving the top 1/4 to 1/2 inch of cylinder wall essentially dry, with no oil film. If you have ever overhauled a gasoline engine with many miles on it you can many times actually see this area of high wear. Correspondingly, with no oil film, blow-by occurs until the rings encounter the oil film on their trip down the cylinder wall. With the oil film, sealing then occurs. Synthetic base stocks will live at higher temps and provide an oil film nearly to TDC, thus providing an oil film for the rings to seal. Thus when ignition occurs, the rings have an oil film, seal, and very little blow-by occurs. Additionally, this is where the measurable power increase at the rear wheel occurs with synthetic engine oils. One can actually *feel* the difference in performance with the right hand! We are now deriving all of the power from combustion. And our engine oil is staying much cleaner as blow-by is greatly reduced, easily enabling doubling, and even longer ODI's on automotive/truck applications.
That said, unfortunately we have a gearbox to contend with and some Ducati have wet clutches. Both of these components add a large amount contaminants to our oil, which will create wear. Especially the gearbox as the steel wear metals will be a super abrasive for any yellow metal in our engines.. Sooo, bottom line. Yes, we could theoretically significantly extend our ODI's with the oil's capaibilities but are very much limited with the high level of contaminants the oil gets from the gearbox and clutch (if wet). So regular ODI's are in order. Hey, it's only 3 or 4 quarts.. :-)

A method to *know* what is taking place in an engine is to run an engine oil analysis to determine contaminant levels. Oil analysis is the method we use for cars, trucks and off highway equipment to determine optimum ODI intervals. In some cases we have over the road trucks going 100,000 miles between changes (filter at 50,000), with oil analysis being the driver. Then one *knows* exactly what is going on in the engine. Oil analysis kits are relatively inexpensive ($15 or so) and invaluable in determining engine status. Like taking a walk inside your engine.

George Morrison, STLE CLS

Link to the above info:

Motor Oil - Ducati Monster Forums: Ducati Monster Motorcycle Forum

went through the whole thread pretty informative

Thanks.
Great Information, Cleared my 90% of queries.

[abhijeet080808]

@sarbanoxley - Very informative article. Thanks for sharing!

[kaynmantis]

Very informative post there. Make a lot od sense. However the more I learn about engine oil, someone would throw spanner on my notion and pffftt .

I have come to understand that GENERALLY it is recommended to use for example w40/50 in hot climate, and use w20/30 in cold climate. The post above, its says w50 will generate more heat.
Then why higher number are recommended for hotter climate? Oh yeah I read and understand about the engine design and tolerance and stuff like that. But my question arises because most information related to engine oil would recommend lower viscosity for cold climate and higher viscosity for hotter climate. Why?