Engine Oils

[Drifty]

Found this today , EP90 (sae90) gear oil from Veedol (tide water oil) in nice pouch pack of 500ml for Rs 80.00 only . It's available in EP140 (sae140) grade also in same pack in same price . Castrol's sae90 (now labeled GL4 in new bottle) is gone pricey @ Rs 120.00 for 500ml now , so I bought this one instead to use as chain lube as my old bottle is run out .
For information of those in calcutta, it's available at the oil shop at jadavpur just on Raja S C Mullick Road beside KPC Hospital (near 8B bus stand) .The shop's name is ESS Enterprise . They have good stock of motul / gulf / herohonda 4T (tide water made) and all the other oils too .

Thanks for updating Pinaki sir!I was searching for a good quality gear oil,was using Elf SAE90 gear oil,for a change will try Veedol this time

[shoeb2015]

Pinaki ji ,
Is it "OK" to use the used gear oil(Castrol Extreme Pressure 90)drained from my car's gear box ?
Btw, I have 3 ltrs of used gear oil.

[Pinaki]

No Shoeb'jee , I think that oil will contain metal dust from the car's gears and cause undue wear in your bike chain .
However it doesn't contain any other chemical etc effluents (unlike used engine oils) , so if you could filter it through an engine oil filter (used and cleaned puralator oil filter from the same car?), that used gear oil would make a good free chain lube for half the bikers of hyderabad .

[Honda_CBF]

No Shoeb'jee , I think that oil will contain metal dust from the car's gears and cause undue wear in your bike chain .
However it doesn't contain any other chemical etc effluents (unlike used engine oils) , so if you could filter it through an engine oil filter (used and cleaned puralator oil filter from the same car?), that used gear oil would make a good free chain lube for half the bikers of hyderabad .

but used gear oil won't be of sae90 grade. Its lower than that may be 40-50 something.. Meaning it won't stick to the chain for more than 10-12 days.

[Honda_CBF]

Gear oil + 4t??

Yesterday, i saw a mechanic pouring some gear oil into the bike's crankcase, about 100ml of it was used.
When asked, he replied oil burning will become less.
And guess what, it worked!!
Anybody tried this??

[Drifty]

Yesterday, i saw a mechanic pouring some gear oil into the bike's crankcase, about 100ml of it was used.
When asked, he replied oil burning will become less.
And guess what, it worked!!
Anybody tried this??

You mean the SAE90 gear oil??In what way it worked?

[shoeb2015]

You mean the SAE90 gear oil??In what way it worked?

Just a guess here.

"Maybe thicker oil provides better sealing of piston rings "

[sandeepcf]

Some mechanics use gear oil in engine oil to sell 2nd hand vehicles(esp. cars); this way the engine feels very smooth and its one way to deceive the buyer.

[Honda_CBF]

Just a guess here.

"Maybe thicker oil provides better sealing of piston rings "

me too thinking same..
@ Drifty,
this guy brought his smoking H.H passion. With lots of engine noise. Mechanic suggested him to get it re-bored.
But the guy asked him to do some 'jugaad' for time being. Then the mechanic came up with sae 80 gear oil (servo).
And the bike became smooth & silent with very little visible smoke after a sort ride.
.
@ all,
want to know pros & cons of doing this..

[shoeb2015]

me too thinking same..
@ Drifty,
this guy brought his smoking H.H passion. With lots of engine noise. Mechanic suggested him to get it re-bored.
But the guy asked him to do some 'jugaad' for time being. Then the mechanic came up with sae 80 gear oil (servo).
And the bike became smooth & silent with very little visible smoke after a sort ride.
.
@ all,
want to know pros & cons of doing this..

Cons.
Engine will wear out completely and faster as this oil has very high viscosity so it wont provide enough lubrication during cold starts.

-Engines vertical cylinder wear out more faster that engines with horizontal cylinders.
-OIL doesn't flow freely.
-Very-very Sluggish acceleration.
-Top end of engine might starve for oil.

Pros
Temporary jugaad to sell the bike for more price by fooling a non-experienced biker.
(Pre-owned two wheeler dealers use this trick to fool innocent people)

[Drifty]

me too thinking same..
@ Drifty,
this guy brought his smoking H.H passion. With lots of engine noise. Mechanic suggested him to get it re-bored.
But the guy asked him to do some 'jugaad' for time being. Then the mechanic came up with sae 80 gear oil (servo).
And the bike became smooth & silent with very little visible smoke after a sort ride.
.
@ all,
want to know pros & cons of doing this..

Cons.
Engine will wear out completely and faster as this oil has very high viscosity so it wont provide enough lubrication during cold starts.

-Engines vertical cylinder wear out more faster that engines with horizontal cylinders.
-OIL doesn't flow freely.
-Very-very Sluggish acceleration.
-Top end of engine might starve for oil.

+10.
1)Engine internal components will wear out faster
2)Oil filter will be clogged.Oil will not pass through the oil filter efficiently.
3)There is higher chance in oil pump getting damaged.
4)Clutch will tend to slip
5)Engine will not be rev friendly as before cause of the higher viscosity oil,hence less pick up.

The only pros is you will feel the engine 'ultra' smoother as in the case with any thick oil.

-Engines vertical cylinder wear out more faster that engines with horizontal cylinders.

True.In horizontal engine/sloper engine,the weight of the piston is carried by the cylinder liner,hence causing more wear at the lower side of piston and cylinder.One point here to note is,the oil flow will be more quicker in horizontal engine as compared to vertical engines.

[Pinaki]

Cons.
Engine will wear out completely and faster as this oil has very high viscosity so it wont provide enough lubrication during cold starts.
-Engines vertical cylinder wear out more faster that engines with horizontal cylinders.
-OIL doesn't flow freely.
-Very-very Sluggish acceleration.
-Top end of engine might starve for oil.
Pros
Temporary jugaad to sell the bike for more price by fooling a non-experienced biker.
(Pre-owned two wheeler dealers use this trick to fool innocent people)

At the risk of another great oil debate , well .. at least some of your fears may be unfounded . This is where the weight or thickness (in layman like me terms) or viscosity of the gear oil vs engine oil , resulting in poor circulation is concerned .

"Gear oil differs from motor oil. Most people assume that SAE 90 gear oil is much thicker than SAE 40 or 50 grade motor oil. However, they are the same viscosity. The difference is they are calculated by different classifications, SAE gear lube and SAE engine oil." - Kevin Dinwiddie , AMSOIL Drivetrain Specialist .C . Isn't it ?
In a motorcycle engine like ours, transmission(gear-train) is an integral part of the engine and bathed in the engine oil itself .... so in such engines what's engine oil/gear oil differentiation ? In our bikes we are using engine-oil as gear oil , no ? So Drifty'jee , why would engine components wear out any faster with just gear oil in a short use term? Clutch won't slip in it cause it doesn't contain any anti-friction additives like car oils , gears do need friction to engage and work and no one wants slippery gears . Oil filter will be fine , they are micron sized filters , way larger pores to stop any liquid oil molecules . Oil pumps seldom get damaged unless there is no oil at all and it's been running dry . Yes , revs will be slow and much parasitic drag would be present until the oil is warmed up fully .
i.e I do not envisage any major damage in a short period from such usage .

However engine oil and gear oils have totally different additive packages and components . Purely transmission(gear) oils, designed for engines that employ a gearbox separate from the engine's oil circulation (cars), doesn't contain any detergents etc to clean engine internals or absorb acids and combustion gases etc etc or deal with lots of heat stress . These are just a few problems I can think of , so using oils purely designed for gear(transmission) only as motor oil for long term is a big no no IMHO .

[Honda_CBF]

"Gear oil differs from motor oil. Most people assume that SAE 90 gear oil is much thicker than SAE 40 or 50 grade motor oil. However, they are the same viscosity. The difference is they are calculated by different classifications, SAE gear lube and SAE engine oil." - Kevin Dinwiddie , AMSOIL Drivetrain Specialist .C . Isn't it
.

didnt knew that..!! Thanks for educating me pinaki jee:-)
so the cons are different additive package, right? Which may not work very well in an engine (not including gearbox)
btw, it was 80 grade oil not 90. But it looked much much thicker than 20w40, any explanation why's that?? I'm not offending, just wanna know:-)

[ashwinprakas]

Didnt know HH Passion had an Oil filter. Even my "Premium Sports ZMA" doesnt have one.

[Pinaki]

Didnt know HH Passion had an Oil filter. Even my "Premium Sports ZMA" doesnt have one.

AFAIK Ashwin , your Kari(ZMA) has two ! Similar to the splendor/passion/CD and many other Honda made engines of that era. The first is a simple squarish oil-strainer in the circulation path . It shall stop stray nuts & bolts and metal etc bits from moving back into the engine's oil circulation . Second one is a centrifugal filter , integral with the clutch basket or next to it ... I think (haven't taken mine apart to see yet) .
Centrifugal filters are a brilliant & effective device, and according to me supercedes all the disposable-media filters we see in other bikes . This is because they do not depend on particle size to filter it . Pass-through media filters will stop only upto particles of a certain size . They cannot be made to stop very very small particle , cause then the pores will be so small as to pose significant slowdown of the oil passage too . Moreover they shall get clogged as more and more debris is collected with time, and must be disposed off for a new one. A centrifugal filter,on the other hand will arrest any particle that is heavier than the oil (which is almost anything I can think of) , irrespective of size or material, won't clog up or slowdown the oil circulation until the collected dirts volume exceeds it's capacity , and can be just cleaned off with petrol (no replacement cost) .
Only downside is that with the kari's engine (or splendor's) , you have to open the clutch-side engine case to access both these filters . Mechanics and service centers are reluctant to do this , and so many of these engines pass their entire life without oil filter cleaning . Amazingly they keep working just fine apparently and most owners don't even know about their presence although the owner's manuals specifies cleaning at the first-second service only . I think , this is a good testimony to their simplicity and effectiveness in use .
This is the cenrifugal filter in an old 125cc honda engine (source - www.dansmc.com/change_oil.htm) . Notice the crud along the edge of the round disc ..

didnt knew that..!! Thanks for educating me pinaki jee:-)
so the cons are different additive package, right? Which may not work very well in an engine (not including gearbox)
btw, it was 80 grade oil not 90. But it looked much much thicker than 20w40, any explanation why's that?? I'm not offending, just wanna know:-)

No no , actually I was quite astonished to find this info myself recently .
You are right , the difference lies in the additive package & base oil weight . Do not forget that a 20w40 is a 20 weight oil only (with some additives in it to prevent it run off at higher temps) . While the 90 weight gear oil is about 40 weight in engine oil terms , and is mono grade . So naturally 40wt oil(gear oil) will appear thicker than the 20wt(20w40) . An SAE80 gear oil will be nearer in viscosity to an SAE30-SAE35 weight engine oil . Still quite thicker than the 20wt based 20w40 .
Moreover one thing I've observed (not read anywhere) , is that some 20w40 oils appear thicker than other 20w40 while pouring etc . But then by the manufacturer's testing two 20w40 oils can't be different SAE viscosity grades , no ? So visual appearance of being thicker may not be an accurate indicator of it's SAE viscosity grade too , I think .