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Thread: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

  1. #101
    psr
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    Default Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

    Quote Originally Posted by aargee View Post
    Sir, his issue is one of a kind; haven't even heard about this issue till date & certainly not on mine; I guess this should occur only if the bike is left unused for few days. But even then, there're some folks (I know Sheel parked his for over a month) who've taken the bike after long parking & still haven't seen this issue.

    I guess its like CBR's engine seizure. Except mine, none other have experienced at that stage.
    Thanks for the post...it lets me share what other riders are going through internationally...

    Not Just CBR 250R but Owners of Fireblade, Cb/CX 500 , VTX 1800 ,are also plagued by Earth Loose contact problem. Not guessing but here are some links ...

    The Fireblade Thread on Earthing complaint ,and the VTX 1800 "Ground Fix"...Common ground earthing problems... Just some samples to make an interesting read .


    “Ground Fix” for VTX 1800 Bareass Choppers Motorcycle Tech Pages



    Why does my ground have 12 volts on it...? - Honda Motorcycles - FireBlades.org





    Battery Charging Problems .....



    The VTX1800 "Ground Fix Problem is very detailed, and explains how and why the Common earth corrotion/Loose contact takes place. The corrective steps are also note worthy

    Last edited by psr; 08-03-2015 at 03:45 PM.
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  2. #102
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    Icon14 Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

    Quote Originally Posted by psr View Post
    There are some more Findings and Experiments which @shv18 will share once he has time and also confirmation on results....

    Guess we will be seeing more members successfully ,trying out this Earthing wire Modification ,and share their experience here for all to benefit.

    If any glitches are found , please do post the same ,since it will let us all learn..esp me..since I am Keen to learn , and ever thankful for the opportunity.
    A big thanks to PSR sir and @shv18 for sharing such a valuable information regarding the earth wire modification,in fact i tried it on my bike just as a precautionary measure but i was in for a big surprise .....drastic improvement in low and and mid range....couldn't check the top end though, throttle response is much more sharper.

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  3. #103
    Immortal Riders! suhasn46's Avatar
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    Default Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

    Thank you for the extremely knowledgeable inputs on this thread.

    Through the latest discovery of the earthing wire 'mod', what I don't understand is, how can something as small as this 'boost' performance as significantly as 15% over stock. Does this mean all the bikes coming out of the factory have faulty earthing and the manufacturer isn't aware of it?

    To be more precise, I'm not quite sure if this is being categorised as an issue with the OP's bike or as a manufacturing defect that hinders the engine from delivering its maximum performance?

    Is this perceived improvement in performance subjective or is it quantified?

    I don't mean to sound demeaning to the efforts being put in and the knowledge shared here, so please don't take this negatively. I'm only trying to put a constructive argument on the table for the benefit of everybody.

    EDIT: Also, my CBR is running perfectly with no issues. What's the best way to find out if there is an issue at all? Apart from the trial of doing this mod.

    Regards
    Suhas

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    Last edited by suhasn46; 08-04-2015 at 12:54 AM.
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  4. #104
    psr
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    Default Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

    Quote Originally Posted by suhasn46 View Post
    Thank you for the extremely knowledgeable inputs on this thread.

    Through the latest discovery of the earthing wire 'mod', what I don't understand is, how can something as small as this 'boost' performance as significantly as 15% over stock. Does this mean all the bikes coming out of the factory have faulty earthing and the manufacturer isn't aware of it?

    To be more precise, I'm not quite sure if this is being categorised as an issue with the OP's bike or as a manufacturing defect that hinders the engine from delivering its maximum performance?

    Is this perceived improvement in performance subjective or is it quantified?

    I don't mean to sound demeaning to the efforts being put in and the knowledge shared here, so please don't take this negatively. I'm only trying to put a constructive argument on the table for the benefit of everybody.

    EDIT: Also, my CBR is running perfectly with no issues. What's the best way to find out if there is an issue at all? Apart from the trial of doing this mod.

    Regards
    Suhas

    Sent from my MI 3W using xBhp Connect mobile app
    Mr.Suhas, thank you for the post seeking clarification...
    The whole exercise of the add on Earth wire was a result of the thread starter's CBR250R failing totally due to Electrical fault.ie., bad Negative return or bad earth fault.. If you read the thread fully, you will notice that the bike was running perfectly before running into problem progressively....and you would also have noticed how only through systematic trouble shooting the actual problem was found.
    When the problem was solved through a Secondary Earthing by a direct wire from battery negative to the Earth wire cluster on the RR unit, there seems to be a betterment in the bike's engine behavior. ie., better low to mid performance.
    If you had gone through my reply to this, it will be clear that better earthing has been the reason....
    As to the claim of "Increased" performance, my feel is that the thread starter felt so since he had been facing bad Earth(-ve) problem causing lack of acceleration, including Misfires , and after a ride with problem sorted out felt , better acceleration due to better Negative return.So Definitely it is subjective.

    The amount of loose contact Before Wire connection will determine how much more the engine becomes responsive, post the wire connection.

    Another member had also tried and had better acceleration and is reported just a post before yours. His bike had no problems at all and he was also able to feel better acceleration.

    For any member to know if the CBR250 he owns has this problem or not, Simply start the engine and measure the Voltage between Battery Negative and the Green wire cluster on the RR unit.. any voltage read on the Digital Multimeter is an indication of Negative Return Fault. Depending on the Severity of Loose Contact the voltage will vary...ie., more loose contact= more voltage.( read the Fireblade owner wondering why there is 12V on his earth connection...a case of extreme loose contact.)

    This add on wire is not expensive, and prevents bad earth fault .

    The problem seems to involve other Honda bikes also, and I had given a link to some of them in my reply.

    The write up on the VTX 1800 is very well written with the cause ,and cure for the problem...

    The post and clarifications are to ensure that members facing bad Earthing(negative return) problems have a possible solution and are not stranded...
    Last edited by psr; 08-04-2015 at 10:21 AM.
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  5. #105
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    Default Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

    adding to that a few more points or issues that can crop up due to same earthing issue.

    1> engine sputter , low pickup
    2> random shutdowns, everything going blank ( can be one reason)
    3> electrical malfunction ( less/more voltage, loose contact)
    4> blown fuses.

    a small loose contact can literally end up being PITA and we have seen it.
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  6. #106
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    Default Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

    Quote Originally Posted by theironhorse99 View Post
    though its not related but the similar instance might relate to random engine shutdowns which a few members did. also sometimes Fi light coming up when starting.
    The validity can only be tested over a period of time. but involves no to minimal costs hence giving a try wont harm
    Ok

    Quote Originally Posted by psr View Post
    Not Just CBR 250R but Owners of Fireblade, Cb/CX 500 , VTX 1800 ,are also plagued by Earth Loose contact problem. Not guessing but here are some links ...
    Sorry sir, that provokes another question - Why only Honda? Why not Kawi? Suzuki? Yamaha? or Ducati? or even Pulsars? Or are we only seeing only with Honda? Just asking out of curiosity to see what is that other manufacturers do differently that Honda is failing to learn lessons, that's all
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  7. #107
    psr
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    Default Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

    Quote Originally Posted by aargee View Post
    Ok


    Sorry sir, that provokes another question - Why only Honda? Why not Kawi? Suzuki? Yamaha? or Ducati? or even Pulsars? Or are we only seeing only with Honda? Just asking out of curiosity to see what is that other manufacturers do differently that Honda is failing to learn lessons, that's all
    Thanks for the question,
    Since the CBR 250 R is made by Honda, we are restricting our references to Honda. Every bike has it's own idiosyncrasy...
    Most bikes with Powder coated chassis have this problem....even Yamaha R1 has it...but better not to deviate and loose focus..
    Honda typically uses Engine to Chassis mounting bolts as a connecting means to establish Negative connectivity from Engine Casing to Chassis.. Other manufacturers have their own method. Some have separate earth return wires soldered inside loom and a single wire returns to Battery negative, others run a separate Secondary Earth line from battery to the chassis etc.. If you had read the VTX1800 link you would have noticed that there are two versions in it. One having Secondary Negative wire from battery Negative to Chassis and one without it. The blogger had clearly mentioned that if this secondary Negative wire is present , not to bother with cleaning of earth locations and connections. So even within Honda's own production there are two different approach in Earth routing and connection.
    Hope this is helpful...
    Last edited by psr; 08-04-2015 at 01:30 PM.
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  8. #108
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    Default Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

    Seeing the technical discussion and old school discussion i felt to jump in and elaborate a little.

    Earthing. A much simple but much important point. You hear the term earthing now and then everywhere and every time. You hear earthing from house to automobiles. to ships to airplanes and also in electrical sub-station.

    So how important is it.

    Let me elaborate with a simple example.

    When you all were a child you must have experimented a little. You get a torch bulb, a small piece of wire or better metal tobgue cleaner and touch the bulb tail to positive end and body to negative end and the bulb glows. So you see until both ends are not connected it doesn't glows. Touching the negative of bulb is simply called as earthing.

    Now lets advance some. Those from villages will remember we had steel Eveready torch. Usually sometimes the torch will glow dim with new battery and family member will take it to torch repair shop and he will do some thing and it will again glow at full power. He did nothing but just repaired the negative or ground or earthing.

    Now coming to automobiles most of you have seen cars with one side headlight bright and other side dim like candle. This is a problem of ground. The said side couldn't complete connection and thus couldn't draw full current from battery to glow.

    Even in tail lamps of cars some time you will see when applying brakes the entire rear light cluster will glow dim instead of brake light at full power. That is a case of poor ground.

    So what is the actual thing.

    The thing is that the whole motorcycle is a giant circuit and thus the earthing or ground point is at one point of body and body being metal conducts to all parts.

    Most bikes have the ground wire connected to chassis. But in CBR the ground wire is connected to engine body at self starter point. Mostly engine are made of aluminum. Once oxide on it forms they acts as resistance. They act the same as inserting a resistance in electrical circuit.


    Now ignition is of two types. AC types like those in splendor, boxer, old CI bullets e.t.c.

    Modern bikes comes with DC ignition be it CDI or fuel injection.

    What happens is that when ground is weak then circuit will break.

    Most common example is when you get electric shock. The reason is electricity always find least resistance path for current conductivity. That's why you get shock as your body gives the path of least resistance.

    Similarly when the ground is not achievable, current will search path of least resistance to get the circuit completed. So it in turn will form series with all electrical circuits in bike to complete the circuit as soon as possible.

    So it effectively makes all circuit in series rather than parallel.

    As with all electrical systems parallel circuit keeps voltage same and current different. And in series, voltage is divided and current remains same.


    Thats the reason why the lights and all went dim. Its because in absence of ground the circuit became series thus distributing the voltage.

    Since voltage was less so the ECU, Ignition coil, Fuel injectors, O2 sensor were not working to full potential, and thus the loss of performance.

    By connecting the earth from battery to chassis we provided a parallel circuit and thus equal voltage to all systems.
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  9. #109
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    Icon14 Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

    Dear Shiv, Psr Sir, Aaargee, Sriram,

    First off Congratulations @shv18 . Right from the Powerhouse thread to this @shv18, the energy level and the urge to learn things that you have is absolutely great .

    The amount of efforts that has gone into the restoration of this wonderful bike is mind blowing. I simply do not have words to express my Respect for you people. If one does not have an emotional attachment with his ride this just simply cannot happen. You guys are wonderfull. @shv18 : Congratulations once again.
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  10. #110
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    Default Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

    Hi,

    i am very happy to see so much enthusiasm and active participation of readers post the recent information shared on this thread. Very valid questions have been put forward by the readers and senior rider @psr sir has been kind enough to answer all the queries in a simple yet technical way. I am also happy that a lot of queries and skepticism related to earth wire mod has been put forward and i completely agree that all such concerns are very much valid. I too was on the same boat when i was told to take an insulated cable and connect from the -Ve terminal of the battery to the earth wire... the first thing that came to my mind flashing at all times was a huge ball of fire!! Being a layman when it comes to electricals of a motorcycle, it felt like climbing mount everest while i was going through the troubleshooting part if you know what i am saying!!

    I am happy to report that my CBR 250R is doing very good. The earlier issues of engine stalling when rolling off the throttle has completely vanished and the engine rpms now climb normally to 1800 rpms or more during early morning starts. Earlier there was a slight hesitation from the vehicle and even at times my vehicle used to stall.. pretty much all the symptoms @psr sir has explained in his earlier posts on this thread. The bike now is super responsive to throttle inputs and i intend to later remove the desi jugaad wire and install a properly crimped and heat wrapped one which will keep it clean and away from natural elements thus, full proofing the electrical system from this problem completely. I am happy to note that @gopakumar s pillai sir's bike has also witnessed the same jump in low end and mid range performance: even when his CBR never gave him any kind of electrical problems. I am eagerly awaiting for more CBR owners to try this simple mod, do report back on this thread and confirm: if they have also witnessed anything different with their respective vehicles. Rest assured this won't blow anything up and hardly takes 10 - 15 mins to install.

    I do apologise for keeping the readers waiting but its just that office work has consumed most of my time, as they say,"Naukri maane Naukar!!" (salaried person means a slave to your work!!). But rest assured, the next set of posts will be equally interesting and i am sure it will raise excitement, doubts, queries and a lot more information sharing on this thread. Like i always say, knowledge when shared becomes something much more.. I am happy to note that readers and members of xbhp are equally excited and willing to discuss and learn more on this mere ownership experience thread, making it a platform to keep things rolling.

    Cheers,
    Last edited by shv18; 08-05-2015 at 11:41 PM.
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