Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

QUICK UPDATE:

Hi all,

So after a long gap i finally managed to do about 550 kms on my CBR 250R with fresh Shell Rimula R4 engine oil for the ongoing "milder" treatment. The vehicle is now noticeably becoming smoother, vibe free and there is definitely a change in the character of the engine. I am very happy with the results given by the HDEO engine oil treatment on my CBR's engine. The oil has already turned dark amber which now confirms my suspicion about the life this vehicle has led earlier. There is no way on earth so much deposits would be getting disloged unless the engine oil was just topped up and the vehicle was simply washed, polished and sent back to the owner by the SVC mechanics, making a killing in the process.



Pic 1: Engine oil changing colour in 550 kms. Note: This is the 2nd round of Shell Rimula R4 HDEO oil treatment.

Regardless, i am witnessing a drastic inmprovement in the FE department too. We can now move the conservative FE figure on highways to 40s instead of the earlier 38 kmpl. I believe with 3rd round of Rimula R4 engine oil treatment the vehicle will become even more smoother and better performing then it already is. I have nothing but praises for the CBR chassis as during my last 300 kms ride on crappy pot hole filled roads, i observed that the vehicle would remain absolutely stable even if unintentionally i ended going over pot holes at decent speeds (you know those irritating ones which are not visible till the last moment where you have no choice but to take your motorcycle over it!!). My CBR remained rock steady and never lost grip or traction. I guess the Michelin doing duty at the rear is also one of the prime factors behind this but still the overall chassis response over bad roads is commendable.

I am planning to clock some more kms tomorrow on the highway and see how my motorcycle responds as we slowly inch closer towards 1,000 kms and see if the Rimula R4 is behaving normally and no abnormal or unwanted vibrations creep in.

I am very happy to report that the long wait for the rear ABS sensor has finally come to an end. @AK3D has been kind enough to source this sensor cable for me as locally the waiting period for the arrival of this part was near about 2 months since, it is not a fast moving consumable item and the sensor unit is not manufactured in India. The rear ABS sensor has been shipped to my place as we speak and should be here in a few days. I shall then install it and confirm if my ABS system is back online and in the due process everything is more or less back to the way it was.



Pic 2: Rear ABS sensor unit.

If one looks at the picture above it is pretty clear that the ABS sensor that has been picked up by @AK3D is made in Japan hence, the cost. I believe the price will remain the same even for the newer models of CBR 250Rs. Regardless, it seems Christmas is coming early this season for me as the earlier ordered set of toys are now slowly landing up in my hands.

The first one is MOXI Racing adjustible levers.





Pic 3 & 4: MOXI racing adjustible levers for Honda CBR 250R ABS version.

For some weird reason, the OEM levers would start flaking off silverish deposits in my hand if i ride long enough. My guess is the OEM anodising done by the manufacturer was not up to the mark and has slowly started peeling off, leaving a great deal of mess in my hands. My all time favourites have always been ASV C5 levers (i have had the privilege of seeing and getting the feel: fit and finish of ASV levers on @abhimanyu31 's Ninja san: http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/general-...ml#post1056476) Sourcing them from the States will have to take a backseat for a while as i don't have anyone who can hand carry it for me. So till that time in order to sprinkle something extra on my CBR, i got hold of the ones from MOXI Racing. Though they are no where close to the fit and finish of th ASVs (http://asvinventions.com/Unbreakable-Levers), but they are good enough to get rid off the flaky OEM levers for the time being. Based on my request Mr. Vikram & Vijay, Motozone Performance had sourced a set for me and they also chamfered the edges properly so that my hands don't start hurting during long rides. It has been observed with many aftermarket levers found locally in India where the edges remain slightly sharp which is an absolute no no for a rider.

After following the advice of @theironhorse99 and @Divya Sharan, i had got my CBR's coneset checked and tightened by the SVC mechanic. However, in a matter of few hundred kms the khat noise is back in action and all the signs point towards worn out racer stems and most probably the ball bearings as well. I wanted to try out something different than OEM, so looking at the unique experience shared by @abhimanyu31 on his thread (http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/general-...ml#post1069542) , i decided to go ahead with trying out tapered roller bearings from All Balls Racing.



Pic 5: All Balls Racing tapered roller bearings for Honda CBR 250R courtesy Motozone Performance, Mumbai & Pune.

Dear readers do bear in mind, due to extra spare cash being saved post the procurement of a 2nd hand motorcycle, the thread starter is unable to control the urges of experimentation with his respective steed . Not necessary that you should do the same, but in the name of science, learning something new and having a unique experience, i simply couldn't resist giving into the temptation. As mentioned earlier, the roads in my current place of stay are in absolute horrible condition. No wonder the steering ball bearings and the stem racer set has taken quite a beating and gave me an early "C'est la Vie". The idea of tapered roller bearings being able to handle radial and axial loads much better than ball bearings which in theory should work well for the current scenario my CBR has to face everyday: crappy moon cratered roads was something i really wanted experience first hand. So the order was placed and Mr. Vikram & Vijay, Motozone Performance were kind enough to ship the items ASAP.

But there lies a technical challenge to install these tapered roller bearings which i will have to work out given the limited resources i have available in my current place of stay (Will be elaborated later in a dedicated installation post). Stay tuned for more interesting stuff to be shared on this thread...

Kindly bear in mind, this is purely my opinion and one can either agree or disagree with my views on the given topic. To my understanding Honda FS oil is nothing but a highly refined version of mineral oil which is extracted from the ground. It is not "synthesised" in a lab unlike Shell Advanced Ultra or Motul 300V. The pricing is on a much lower side of the OEM Honda oil as in comparison to the competition and so far the reports from the ownership thread, it is pretty clear that the Honda FS oil doesn't survive more than 2000 - 2500 kms: beyond which the engine vibrations creep in and the gears slowly start becoming rough, none of which is evident with the Shell Advanced Ultra FS oil. All the traits are similar to the behaviour of a mineral oil.

I would like to place OEM Honda FS oil with Bajaj DTSI FS oil which Bajaj claims will last 10,000 kms on a Ninja 250/300R, something any smart owner would laugh at and throw away the DTSI can for a Motul/Shell. Though i don't know if Honda SVCs at other states discourage the usage of aftermarket oils, but logically warranty cannot be void if one is using the same grade oil. In my uncle's SVC there is no such hard and fast rule though the moment they see Crapstol (I meant Castrol!! ) they show the owner the exit door unless they agree to get a better alternative or dump this worthless fake oil back at the shop. I believe @aargee would be the right person to comment on this point as he has replaced OEM FS with Shell Advanced Ultra FS oil and that too at an authorised service centre (@JSP Honda, Chennai i believe).

Hope this works out well for you.

You managed to do 140 kmph that too on an empty, elevated fly-over and you feel your vehicle has clutch slippage? Rimula doesn't cause clutch slippage, please check the condition of the OEM chain and sprockets and also make sure the clutch cable adjustment is proper. I would recommend going for the earth wire mod which will ensure that your vehicle always has proper earthing and will provide peak performance at all the times.

Good luck with your purchase.

Cheers,

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Thanks Shv18: Will indeed check on the ground wire . My assumption was on account that Rimula is a diesel engine oil probably not suited for wet clutch operation and might cause slippage due to higher cleaning/detergent content. Yes the chain was checked for correct slack and the sprocket look good.

Can someone tell me what is the top speed of Indian Spec CBR250R without any mods . I read somewhere that the ECU is differently for the Indian marker and also has a rev limiter at 8500 rpm when in 6th gear.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

The top speed has been discussed in the cbr250r thread. It can be anything between 137-150kmph provided the bike is in top notch condition rider's weight as well as the wind movement. Post 140kmph it looses steam and doesn't accelerate as the torque curve flattens out. So you were able to achieve 140kmph is pretty much a healthy sign. I have seen speedo indicated 146-147 after that I was hell scared on doing top speed runs.

And the ecu cutting of at 8500 rpm is crap. If you are on a downhill you can see the needle going past 8.5k rpm in 6th gear.

Cheers,
Sanjay

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

dear @shv18, I would request you to please ask for images of around 500 km old engine oil in CBRs, who in your honest opinion have taken good care of the machines.

Then compare the color of the oil with yours and see the difference. I have already informed you that the worry you have of the engine not taken good care of by the previous owner is unwarranted. Whatever debris you think the engine had, would have already been taken out by the Ultra. That is a thinner oil by design and can dislodge carbon from places where other oils cannot penetrate. This is one of the reason why old vehicles(more than 70K kms) which were running on minerals from birth are not recommended to use synthetic oils.

Please compare the images and then decide to change this oil.

You can do one more thing, compare the 880 km image of the ultra (post 59 of this thread) with 880 km image of this oil. If both appear similar, this oil has done nothing more and the engine is as it was before.

Please also visit this website: http://www.cbr250.net/forum/cbr250-s...-my-oil-8.html

The color is pitch black of a 4000 km driven cbr 250. The owner appears to be a learned motorist with some knowledge of oils and would be doing regular oil changes.

The color you are observing is normal. Start following the recommended oil change intervals now.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

The Engine oil had become darker at 550 instead of 300+ like the first time...I think ,you should use the present R4 till at least 1,500~2,000 Kms to see how much more deposits can be cleaned.. The Silverish deposit on fingers from the levers is due to the Aluminum coming off the lever...The levers are anodized, and once it wears out this happens. The new adjustable levers look good, but I have seen them develop slack and become less useful over the years due to usage....

The ABS wheel rotation sensor is made of a coil with iron core inside...If you check the end connections with a Digital multimeter , you will note that it shows resistance...here is a picture to help....


The steering Taper Roller bearings are a welcome change...if you can do it. From what you had been mentioning of the place you live in, skilled work are unavailable. Tapered roller bearing installation requires lot of skill and understanding.

Good luck ...

The Rimula R4 does not contain friction modifiers like Moly and so does not cause Clutch slip.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

I searched a lot but only R1 & R2 available in my city. Can anyone please give me source from where i get Shell Rimula R4 ? Want to try in my CBR 150R (Also want to do Earthing Mod.)

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

It might be available on Amazon.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Thanks for reply bro but Rimula R4 not available online . Any other source ?

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Well my CBR250R is also under extended warranty and even i had the same state of mind of sticking to Honda stock engine oil but recently when i was chit chatting with CBR mechanic at Honda svc ( he's a bit close to me ) he has told me that until and unless one uses any specific instrument to check whether the oil being used is a Honda oil or other brand oil will be a very tough to find out. Am not sure how far he is correct but I have decided to use Shell FS from the next change and i get Shell FS for around Rs650-700/- in my city from a local dealer.My CBR odo is at 29,500Kms and is 2 years old and i too feel the vibrations once the honda engine oil gets a bit old.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R


i have been using Shell FS for more than 15,000 + km's and its always been changed at the service center. infact these are the same guys who fit pulsar rear disk pad for me in Honda SVC and what you mentioned is correct. virtually its not possible to distinguish between oil post 1500 km, however at 1000km you can still see difference between shell FS and honda FS. shell gets husky brown while honda(idemitsu) oil gets darker shade and stickiness is far lesser.

generic way of testing oil through hands.

@shv18 brother would request you to also add the cost for the 3rd party items as this will save you a lot of PM's and also for potential buyers they can plan their savings accordingly

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Sirjee,

Is your bike in extended warranty or still in warranty ?

If no then the SVC will never mind putting your choice of oil as you are the responsible party, in warranty thing is vice versa, they are responsible for any damage. Just my thinking.

I have two empty bottles of honda fs oil, I am going to purchase two cans of shell and disguise them in honda fs bottle, because I had enough with this bad oil which only lasts till 3000kms.

But I would still like to here the story from shell FS users as to how you guys convince the SVC and on what grounds they agree on putting the oil without affecting the warranty.

I have read the manual and it never mentions to stick to honda FS oil om any of the page.

Need some pointers on how to convince them.

Cheers
Sanjay

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R


its not a matter of in or out of warranty. "being india" everything works on rapport.
i have had cbr's fixed under warranty inspite of they being out of warranty just on basis of personal rapport with the ASC manager and he happily did it.
bill exceeding 15k+. not my bike but machines of people i know.

honda tries to sell it own oil however i believe Shell does match/exceed JASO-MA specs what honda mentions for their motorcycles hence if it really is pulled that far they cannot deny warranty claims. Oil choice is user's personal preference the only thing warranty will look is the spec of oil and Shell FS does meet/exceed such specs specified by the manufacturer. in this case honda.

from shell website :

"Shell Advance Ultra provides Shell’s ultimate protection and performance for all modern motorbikes, whatever their engine size. It delivers excellent control with smooth gear changes, and a more enjoyable ride thanks to reduced noise and vibration. Its fully synthetic technology helps to prolong the life of your engine.Available in viscosity grades: SAE J 300 10W-40 and 15W-50. Both formulations meet: API SN and JASO MA2.Shell Advance Ultra oil meets API SN and JASO MA2. " and JASO-MA2 exceeds the previous set bar by

hence they cannot deny claims for warranty. it's just they want to show their annual profit report to their "mai baap" svc owner to keep their jobs and hikes.



another for JASO- rating:

JASO introduced 2 ratings for 4 stroke motorcycle oils:

JASO MA – This was the standard for single unit engines where the wet clutch, gearbox and engine used the same oil. JASO-MA oils don’t contain friction modifiers.

JASO-MA2 – This specification was introduced in 2006 for modern motorcycle engines. As well as being a higher standard of oil the JASO-MA2 approval means the oil is suitable for use in bikes with catalytic converts in the exhaust system.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

QUICK UPDATE

Hi All,

it has been a hectic week since, i got hold of the little toys thanks to Mr. Vikram and Vjay from Motozone. My CBR has now clocked 800 kms and so far the engine is only becoming smoother and smoother. All vibrations are now becoming dormant so my guess is the engine is now settling in with Rimula R4 HDEO oil even better. From here onwards i will monitor the engine oil not in terms of the colour it turns to but rather on the basis of the feedback i get from my CBR's engine. If the engine feels harsher or gears become hard and notchy, to me that is an indication to change the engine oil asap.

Anyways, with the little spare time i managed to take out from work, i got the MOXI Adjustible Levers installed on my CBR.





Pic 1 & 2: MOXI Racing Adjustible Levers on my CBR 250R.

I intentionally chose the silver colour for the adjustible levers as it is completely inconspicuous and thus, helps keeping my ride away from people with fidgity hands who would otherwise keep on playing with the adjustment settings anytime the vehicle is parked in a public parking area. Post installation of the levers, i must be honest the feel of the braking and clutch action is even better and smoother. May be the OEM ones had become slightly worn out due to usage over a period time by the previous user, i am not sure but for the price these levers are a good replacement option one can look for. I don't feel my fingers paining anymore ove long distance riding anymore.

Thanks to senior rider @AK3D, i finally managed to get hold of the rear ABS sensor to replace the damaged unit as mentioned earlier on this thread (for details refer to post: http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/general-...ml#post1154333).



Pic 3: Rear ABS Sensor unit for Honda CBR 250R.

So now that i had the required part in my hand, it was time to give a call to my local SVC and then fix an appointment to quickly install this and see if the ABS system is back online. I received a call today morning that the mechanic is free and he will install it for me. So post office hours i made a quick dash to the SVC and got everything ready to start the installation of the same. I must apologise for the horredous pictures of mud coated CBR is in but then again the weather gods have decided to let the taps remain open since, the last 15 days. Would you believe it if i told you i had got my whole vehicle washed and polished just 3 hours back?







Pic 4, 5 & 6: The Rear ABS sensor, we begin the process of dismantling the panels to access the coupler connecting to the rear sensor.

Dear readers, please do note that in order to access the coupler connecting the rear ABS sensor, you will have to open up the right hand side mid panel as shown in the pictures. It is neatly tucked in right next to the CBR's ECM unit. One must bear in mind that the coupler is kept at its place by sliding it in a given area on the chassis as the pics below will suggest. Don't try to yank it out instead, gently slide the whole coupler downwards and then disconnect it.







Pic 7, 8 & 9: The fiber panel removed and the ABS coupler accessed and then removed. The rear ABS sensor getting unscrewed and removed.

We then started removing the rear ABS sensor from its place. The Rear ABS sensor and the extended cable has been neatly held in its place by a set of 4 holding area, so it will need a bit of patience and wrestling with the rubber and the metal mount to remove the old unit and the whole wiring.





Pic 10 & 11: A comparo pic between the damaged and the new rear ABS sensor. New ABS sensor finally put into its designated place.

If one refers to the pic above, it is pretty clear that the damaged rear ABS sensor has a visible dent on it. Unlike my earlier belief, on closer inspection it was evident that the dent must have been caused due to incorrect installation of the rear tire. The tire fitter most likely was trying to put the rear tire's Disc rotor into the calliper and during the process managed to hit the rear ABS sensor multitude no. of times damaging it in the process. The previous owner was not aware of the whole scenario and also never bothered to address the non functional ABS. One layman advice to all ABS version CBR owners: make sure to unscrew the rear ABS sensor if you intend to get the rear tire replaced/repaired so that you don't have to lose 1800 bucks from your wallet!

Once, the unit was installed i then cleared my dues and took out the vehicle for a test run to see if ABS is back online or again do i have to go into fact finding mission if nothing happens. Once the vehicle was in motion, the moment my CBR went above 10 kmph, the ABS indicator light in the console started with intermitent blinks: 3 consecutive in a row and then no flashing for 2 seconds and then 3 blinks again. After first 800 mtrs the ABS light went off. I believe the ABS unit was re-calibrating with the signals now coming from the front and the rear. I then went into an abandoned parking lot and then took the vehicle to various speeds (20 - 40 & 60 kmph) and jammed the rear break only (this being a combined ABS system, in theory should also apply the front brake in case of an emergency). The ABS got engaged and did what it was supposed to do: no fishtailing or sliding. The vehicle stopped dead center. So now the ABS system is also fully functional on my CBR bringing my vehicle close to OEM factory settings. Things are slowly getting better and better and the sheer of bringing her back to her former glory has made this journey and experience i hope we all can learn something from.

Next Sintered Brake Pads..... Stay tuned..


Thanks for your inputs sir. Yes indeed with the first round of Shell Rimula R4, the oil had changed its colour in about 300 kms. With the second oil change, the engine oil changed its colour in about 500 kms and engine becoming noticeably smoother. Logical conclusion is the HDEO oil is doing its job and the deposits and varnish are slowly getting disloged and ZDDP coating protecting the internals and also reducing friction in the due process. i donot wish to be a conservationist at the cost of losing an engine and since, this whole exercise has been a complete experiment, i am all the more alert to any unwanted noise and indications being given out by my engine. As a wise motorhead once said, "Oil is cheap, engine parts aint! replace the oil.." i shall follow this simple but self explanatory post and change the oil whenever my CBR 250R's engine gives me an indication that it has used up the oil and vibes are back.

The engine oil changing its colour so early can be only because of two things:

a) Piston blow-by: which means the oil scraper ring on the piston has failed and the engine oil is now getting fouled by burnt up gases. Also the indications will be pretty clear if this were to be the case: smoke will be emitted from the exhaust, engine oil consumption, loss in power and FE: none of which is happening on my CBR. Other way round the FE has improved and the power is back.

b) Huge amount of deposits in the engine internals: Which is what i belive my engine currently has. It has taken 3 rounds of engine oil treatment to bring her back to the state she is in. The Shell Ultra died in under 1300 kms, the Rimula R4 first round did its job beautifully and was drained on a precautionary basis. R4 oil, round two is currently engaged in cleaning futher deposits as i continue clocking kms. Once, this oil is worn out i shall do another round of Shell Rimula R4 HDEO oil treatment and will observe how soon does it change it's colour.

The old rear ABS sensor is a goner as the post above will reflect. I did a multimeter return test and the voltage output was nil.

Have you tried Just Dial?? May be this link will help you trace a Shell Dealer in your Locality: Lubricant Oil Distributors-Shell in Nashik, Shell-Lubricant Oil Distributors, India | Justdial

Thanks for carrying on a good discussion related to Shell VS OEM oil change @ SVCs. Common sense tells me that unless the SVC can give it to you in writing that using any other engine oil which is equivalent or exceeding the JASO standards than OEM Honda FS oil will void warranty: take their words in a pinch of salt. It is nothing but to keep the sales of consumables on the higher side. With my earlier steed (Yamaha FZ) initially, i too had received a bit of resistance till i confronted the manager and the workshop manager asking them to give it in writing if what they claim is true. I told them, I shall then consult it with my lawyer and if found untrue will drag the whole SVC to consumer court for promoting false information and following false practices against product purchase from YAMAHA for which they are supposed to be the official service provider. It was fun watching their faces turn red and then the staff ready to accept Motul 300 V FS oil i was carrying at that point of time with me.

But yes, after the earlier fiasco, i built my rapport with the crew and slowly i was allowed to loiter around at the service bay even when other owners were asked to sit in the customer lounge. It is all about relations in India. You build it with your local Honda SVC, with a little bit of "chai paani" handed over to the mechanic attending your vehicle, chances are they will offer a lot more extra services then you thought were earlier not possible "as per the rulebook"..

Shell Advanced Ultra FS oil and Honda CBR 250R are made for each other. You don't have to believe my statement.. just have a look at the ownership experience of close to 90k kms of senior rider @aargee and that should settle any confusion one may have.


Cheers,

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

sir, I've one request, please avoid the word "senior" to me. I'm no way senior in terms of age or in terms of experience. You can simply quote me as AARGEE & if you feel you need to add anything more still...just avoid as the last part of my name already has everything in it. AAR(JI/JEE)GEE

Congratulations on your ownership, Thank you for sharing your learning along with psr sir & AK3D bhai & ride long & safe

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Shv18....Good to know that your ABS problem had been sorted out with the replacement of the sensor..( and a special thanks must be due to Mr.Aamir aka AK3D for his ever helpful attitude)Obviously it had been damaged while doing some tire/wheel related work. The New sensor seems to protrude more , and is highly risky to do any wheel related work....Why don't you add washers between the sensor and it's mounting to retract the sensor into the mount thus preventing the wheel disk hitting it .
The present Rimula oil getting dirty is not due to compression ring or oil ring wear out...Like you said it will lead to less compression and oil consumption and oil level drop....none of which is happening. ...So the discoloring must be due to internal coating which is getting cleaned now.
The Dog Leg levers does look handsome and functional.....but take care to keep it off from prying hands ...

AAR Ji whether you accept it or not, you are a senior with lots of experience on road in organized Long Tours , and positive experience, which you had generously shared..As your name itself has" Ji "in it , it is but normal for us to look up to you for knowledge , and guidance...