Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Shv18...So you have taken the Rimula Risc.....believe me, you will have no regrets , and only good things to say about the oil..The fact that the oil is turning darker in just about 300 Kms is an indication of more deposit to be cleaned inside the engine. I think in 1,000 Kms it will become dark ,laden with the muck and varnish inside the engine. I am keen to know how engine behaves under such circumstance also, since the oil is supposed to keep the particles suspended ,and likely to affect overall oil behavior. Like you I am also keen to know how far the FZ filter is effective...though theoretically , it should be same color as oil and contain some of the deposits...Please do observe if there is any difference in gear shift and esp., engine heat....Your sharing on these points will be very educative for me..
Regarding the front "Thud" sound, I think you need to adjust the free play in steering stem by tightening Steering Stem Nut.

Ironhorse.....what a wealth of info you have to share !! I am looking forward to more of your knowledge share...

Divya Sharan.....Happy that you are helping out in this thread also....

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Thanks for chiming in Divya

Thanks for your inputs. I would like to add that at slow speeds i am indeed observing heavy steering. So my guess is based on your and @Divya Sharan pointers i should most likely get the coneset inspected. Purely from curiosity point of view, what is the generic expected life of an OEM coneset on a CBR 250R? I believe if what you intend to share will only benefit the readers, i have absolutely no problem with it being posted on this thread. Rather i believe the front suspension mod using spacers and a bit more fork oil will add something more to this thread for the readers to look forward to. Do share.. so long as you intend to add tons of pictures for easy reference

So far with the 310 kms covered, i don't think i would like to term: using Rimula R4 in the risk category at all. I am rather surprised that whatever my fellow experimenting xbhp members were raving about related to this oil, i am witnessing it rather experiencing it first hand!! I will be honest though, while the HDEO oil was getting poured into my bike, for a moment i did have my reservations: knowing the fact that i am now going to use an unapproved, NON OEM, HDEO mineral oil in my CBR which i believe no one else has tried it on a CBR250R so far in India (may be the the rest of the world too!), whether it was such a smart thing to do! Non of us knew whether it would lead to something good, bad or worse as all the decision was based on fellow member's experience, theoretical knowhow and also the eagerness to take risks based on informed decision. I am happy that science was triumphant in the end!! The HDEO oil is doing exactly what was predicted by the senior members even before i poured in the first drop of oil into my CBR's engine.

However, the experiment is not over yet... Let us wait and watch how my CBR will behave as we continue clocking more kms in the coming few days. I intend to complete another few hundred kms by tom and bring the odo no. close to 1,000 kms to get the vehicle ready for an oil change.


Cheers,

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Ideally there is no fixed distance/km for Coneset change, i have seen first coneset change range from initial 8k to even 50-60k stock. it completely depends on usage. however if you ride on potholed/rough roads regularly. 25k is what i would believe is the life barring aside the initial batches of CBR as their coneset bearings are (made in japan) and can and will last amazingly long.

Coneset change will set you back by 1200 bucks however you would need to check the condition first. if there is not much pitting and the bearings seems to be intact then a good cleanup and loads of greasing with a proper repack shall give you another 10k of life else go for a change. on a side note try finding tapered roller bearings for CBR which will have better handling and longer life due to smarter design.



Test 1 : Just park you bike on the side stand and lift it one way by holding the side frame anything besides the handle and then try to move the handle either side with very less or minimal force and see if you find any point where the handle feels stopping/jerking. If yes then bearings are done and you rather change it. if not and just that the movement feels heavy then you can get it a bit loosened up.


Test 2 :Sit on the bike, grab the front brake tight and try to shake the motorcycle front and back while keeping another hand near the t-stem bearing / coneset top bearing and see if you see any movement there.

now we can come up with multiple test results:

condition 1 : tight stem + pitting (handle feels like stopping in a bump and moving ahead ) - change at next SVC visit.
condition 2 : tight stem but not pitting feel - loosen it a bit if possible. get it opened , cleaned and regreased.
condition 3 : feels overly free moving side to side - tightening it a bit will help and can be used for some more time.


another thing to note is you are using MRF (duke 200) front which is tubeless radial and tends to make the handle a bit heavier compared to ply bias tyres due to its natural tendency it can be just that and nothing else. i had my coneset change roughly at 25-27k which also includes a ladakh trip hence i had nothing to complain about.

for all : we are usually in a habit of getting the motorcycles pressure washed. make sure the pressure is not going to the t-stem directly.
it will blast off all the grease saving the bearing from rust and you will find your coneset bearing die a premature death.



taprered roller bearings : http://www.skf.com/in/products/beari....html?switch=y

you will be able to find SKF in market for CBR250r.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

[MENTION=32641]shv18[/MENTION] the oil that you are using is an API CI4 oil. It can take ten times the gunk of what a petrol engine is expected to release in 1000 kms.

The old gen Safari has API CH4 oil and it did 15,000 kms every oil change. The new gen has API CI4 oil and now the recommended change interval is 20,000 kms.

Also note, I am talking about a DIESEL SUV. The oil gets really really dirty in there.

What I want to tell you is, that the oil is capable enough to take 10,000 kms of gunk which your bike would produce. 1K kms would be too little for this oil. Let it run for atleast 3k kms and then replace. The removal of gunk from the engine is a zero order reaction and the concentration of gunk present in the oil has nothing to do with the efficiency of the oil to remove gunk. It should not saturate, which it wont, even if you use it for 10K kms in a petrol engine.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Extending Oil change is a guarantee for early engine failure... Bajaj claims that it's DTS oil can be changed at 10,000 Kms...Not one bajaj bike will be able to survive that long without change of oil. An oil is meant for Lubrication and secondly to take heat away from the hot areas of the engine. It is the heat , acid formation,and combustion residues that over time changes the properties of the oil and make the engine harsh, and gear change difficult.
An Air cooled engine is more or less similar to a Diesel engine as far as heat and wear is concerned as against a LC engine whose temperature is well regulated.
The Rimula R4 in my Karizma looses it's ability slowly after about 1,500 Kms of use and by 2,500 to 2,800 not only become very dark, laden with burn residues , the gear shifting becomes hard , and engine begins to have vibration...with fresh R4 change the engine becomes smooth and vibes become greatly attenuated.

People had lost their engine due to longer oil change interval, but none had lost the engine due to correct or early change of oil.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Oil change for CBR 250 is 6k kms. I am asking him to do it at 3K kms.

I am a conservationist. Wastage of a resource as critical as engine oil doesn't go down well with me. What great thing are we achieving by replacing fully synthetic oil in 1k kms when it could run for 6k kms? And then again replacing an API CI4 oil in 1K kms? I would have recommended an engine flush with the previous oil change if there was doubt that the previous owner didnt do his oil change on time.

If I have the moolah to replace oil every day.. I cant make the engine last forever. It would still die out one day.

My last oil change - May 2014(oil and oil filter), June 2015(Top up), August 2015(Oil and oil filter). Please note - Its May 2014!! to August 2015!! The bike ran just 3K kms in this duration. I could have done 3 oil changes in this duration as per recommendations. But, as a person who knows something about oil, I know that diesel oils have high TBN and can easily neutralise the acids for this long.

A good article to read Do jet engines require oil changes like car engines do? | Air Canada enRoute

What prevents airbus 320 to do a complete oil change after every flight. They just top up the consumed oil after every flight! The engine does last long even though it is just topped up and rarely goes for a complete oil change.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

i believe its mineral oil what he is using for the cleanup hence suggested 1k drain interval as by 2k almost all mineral oils are done in motorcycles as per my observations.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

The first oil was Shell Advance Ultra. It is an FS.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

The thread starter had explained the reason for his change of the FS ,and how a mineral oil is now being used .

Let us stop our views , and let the thread starter continue with his account of HIS Experience...

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

The best reading and learning experience for me since I joined xBHP. It would be great if you can compile a PDF of whole thing, and put in one place.

There is so much information, I wish I had known about it long back. It is indeed a very very useful resource for any CBR 250R owner.

I am going to try most of things on my one year bike. Would share my experiences.

Thanks for sharing. Keep it up.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

hello shivang hooked up to your thread since the very time the idea of owning this wonderful machine tinkeled me. on the same path as yours, i was tight on bugdet & also a lil bit hesitated for laying my hands on a used one rather then aquiring a new one. but after reading your discussions with psr sir, aargee sir, i went ahead and finally gifted myself with this awesome machine.
it is a 2014 january make standard version with hrc colour showing 5250kms at the time. a initial check up n a test ride of 2-3 kms shows the signs of a good kept bike. as the owner went abroad, it was laying in the parking by the owner. so deal was finalised at 1.15 lac and now she is resting in my place.
after enlightened by the heavily dispersed knowledge from this n the dedicated thread to honda cbr250r, i shortlisted some of the primary workings on my ceeber which needed:

1. changing OEM engine coolant to engine ice or motul motocool whatever is available. reason: as already on low level and need to get top up. i feel, engine ice or motul will be the best in serving the purpose as the engine temp reaches very soon to 3 bars within 1-2 kms ride(not beyond 3 even after 275 kms of continue riding at 85-100 kmph).

2. giving it shell rimula 4 15w40 treatment for 1000 kms so as to double sure that the engine if suffered in the past, will be taken care of.
further switching to shell ultra advance fs 10w40 post 1000 kms.

3. changing brake pads. i observed a pattern formation on front rotors thats why. however they have a good bite n dont have screeching sound (like rubbing of metaalic pieces rubbing). but as a preventive maintainence. also changing to dot4 fluid.

4 going for a 3m treatment. the very idea behind this is to make her to her former glory.
5. front is feeling heavy. may be i just upgraded from 100cc 110kg bike to 250cc 160kg bike but it feels bulky. now there are 2-3 reasons in my mind for this.
a. either coneset is malfunctioning. get it checked, independent of yes or no i am changing it SKF tapered bearings one. if anyone has done this, please
tell me the bearing size. it will be of great help if the rear and front tyre bearing sets sizes are also shared.
b. tyres- as praised to hell depth i am also blessed with contigos on both front and rear. if yes then this replacement wil be done 15000 kms or till tyre goes bald.
c. tyre allignment. if mechanic also confirmed the same, will go for it

if i am missing any thing please let me know. your valuable inputs are highly desired.

----consecutive posts auto-merged-----

also on my returning journey of 300kms, i stopped my bike for a small puff break. after getting relaxed i just for the curiosity, take a walk around of my bike to check any abnormality, when i discover the ticking sound from the rear wheel near rotor. the engine was off inspite of that the sound is coming. tried hard to locate the source but couldnt find one. please help.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Thank you for the appreciation of my mere posts. I am still learning a lot as i continue my journey with my CBR 250R and i am hopeful that it will benefit a lot of people in xbhp.

Dear readers,

i am really pressed for time due to work commitments. Just had a quick glance at the thread and was very happy to see so many people willing to participate and share. Will try to put forward a new post by this weekend.

Cheers,

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

So do you see any changes in oil colour after 300 kms? Last time it was brown already I guess.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Hi,

After having to deal with incessant rains and flood like situation near my place of stay for about 2 weeks, i finally managed to clock about 835 kms on my CBR 250R. Though there were no signs of any unwanted vibrations, engine note becoming harsh or even the gears losing the butter smooth slick shifts, I decided to do an early drain purely because of the following reasons:

1) To observe and understand if using an unapproved Yamaha FZ/Byson engine oil filter is yielding good results and that my engine is free and safe of disloged particles now due to usage of a high detergent Shell Rimula R4 HDEO oil.

2) The status of the engine oil, physical inspection to give me an understanding whether this engine oil is truely as good as it claims to be.

3) Due to time constraint and office commitments i may not be able to do any other activity/maintenance for good 2 months which means if the oil goes bad in between, i will either have to park my bike or else use it with a dirty engine oil which is something i want to avoid at all costs. So an early drain was the next logical step in my case.

Anyways, the appointment was fixed with the local Honda SVC and we started the work of dis-assembling side fairings in order to get an easy access to the engine.



Pic 1: Mechanic removing the side panels for easy access to the engine.

The engine oil drain bolt wa sthen unscrewed and the oil started to pool in the collecting pan below. From physical inspection the engine oil still seemed to be in a good condition though there was a lot of visible gunk which was currently in suspension in the engine oil. So It was clear to me that the Shell Rimula R4 engine oil was doing its job pretty good, removing unwanted gunk and varnish formation inside the engine.





Pic 2 & 3: Engine oil still in good condition. Note the blackish suspended particles in the engine oil. The Detergents are doing their job of cleaning the internals of the CBR engine.

Once the engine oil was drained completely, the mechanic then went ahead with opening up the side oil filter casing to remove the Yamaha FZ engine oil filter. I must admit, i was very excited and at the same time also a bit concerned about the oil filter, whether it was able to retain dirt and was filtering whatever was now being removed from the engine surface and the internals by the HDEO oil. To my surprise, the Yamaha FZ/Byson engine oil filter came out completely black. If one does a comparo between the OEM filter and the FZ filter it is pretty clear that FZ filter was able to retain a lot more particles in comparison to the OEM one. Though this is not exactly scientific test, more of seat on pants review but it was clear to me that FZ/Byson engine oil filter was a cheap, reliable and superior filter (atleast in my books) in comparison to the OEM one. So at the cost of Mere 40 bucks i now can safely use and throw as many filters as i want without ever feeling the pinch of 300 bucks being cleaned off from my wallet just for one filter. Point is now we do have an alternate option to the OEM parts especially in places where the availability of spare engine oil filter right at the SVC counter is a pain for an owner.





Pic 4 & 5: The image above is of the OEM honda engine oil filter and the one below is of Yamaha FZ/Byson one. Note the blackish nature of the Yamaha FZ engine oil filter @ 835 kms in comparison to the OEM Honda engine oil filter state @ about 1200-1300 kms. Yamaha filter was able to do the job of witholding particles rather very well.

So we removed the old Yamaha FZ/Byson engine oil filter and installed a new one and bolted it back into the given place. Then the engine drain bolt was screwed back into its place once, the crush washer was replaced with a new one. The next batch of Shell Rimula R4 was prepped to be poured inside the engine.







Pic 6, 7 & 8: Shell Rimula R4 HDEO oil being poured into my CBRs engine. Note the minute bubble formations inside the engine oil inspection window. As per my conversation with the senior riders it is most likely due to detergents and nothing to worry about.

For readers please bear in mind that Honda CBR 250R needs 1.5 ltrs of engine oil so right now if you calculate the servicing cost with using shell rimula then @300 bucks per ltr and @1.5 ltrs required per service I am spending about Rs. 450 (1.5 ltrs HDEO oil) + 40 (Yamaha FZ engine oil filter) + 100 (Labour) = Rs. 590/- per oil change. Now if you make a comparison with the OEM stock filter and Shell Advance Ultra FS oil then the overall expense per oil change will be Rs. 1245 (@Rs.830 per ltr of Shell Advance Ultra FS oil ) + 284 (OEM Honda engine oil filter) + 100 labour = Rs. 1629/-.

Based on the previous discussions that have recently taken place about the longevity of an HDEO mineral oil on this thread, it kinda peaked my interest in finding out the reality behind the unanswered question: what is the expected life of an HDEO mineral oil in a Honda CBR 250R Liquid cooled engine? In a diesel engine, an HDEO engine oil has to work a lot harder in a very harsh environment where the average compression ratio is about 18.6:1 and the fuel used itself is very dirty. I have personally seen brand new engine oil poured into a diesel engine of a car changing its colour to black in under 2 minutes of running the engine. Now that we are using an HDEO mineral engine oil in a Honda CBR 250R engine where the compression ratio is mere 10.7:1, the fuel used is also cleaner and the environment is much more better then that of a diesel engine, in theory atleast this engine oil should survive longer than what has been speculated. As per the tests done by enthusiastic motorheads of xbhp, Shell Rimula R4 has survived a maximum of 2,500 kms after which the engine note changes, a bit of roughness is felt and also the gear shifts don't feel slick anymore. In a layman language it is an indication that the detergents and the addtives in the engine oil has slowly started losing their properties of cleaning, adhering to the suface and keeping everything running smooth.

However, all the tests done with this particular HDEO engine oil on xbhp atleast has been limited to air cooled engines where the engine temperatures may shoot up as high as 120 - 140'C in stop and go traffic which means more amount of heat cycles or thermal stress to the oil. Let us also not forget that in an air cooled engine, the engine oil also has to act as a heat exchanger, transfering the heat generated from the engine to the radiator fins designed at various locations for dissipation of heat. A Honda CBR 250R has a Liquid Cooled engine which has a proven superior LC system that never allows the engine to go past 90-95'C temps. Thus the engine oil has to go through lower amount thermal stress which in turn (theoretically) should allow the engine oil to last a lot more longer.

In the long run, i do intend to go ahead with a test where, once the engine internals clean up process is completed, i will use a fresh batch of Shell Rimula R4 and slowly start taking the engine oil beyond the 2,500 kms(theoretical) limit and see if the engine still retains the same smoothness, no funny vibrations, or gear shifts retaining the smoothness and slickness it offers as in when a new oil is poured in. However, unlike speculated by some that due to the nature of the oil with higher particle suspension capability one can easily use it till 10K kms, i would not like to try my luck with my CBR engine unless there is concrete evidence or hardcore experiments have been done and proven by someone in this regard. Using an unapproved HDEO mineral oil in the territory of above 3,000 kms at one go is something i am not at all comfortable with. The idea is to slowly push this HDEO oil in stages and see if it is able to survive 3,500 - 4,000 kms in a CBR 250R engine. If this experiment turns out to be successful, imagine the cost savings one can do and that too without compromising the reliability of the engine as you are using an engine oil which offers best protection: with the highest amount of ZDDP and detergents, an oil which behaves more like an FS oil than a mineral one and at 1/4th the cost using an FS oil. I am pretty sure one won't mind spending Rs. 590/- instead of Rs. 1629/- @ 3,500 - 4,000 kms for an average rider @every 4-6 months right? This all sounds too good to be true, so unless my tests show positive results, i would not recommend anyone to try their luck using this HDEO oil beyond and risk damaging the engine and an expensive rebuild. Let me be the guinea pig and wait for the results.

Moving on, i took the opportunity to also get rid of the old chain slider which had visible marks of being worn out as shown in the images below. A new chain slider costs about Rs. 125/-







Pic 9, 10 & 11: Old Chain slider condition after being taken out from the bike.

we then replaced the old "jugaad" copper wire and now replaced it with a higher amp rated, well insulated, weather proof wire with soldered and crimped battery connectors.







Pic 12, 13 & 14: The old copper wire for the "earth wire mod" being removed from my vehicle.

The ends were also covered with heat shrinking wraps to further eliminate any chances of oxidation due to weather conditions. In layman language i simply wanted to ensure that i never have to go through that ordeal of my motorcycle acting up ever again!! once the installation of the new earth wire was done: connecting one end to the -Ve terminal of the battery and the other end to the earth wire bunch at the RR unit, we then put everything back and started the vehicle.









Pic 15, 16, 17 & 18: The "new earth wire mod" cable being now installed on my Honda CBR 250R.

Once the engine was started, we let it run for about a good two minutes to see if there are any engine leaks or any unwated vibrations creeping in. Once, everything was okayed by the mechanic we then put everything back on, the bills were cleared and i went ahead with a small test ride from the SVC to the streets of my place of stay.

OBSERVATIONS:

* The engine note changed within the first 30 seconds and any pending vibrations simply ceased to exist.
* Post oil change, the vehicle became even smoother.
* As mentioned earlier it was fun to play with the gearbox now, changing gears for no reason!! simply touch the lever and the gears would engage happily.

* With the installation of a thicker cable for the "earth wire mod" there seems to be even better response from my vehicle right from low end, mid range to top end which was something i didn't expect at all. Engine started at half a crank.

* The vehicle was more eager to perform. 0 - 100 came in a blink of an eye just that now the vehicle was even more eager. The engine was setting in now with a superior oil.

I intend to run this batch of Shell Rimula R4 a bit longer to see if HDEO oil happily crossed the 2,000 kms mark. If it does then we will do an early drain, and share the observations on this thread. I am also waiting for a new list after market goodies for my CBR which will be arriving soon.. so more toys to play around with while personalising my vehicle, giving it a unique identity. Till then stay tuned...

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Good Update with details I was looking forward to...

Rimula 4 is cleaning up the deposits inside the engine. It is now obvious that the SVC had not changed either the engine oil or the Oil filter ever.....It seems to be the pattern as few members have complained of this practice in the CBR250R Ownership thread... Happy to see that the FZ filter had done it's job well. The amount of gunk caught by the filter shows that the Filter IS efficient ...and available easily at a lower cost. The actual fact is both the CBR250R oil filter and FZ oil filters are manufactured by Purolator, who are known for quality at an affordable price....My Lancer Oil Filter by Purolator is just Rs.80/-...
The New Secondary Earth Wire is almost Twice the thickness of the one it replaced. This means the Earth Return resistance is now comparatively less , which would explain the small improvement in Low and Mid Acceleration, compared to the previous one.

In my Air cooled engine ZMA the R4 does not last longer than 2K+ kms...Hope in your LC engine it gives better longevity . In my Lancer car R4 had already done more than 3K+ and still good....due to aging of more than one year in engine, I intend to change the engine oil, in near future.

Like Shv18 said the Shell Rimula oil USE IS AN EXPERIMENT . DO NOT TRY till some clear pattern of data is posted by the Thread Starter in future....