Well some hope may be there for us in the form of India Kawasaki Motors and their 600s or whatever else they bring down. CKD = cheaper bikes

I have a SOLID answer to the point - PARTS SHARING.

Now if you try to look out on XBHP.. how many people want the Tank of Pulsar to be changed.. Probably 80-90% people will say that.. they want a change.. Now according to you.. companies can share parts between the bikes.. These are contradictory things buddy.

At one point people want a change... And change comes at a cost... And at the same time they want the price to match their budgets.. Boss whats happening?? If Bajaj or Hero Honda carries over certain element of previous design.. then people crib about it.. That look of the bike is same.. At the same time you are suggesting to share the parts bin?? Its grossly contradictory.

To tell you honestly.. Cosmetic Changes cost a BOMB in comparision to other changes. Can you estimate how much will be the cost of Die of Pulsar Petrol Tank.. Its over 2 Crores.. and its not Made in India. Its imported. And imagine what will be cost of whole press shop of Bajaj?? You cant even estimate that.

Now to start manufacturing a new bike.. from scatch.. Whole assembly line.. processes... welding shops.. etc etc.. everything needs money. And then if the product doesnt sell.. MONEY IS LOST. Look at what brought down Kinetic.

Just that you can and some other 1000 other people can buy a 3-4lakh bike.. doesnt justify manufacturing them in India. Thats why they import it. And Hats off to Bajaj that they brought Ninja 250 at a very competitive price... by leveraging the existing Free Trade Agreement with Thailand.. so that the duties are very low. Else If Bajaj was importing Ninja from Japan.. it would have costed 4-5 lakhs.

Now that was about one point...

Lets talk about you.. You will buy a bike 3-4 Lakhs.. And keep it for another 4-5 years atleast.. As that will satisfy your hunger.. And similarly for more people who are waiting for such bikes. They will buy it and use it for liesure rides. There will be initial spike.. and after that it will die down.

Repetition of customers will not be there. You will ask me Why?

Lets compare a 3-4 Lakh bike with a 10-12 Lakh Car. One would not prefer goin to office on 3-4 Lakh bike... But I am sure... everyone here would prefer to go office on 10-12lakh car. That means you will use the bike in night.. or on weekends... that means you are gonna use it less... so you will not look for replacement in 3-4 years time... BUT if you use your car everyday... You will start looking for replacement in 3-4 years.. And thats where the repetition of customers will come from.

But in case of 3-4 lakh bike... Most of people will not look for change in 3-4 years.. as its used occasionally. In current scenario also.. people keep their current bikes for atleast 5 years..
ALso in next 3-4 years.. your preferances will change.. and you might not want to spend again on new 3-4 lakh bike.

So if companies come out with 3-4 lakh bike.. their will be very less business... in current scenario. There is a thing called Customer Rentention.. And every company wants a repeat business. Which is very Low in case of Superbikes. People might stop buying superbikes after 2-3 superbikes.. But they are going to keep buying cars all their life.

well... considering the hundreds of crores Bajaj spends on ads each year...
2 or 20 crores for a new die isn't much...

Bajaj spent something like 15 crores to promote the Caliber 115 during the world cup way back in 2003... and it's 2010 now.

The way I see this thread, the whole point here is product segmentation, or rather the lack of it.

Agreed, India is a mass consumption market driven by the sheer number of value conscious consumers. That is the reason why HH/TVS/Bajaj have their sights gunned on the entry level 100-150 cc segment. But at the same time, there is little for consumers who want something more powerful, like say a homegrown 300cc twin for around 1.6 lakh rupees. Though the market size for this segment is relatively small, there will always be consumers for this. Let's take an example. Nokia is a $5.0 billion company just in India because of the sheer number of entry level handsets they sell. But there are a lot of people who buy the N series as well, though not as much as the entry level one. Nokia knows that, but still has a robust premium product offering. Apart from getting those well heeled consumers with these products, their upper tier cellphones makes the brand desirable, with a halo effect on the products down the ladder. I used Nokia only as a product/consumer segmentation example, and am in no way relating cellphones to motorcycles, so don't blast me for that!

Jigs, dies and molds might seem expensive at first, but when amortized over half yearly or annual production, they have a habit of disappearing. Assembly lines/Capacity/worker training? That comes packaged with the product strategy and every brand knows the investment it has to make.

Imagine if Bajaj came out with a 300 cc twin tomorrow for 1.6 lakhs which beats the crap of the Ninja 250R in bhp/Torque figures. Young consumers would then perceive Bajaj to be the coolest brand around. In the bargain, Bajaj will also ending up selling a few! But the brand mileage alone would have been worth it. Like they say, some products are brand drivers, and the rest sell.

2 Crore die is just one thing.. What about the Desiging cost?? And then there is whole ecosystem around that.. which affects the change.

Cant agree more. But trust me.. Manufacturers are working on that. Its in the development stages. I already mentioned somewhere on xbhp that.. Honda is going to launch 250 CC in January 2011. The work is on. And my friend is in the Vendor Development of the Bike.

See.. the point of right pricing is something all the manufacturers know. Its well known fact that.. India is Price Sensitive market. And making the bikes in India will be the final decision. But the Sales Numbers aka Volumes affect the decision from putting a production line here.

We are sitting here and discussing on this topic.. And dont you think.. the Car and bike manufacturers are not thinking on same lines.

Bike manufacturers must be thinking to replicate the Business model of Car Manufacturers.. i.e - Establishing production lines in India and exporting from here (For High End Products).. Just like what Honda Motorcycles and Scooter is currently doing.. Exporting Stunner from India to Europe.

Let the time come and we will find Superbikes in India to be cheaper than In US or Europe.

1. The market is very small for bikes like this 400/600/800 cc
2. Homologation issues with smaller capacity bikes
3. Assembly lines for low cost CKD's
4. Huge inventories for spares with high costs
5. Start saving and buy what is available if u want it in your youth .

We all have been over this many times and as Ken says , it wont happen anytime soon.

so many xbhp-ians are again commenting about the feasibility of such launch & the profit of the company and the failure of the product and so many other points....... but when a product comes to market it'll follow some statistical curve........ I'm taking a generalized life cycle curve keeping in mind that every player today had or is having a successful product........

so now if Bajaj or TVS launches a 300 or 400, they'll have to develop it from scratch........ then the question of advertising comes which will increase the sales and thus creating revenues........ but are we missing something which is much bigger than marketin-advertising-selling-revenues........ its the failure rate, a product will face some issues in early life-cycle........ that issues cannot be tested in a lab or in a race-track........ it takes time and rigorous use by the customers before knowing of the issues that product will face and then the company will rectify those and a better product will come out of their factory........ lets take the failure rate curve.........

initially the failure rate of every product is very high(of course it'll not be case for Honda or Yamaha or Suzuki)........ TVS & Bajaj don't have the advantage like the Japs, who are already having their tried & tested engines in the world market.........
my whole point regarding these things is that, if all the players launch a decent 300cc almost at the same time, the Japs will be at the advantage....... whereas the Indian players will be rectifying the errors & hiccups in their product and the Japs will be making profit........ then we'll curse our Indian players for their bad products and will shift to & advise others also to shift to the Japs........ now if the Indian players launch them first, we'll appreciate them and buy the products....... they can rectify their product over the time and when the time comes they can compete with the Japs, like they are doing in the 150cc category........
But we all know noone's gonna read or listen to these things. So, it's better we carry on with our rides and enjoy. Also, lets save enough for the SBKs.

inflammable(if you are not in any company's decision making part or in the marketing part), even you know that the initial demand will be more........ and the company cannot expect the same thing with the time........ the demand will mature and come in a stagnant stage......... so why can't the manufacturer understand that thing......... as for your example, the liquor shop owner will be fool if he offer only premium products and forgetting his old customers & demand for normal brands........ n even we also go to & buy from that kind of shop which has variety........
coming back to point....... the manufacturers are investing so much in so called product development, they can spend little in marketing and understand the customers' mind & demand........ they can achieve some real time targets rather than cribbing around the market being immature.........

vary true...... but we have seens Bajaj taking so many risks all in commuter segment...... so why can't they take it to the next level and give us something bigger and better........ we can't expect it from TVS who always plays in the safe side........ Bajaj can easily develop a decent twin-engine and give it to the market.......
but anything below 400cc, m not interested........ bring something worth investing.......

in noway launching a new product seems suicidal....... regarding man-power training & dealer up-gradation, only TVS is lagging behind because of the lack of some real competitive product........ Japs have SBKs and Bajaj has Ninja....... but then also it'll take some investment but at least they are at the advantage......... but no1 wants to utilize their position....... everyone is waiting for other players to launch the product....... let them wait and let us save ........

very true........ no use waiting for these players....... they're happy with their products and the profits they are making.......

Kinetic was doing well........ their products were selling like hot cakes........ but helllo, where's the service n spare........ even LML went down because of that........ if Kinetic had invested properly and developed its sales & service also, then Indian biking scenario would have been different.........
n repetition of customers will be there if there's truly some real upgrades and not paint jobs, on which company is spending crores(u mentioned that)....... u need to upgrade properly so that the customers keep coming to you till they die.........

well said bluevolt....... but it seems Indian players don't cares about brand mileage........ in some other thread it was mentioned Bajaj will drop the name and make Pulsar as brand........ so what can we expect from them....... till they face next big blow, they're not gonna evolve.........

I hate early morning replies but am glad that some people are getting what am saying.

Now inflammable with all undue respect, are you MBA by any chance, coz you do sound like one.
Now i have seen fair share of life to understand brands, investment and what not. All the racing that you see is brand building and it costs more money than the pulsar tank die-casts. No one is ever going to buy a M1 yet it is built. Win on sunday to sell on monday, builds brand and earns customer's heart. The best brands are built by capturing hearts, the most profitable ones, maybe by capturing minds. Apple is an example.
Now coming to your point of this cost and that cost. Remember i haven't told you i want a bike at this cost. And every company when it launches a product has to decide cost based on all of that you have so aptly described. Bajaj has to undercut price of Ninja that is all.

And remember the amount of time that bajaj choses to not upgrade its products is the cost that it has to incur to get the brand image back. Sooner or later they will have to do that.

And for the last time i agree with you it is not easy to launch a new product, but it is not "that" tough. I know of all the problems and small market, but i know there is a market out there for a sensible 400 cc twin or an inline four for that matter. And whenever any indian bike maker decides to launch a well made product with a good backend it will have trickle down effect on the sales of everything else that they sell. That is how it rolls.

And like a few others pointed out am ranting about product segmentation here, or the lack of it. And yes it is true everyone is waiting for the other to bite the bullet and like Bajaj bit it when they came up with a sensible 150 when 100cc ruled, they still rule, whoever does that now will reap the rewards.

Lastly think about this: Hero Honda is the biggest manufacturer of bikes in the world but it acts like it is just an assembler. Even if it makes a minuscule profit on the high end bikes it will make it an aspirational brand. And i hope we both agree that for sure HH has resources to do it. And that essentially is what any brand wants to be.

Yup it was RD & BMW 650 in mids, which again was unaffordable.

PS - Don't take the numbers so seriously!!!

Sorry to hijack this thread, lets talk something technical. as all of u know in 2009 a guy named Aniket Vardhan took a Royal Enfield Engine and developed it to a V-Twin. He took it as a Backyard project, of-course he did it in USA after learning the machining job and ended up with a finest product the 700cc Royal Enfield V-Twin constructed using two 350cc top ends and kept the "vintage" and "Enfield" cues strong.

so what i want to say, if an individual can develop a single cylinder unit and make a V-twin in over two years time, why can't a manufacturer do this?

For example take the Bajaj Pulsar 220 Fi Engine. Bajaj can easily develop the P-220's engine to a parallel twin with a capacity of 350 /500. there will be no huge costs involved because, they can use 60% of the existing Engine's parts like electricals, Fuel injection unit, connecting rods, oil pump, gear box etc.

P-220's existing chassis can be used or the engine can be supplied as an add-on kit which can be fitted to an existing bike.

Members please comment on this

I don't give a damn about what bajaj/tvs can do.

I simply don't care. I just want NO duties.

when a yacht can get away with 35% taxes why not my in-line 998cc.

We already have Motorcycles in the market, what is stopping them is taxes and I for one would not spend my hard-earned money which is not Japanese*(yup, I am ignorant)

* I have lusted after the S1000RR/RSV4/1098R/1198S/Desmo and if I hit gold while ploughing, then cool.

Exactly My thoughts buddy. I'm so fed up with the way the Indian biking scene is right now, that I am seriously considering moving abroad just due to the fact that India is lagging so far behind, not only in premium bikes but also premium technology.

I for one would not spend my hard-earned money on taxes that go in corrupt politicians' pockets.

If you can't mend, don't complaint.

Strive to make India a better place, for us, for you.

If anything can happen, It's not gonna happen in my lifetime. So why bother?

PS:Sorry If I offend anyone. I'm just speaking my mind.

forty6 :I think the soon to be launched ninja 650 will satify your requirements