General SBK Discussion Thread

[Streetfighter]

CBR1000RR Fireblade !
Now a street fighter !

Oh, and you need to get your facts right; it's a CB1000R. Xcess version, done by an italian design house.

It does look sweet and did look sweet 2 to 3 years ago too.

I had paid up for a CB1000r as ducati were making empty promises about delivery; delivery of the cb was 15 days away and got a call from ducati that the crates have arrived. As the crate opened I was around 20 ft behind and one look at it floored me. After seeing the sf there is no way I could buy the cb.

Since you choose to ignore my question about power, please let me educate you. The sf is lighter, faster (torque and bhp throughout the rev range) and infinitely better looking than a cb (to me at least; the cb looks like a pulsar, fz15).

I think you got confused between the cbr1000rr and the cb1000r. Visit the honda website and learn about the differences.

[Streetfighter]

Tenhut, please revisit your statement about the cb and sf; cb has twice the power (or performance) at half the price? Are you drunk? I don't care about s1000rr or cbr or r1; why are you even comparing them to an 848, not in the same class.

Price drop has reasons; duties, exchange rate, increase sales, etc. And yes the dealer is partly to blame but they deal in the top of the range products (cars, clothes, lifestyle products) in their class so they have got this attitude.

It seems, like already pointed out above, you just have an issue with the 848 not having a steering damper. Buy one damn it, actually I'll gift you one if you purchase an 848. And the attitude ain't going anywhere anytime soon, wait for the bimmer buddy, it is coming soon. I doubt it will be at the Japanese price range though. We'll wait for a new thread to hear you crib about that too; perhaps no adjustable frame?

Yeah I do have an attitude, for some it is pretty bad, trust me it has nothing to do with Ducati.

[superjd]

Ducati slashed their prices like nuts out here. 848 got cheaper by 3.5 lakhs OTR. You wanna guess where that extra money was going earlier ? Into the ducati "charge the customer for brand" account. Cmon dude...whether its made by hand or robot..plonk in a steering damper..the thing does good speeds...lack of one on a 17 lakhs bike cannot be justified. If running out of hands get a robot maybe or just get more hands. I dont buy the 'hand built' argument.

so its the steering damper that has you all angry... last i checked not many 600cc bikes have a stock steering damper as far as i see the supersport/sbk market in india is still nascent and as demand increases prices come down be it a ducati or anything else.

Step 1 : Buy a BMW..or any jap bike.
Step 2 : Now race tune the shit out of it and carbon fibre the thing black.
Step 3 : See how light it is now ! See how much power it now makes ! See how much torque it now makes !
Step 4 : Now see if it costed you more than the price of 1198S ?

Add in ohlins, brembos, etc and yes price does come close, carbon fibre is not cheap...

It's a small company, profit has to made somehow...
if the brand sells why not charge for it? ... apple does the same thing... that's business 101

The jap companies have massive automobile/heavy industries cash cows to rely on ... same with bmw

As i see it ducati is a motorcycle racing company that decided to make and sell street bikes for extra money on the side .. and the jap companies are mass producers that got into racing, a fine example of that is inventory from 2009 is listed at ridiculously cheap prices but ducatis are still almost at the same prices as before, at this point it does make it difficult to not take a second look at a jap bike which now is almost at half the cost of a ducati.

Point is, if you put the extra money on a jap bike or a BMW cause you wanna make it close to a WSBK bike you will end up with something that rapes the track and you could buy yourselves shit loads of slicks and still have some money left over. So the price at which 1198S stands you cant really compare it to stock bikes ! 1198S is not stock, it is to ducati what AMG is to Mercedes.

I have ridden 22 laps at hockenheim on the 1198S.
The torque advantage you speak of doesnt guarantee you a good drive out a corner. You still have to work towards getting a good drive just as much as you have to work on any other engine configuration. That Vtwins make more torque is also a wrong interpretation. They also have highest frictional power losses. A twin gives you a more relaxed fast ride due to the torque down low while the japs give you an involved fast ride. Common word for both being : fast !

Take my opinion as you would of anyone random on the street. Everyone has theirs...I am just voicing it for I love to compare bikes...I am just saying they should come out of that 'I am elite' attitude and give me my moneys worth.

actually i prefer them to have the 'i am elite attitude', besides attitude is displayed by people... not by the company, and i've met people having jap bikes with different yet similar irritating attitudes..

my next bike is a 1198S so I aint saying they should stop making bikes..

.. in fact they should charge more for something so beautiful... kinda around the price range of a bimota or a mv agusta tamburini ... at the very least you won't have lots of similar bikes running around kinda like the jap ones

yes, thats what is happening. So the others will compete now. Like everybody has since aeons. 2011 ZX10R with its gizmos and shit loads of HP is rumoured to be the BMW killer isnt it ?

indeed competition is good...

now thats a point I cant argue against. Performance on the street really is a moot point. Well said.

so its decided them.. a ducati for road use .. a jap bike for track use?

no that was just a comment to get your attention

really? i don't owe you money do i?

[AsimB]

TenHut;494650]Ducati slashed their prices like nuts out here. 848 got cheaper by 3.5 lakhs OTR. You wanna guess where that extra money was going earlier ? Into the ducati "charge the customer for brand" account. Cmon dude...whether its made by hand or robot..plonk in a steering damper..the thing does good speeds...lack of one on a 17 lakhs bike cannot be justified. If running out of hands get a robot maybe or just get more hands. I dont buy the 'hand built' argument.

Well whether you "buy" that argument on not is a different issue but yes hand built is more expensive than robot built. That is what makes them unique. I think everyone who complains that ducatis arent worth the money will buy a ducati if they had a few $$ more to spare

I agree that the ducatis are over priced in India, 4x times the price than the US. I think its ridiculous too.


Step 1 : Buy a BMW..or any jap bike.
Step 2 : Now race tune the shit out of it and carbon fibre the thing black.
Step 3 : See how light it is now ! See how much power it now makes ! See how much torque it now makes !
Step 4 : Now see if it costed you more than the price of 1198S ?

Point is, if you put the extra money on a jap bike or a BMW cause you wanna make it close to a WSBK bike you will end up with something that rapes the track and you could buy yourselves shit loads of slicks and still have some money left over. So the price at which 1198S stands you cant really compare it to stock bikes ! 1198S is not stock, it is to ducati what AMG is to Mercedes.


Lets say we have a base 1198. The price difference between the liter bikes and the base 1198 is only $3000, which isnt a lot. Now if you tune the shit out of the 1198 youl get something much better :P and the brakes on the 1198 are already much superior than the others and you dont have to spend any money trying to make it any more lighter than it already is.

As for the S the DTC itself is worth close to 5k. And yes it does make a difference.


I have ridden 22 laps at hockenheim on the 1198S.
The torque advantage you speak of doesnt guarantee you a good drive out a corner. You still have to work towards getting a good drive just as much as you have to work on any other engine configuration.


I agree, it has a lot to do with the rider's capabilities. What I'd meant was you take the 1198 and any other bike going at the same pace into a turn, coming out of that turn the bike with more torque will pull harder.


That Vtwins make more torque is also a wrong interpretation. They also have highest frictional power losses. A twin gives you a more relaxed fast ride due to the torque down low while the japs give you an involved fast ride. Common word for both being : fast !


It is definitely not a wrong interpretation! They have frictional losses like any other inline 4, even if the losses are more the torque is still much higher. See the attached images. The twin doesnt just give you torque down low, it has higher torque all the way upto 10,000rpm. I didnt understand what you meant by jap bikes give an involved fast ride? You'l need to be more involved to go that fast on a twin with that much torque


Take my opinion as you would of anyone random on the street. Everyone has theirs...I am just voicing it for I love to compare bikes...my next bike is a 1198S so I aint saying they should stop making bikes..I am just saying they should come out of that 'I am elite' attitude and give me my moneys worth.


I agree everyone has their own opinion. And i believe the 1198 is worth every penny (not in India), not just performance wise but also the look and finish of the bike. I havent seen any bike come close. The 1198s is the way to go

[TenHut]

They are mostly hand built which requires a lot of time as opposed to how jap bikes are built and assembled, automation!

Ducati slashed their prices like nuts out here. 848 got cheaper by 3.5 lakhs OTR. You wanna guess where that extra money was going earlier ? Into the ducati "charge the customer for brand" account. Cmon dude...whether its made by hand or robot..plonk in a steering damper..the thing does good speeds...lack of one on a 17 lakhs bike cannot be justified. If running out of hands get a robot maybe or just get more hands. I dont buy the 'hand built' argument.

Do you know that ducatis are always the lightest bikes in their respective classes? i own a 1198s which weights 169kg, compare that to any other bike including the s1000rr (183kg) .The 1198s is closest to its WSBK counterpart than any other manufacturer out there.

Step 1 : Buy a BMW..or any jap bike.
Step 2 : Now race tune the shit out of it and carbon fibre the thing black.
Step 3 : See how light it is now ! See how much power it now makes ! See how much torque it now makes !
Step 4 : Now see if it costed you more than the price of 1198S ?

Point is, if you put the extra money on a jap bike or a BMW cause you wanna make it close to a WSBK bike you will end up with something that rapes the track and you could buy yourselves shit loads of slicks and still have some money left over. So the price at which 1198S stands you cant really compare it to stock bikes ! 1198S is not stock, it is to ducati what AMG is to Mercedes.

I have ridden 22 laps at hockenheim on the 1198S.
The torque advantage you speak of doesnt guarantee you a good drive out a corner. You still have to work towards getting a good drive just as much as you have to work on any other engine configuration. That Vtwins make more torque is also a wrong interpretation. They also have highest frictional power losses. A twin gives you a more relaxed fast ride due to the torque down low while the japs give you an involved fast ride. Common word for both being : fast !

Take my opinion as you would of anyone random on the street. Everyone has theirs...I am just voicing it for I love to compare bikes...my next bike is a 1198S so I aint saying they should stop making bikes..I am just saying they should come out of that 'I am elite' attitude and give me my moneys worth.

by the same logic why would anyone buy a honda cbr1000rr/r1/zx-10r/ when the bmw has much more of everything and costs about the same?

yes, thats what is happening. So the others will compete now. Like everybody has since aeons. 2011 ZX10R with its gizmos and shit loads of HP is rumoured to be the BMW killer isnt it ?

p.s. i'm happy paying for brand name when performance on the street really is a moot point,

now thats a point I cant argue against. Performance on the street really is a moot point. Well said.

wait... was that a sarcastic comment when you said "twice the performance at half the price" ?

no that was just a comment to get your attention

[sheelpriye]

BMW is dominating stock WBSK series as no body's business.

In BSB it is placed 5th.

I know, Ducati has dominated WSBK and by how much, I would insist watch few mins of this video.
YouTube - Ducati 1198 Road Test Review

AFAIK, every one in a race, rides as if their ball$ are cut and tied on their head, yes riders do differ, but is more closely matched where stock races are taking place.
Heavy thread, so either take out time to read all or skip
I will quote from few forums in Europe/US & their opinions--

It has come to my attention that this first post is coming off as pompous. That's not my intent. I am just talking about my observations and my desire to pull the plug and buy a Ducati. Thank you...and now back to the topic:


I have been thinking more and more about getting a Ducati lately, but I'm having a bit of a problem...and that problem comes from observing the owners via Ducati forums and from seeing an absence of fast Ducati riders during my trackdays. My bike is fast, but as I place a lot of focus on trackday performance (almost all the miles on the bike these days are from VIR)... my shortlist of things that I need/want has migrated towards Brembo master cylinders and calipers, track focused forks and shocks, lighter wheels, etc. Ducati S models come with all that along with a kickass L-twin soundtrack...but at a $17,000 or $22,000 price.

I know that they are less reliable, but the reliability supposedly is much better these days. However, I just can't get over the fact that most riders that I see (very few obviously) ride as if their balls had been snipped off. I've only run into one Ducati rider that joined me in the Advanced group...and that was at the Streets of Willow Springs....5 years ago. Where are you guys at? I've read comments on ducati forms about one guy that owns tire warmers for his 1098 just because it makes for a good picture...no kidding. What is going on here? Am I the only one that has make the same observations?

Posers or connesuirs, which is the majority? I know what it's supposed to be, but damn it sure doesn't seem that this is the case.

Another--

as with anything that has the "exotic" label attached to it, alot of rich guys with no ability to ride buy them just for the image.

And they make great track bikes, but very few people can afford to fix them should they go down on the track. one member on here tracks his Desmosedici, but he is th eonly one I've heard of.

it's the money factor.

overall though, i'd say that a used 1098 would run a mighty fine track day. as I recall, a certain member on here, LessPeople_MoreRobots, is selling his 1098 for a price much lower than 17,000.

maybe look into it? He's in florida though, as I recall.
however, Rhetorik has a good thought. Why base your opinions on whether it'd make a good track bike on how others ride? Buck the trend. maybe someone will see you and say "MAN! those Ducati riders can really rip it!"

The riders I have seen on the street are like you said posers, that typically ride 1098's, 999's or the later 998's, same with the 748's. You typically see them in all Ducati gear...acting like they are great riders but yet they are typically sub-par.

As far as the track goes, I do not think most Ducati's that are sold are to real "motorcyclist" but to some dude that likes to say "Hey I own a Ducati". Probably same guy that owns a BMW and tries to keep up with what the Jones are doing and buying. I equate it to a lot of HD riders...they buy the bike to say they own on...but yet they ride 100 miles a year. Another factor is a Ducati cost a lot if you go down, and as those with money to buy one to say "look at me" also have little interest in 'track days'.

Then again there are a lot less Ducati's sold then Jap bikes...so maybe we just do not typically see them out there because simply not that many people have them.

Plus I bet a lot of higher end bike owners look at the bike, but typically do not ride the bike. It reminds me of the guy that owned a Prowler near my wifes mothers home, he pull it out ever day in the summer and wash it...as soon as it got dusk he pulled it back into the garage...why do this other then to say LOOK at ME!!!

So if you want to track a Ducati...why not do it if you have the means and you like the bikes.

Another & reply from OP--

You totally missed the point of my post. If you frequented a track, then you would understand where I am coming from. I could care less about image...that's exactly why I'm presently riding a GSX-R 1000. I know that a lot of douchbags ride "gixxers" and run stretched out swingarms. However, it is one of the most composed chassis out there which leads to better lap times and that's why we see them running up front during trackdays and races...not Kawasaki or Ducati, or Moto Guzzi, etc. (I'm talking about low budget grass roots racers...not big budget FIM or AMA teams). That's why they are so popular. Honda's and Yamahas are fast too...but we are getting a little off track.

You can compare this discussion to cars if you want. If you go to watch trackdays for cars, you'll see that the most popular fast car is an older E36 M3 or Miata instead of the typical exotics.

(I'm just kidding about the Kawasaki thing...my best trackday buddy could rip on one)

Another--

I am even considering an older Monster for commuting and for a more enjoyable canyon carving ride. I am lusting for a Streetfighter though. That would be perfect in SoCal. I'm not sure about the slower steering and less weight over the front, but heck man...it's one hell of a bike.

The Suzuki can remain the dedicated track bike for now. I'm finding that it can be more fun to ride on the edge with a bike that I could care a little less about with regards to it's looks. My race bodywork doesn't have the best paint job, the tank is a little dinged up, the rear rubbed against my tool box during one trip to VIR in the trailer, etc.) It's a fun bike.

My dilemma is this. Do I keep modifying all sorts of bits on a bike that I just like, or do I just buy the bike with character that came with most of the bits that I'm presently working towards on my jap bike? The Ducati will be down on power compared to my GSX-R 1000...especially if I go the 848 route, BUT sometimes it's more fun to run with the 750 and fast 600 riders instead of having the power advantage. That's where owning an 848 with Ohlins forks and a TTX shock would be a cool thing.

I'm a 2x Ducati owner (totaled my last one riding hard, FWIW). As a track day enthusiast, I have to say it gets expensive to get the extras that make it a nice bike (Ohlins, Brembo, etc) for the track unless you get the S or R model, and then you just pay for it upfront. I don't think reliability is that much of an issue, just the maintenance intervals, which are now at 7500 miles (for the bigger stuff).

As far as the posers on them (and they are on every brand of bike), I just tend to stay away from them.

All that being said, if I were looking for another track tool, I would probably buy a jap 600 and add the suspension upgrades to it instead of investing in a Ducati, but that's just me and purely a financial decision. I'm actually planning on getting a Ducati Multi 1200 when I get home from this deployment, but it won't see the track as it will be my primary mode of transportation. The RC51 will go on a serious diet for track duties.

Owner's perspective--

The Ducs aren't really as expensive as everybody assumes they are. I got my 1098 new for $13k, and my SF new for $11k. At the time I got the 1098, the new R1 had just come out, and we were only talking a few hundred dollars difference between it and the Duc. Yeah, there's crazy prices on japanese bikes right now because of the economy, but this is kind of an anomaly right now. I think people who have never looked at Ducs have this idea in their head that it costs $20k+ to get in the door, and thats just not true.

Even if its a *little* more than a japanese, look at what you get with it. Brembo monoblock brakes, Marchesini wheels, single-sided swingarm, Ohlins and traction control on the S-models. In the case of the new 1098/1198 models, you get a complete freight-train of an engine thats a hoot to ride.

Service is every 7,500mi nowadays, and there are a lot of shops out there that have the tools to service them, not just the dealers. If you can avoid paying dealer service prices, then the service cost is pretty much a non-issue. They Ducs come with a full 2-year warranty, and you can extend it to 5-years for $900. That also includes full roadside assistance and towing. Thankfully, I've not experienced anything but turnkey reliability on the newer models.

So it really boils down to how much you like them, and how much you want one. Personally, I love their styling, I love the components you get on them (monoblocks are ungodly), and really only put about 12k miles a year on my bike, so its not a huge issue in maintenance.

Interesting observation

V-twin sounds gay if you ask me, too many harmonic vibrations as well.

Reply to him--

Umm, you do realize that the Ducs sound nothing like the potatoe-potatoe v-twins that you're likely thinking of. They're a 90-degree L-twin, and they still rev up past 10k.

Listen to this, and tell me you honestly think this sounds gay:

YouTube - Ducati 1098 Full Termi vs Full Arrow Comparo

Another good post--

Everyone is spot on with most Ducatti owners. Especially in my area. I lost count on how many **** Ducatti owners have cause or involved in stupid wrecks from their assholism riding behaviors thinking they are godlike on the bike.

However, I'd hate to profile them. I've met some cool owners. I'd say get one and who gives a shit what people think. It's your toy, go enjoy it. I'd buy one if I had the extra cash. But I'd probably buy a BMW and then be labeled a douchebag.

Another--

I have to admit that when I saw that the 848 comes with a wet clutch it made me kind of happy to see it. Me no likey the sound of a dry clutch. My college roomate's 748 and 996 were cool, but the dry clutch was almost embarrassing when they were started up...kind of like a tone deaf good looking girl that decides to sing a karaoke song. It just causes you to cringe and you don't want to watch anymore...you'd rather take your drink outside and act like you need to smoke rather than have to listen to that God awful train wreck. It's kind of like that.

Imagine a Porsche that had a squealing belt/bad bearing noise coming from the hood. It's just not right...kind of like a football bat. It's kind of like that too. lol

There is no end to this debate. It is a matter of your choice, your fat purse and your like/dislike. There is a market & Ducati caters to them.

P.s.-- I have merely quoted other's views. How much it counts is entirely a different/difficult debate.

[superjd]

Convenient. BMW and 848 were merely an example to bring out the fact that the premium you pay on Ducs is towards the brand name and not performance. Its a blanket fact which applies to all Ducs...cup of tea or not.

by the same logic why would anyone buy a honda cbr1000rr/r1/zx-10r/ when the bmw has much more of everything and costs about the same?

p.s. i'm happy paying for brand name when performance on the street really is a moot point, who cares if you make 25 more hp and most of it is above 8000 rpm i will always make more torque with a twin , every other person has a jap bike, not saying those bikes are bad, i just like to be different.

This is also the same reason why folks buy a ferrari/lamborghini as opposed to a nissan skyline or a lexus lfa.

If i ever get into doing regular track days i would most likely get a R6 just cause they are cheap, parts are easy to get and quite frankly i won't be sad if i crashed it.

wait... was that a sarcastic comment when you said "twice the performance at half the price" ?

[AsimB]

Convenient. BMW and 848 were merely an example to bring out the fact that the premium you pay on Ducs is towards the brand name and not performance. Its a blanket fact which applies to all Ducs...cup of tea or not.

I own a 696 and a 1198s and ive ridden many jap bikes and I completely disagree.

Ducati are priced so high not only because of brand name! Do you know that ducatis are not mass produced like the japanese sport bikes? They are mostly hand built which requires a lot of time as opposed to how jap bikes are built and assembled, automation!

Do you know that ducatis are always the lightest bikes in their respective classes? i own a 1198s which weights 169kg, compare that to any other bike including the s1000rr (183kg) and youl know what im talking about. The vtwins have more torque to weight than any other bikes, 97lb-ft @ 8000rpm for the 1198 vs the 82.5 lb-ft @ 9,750 rpm for the bmw. The torque peaks well before on the 1198. Do you know what that means? That means coming out of a corner the 1198 will smoke the bmw. The same goes with the bhp, you have more horses on tap on the 1198 at very low rpms! I agree that the max is lower on the 1198, but the difference in torque makes up for it. The 1198s is closest to its WSBK counterpart than any other manufacturer out there.

About the price, dont compare the bmw to the 848 or the 1198. Compare it to the other jap bikes, its priced similar to all other liter bikes but has so much more to offer. Whys that? I believe bmw is taking a loss on the s1000rr since theyre entering an area where japs and italians have dominated for the last god knows how many years and they want to prove they can make equally good bikes.

[TenHut]

Huh? Thought we were talking about the CB and SF. Why would I want to compare a BMW and 848? Not my cup of tea these bikes.

Convenient. BMW and 848 were merely an example to bring out the fact that the premium you pay on Ducs is towards the brand name and not performance. Its a blanket fact which applies to all Ducs...cup of tea or not.

[Streetfighter]

Huh? Thought we were talking about the CB and SF. Why would I want to compare a BMW and 848? Not my cup of tea these bikes.

[TenHut]

do you have anything to say about the BMW example I gave ?

[Streetfighter]

I dont mind paying the premium. But I do mind if the premium is for the brand alone and not for performance.
e.g : S1000RR will cost roughly the same as an 848
848 doesnt even have a steering damper and needless to say the S1000RR has every god damn thing out there. The BMW is a true exotic bike.
I dont hate the machines....i hate the brand attitude. I will buy a Duc, one of these days when that attitude is dead. Going by way they have slashed their prices recently I think its gonna be real soon. Untill then I will just pester my friends who own the duc for rides and invest all my money in inline 4s
Will you let me ride your streetfighter, friend ?

I don't know what brand attitude you are talking about. Who has the attitude? If there is one I don't think it would die so I guess you are never buying one. How much have the prices been slashed by? I don't think it's a lot and it's still on the pricey level. I wish they were more affordable, I'd love to buy a second bike, a hypermotard.

Your statement about half the performance at twice the price seriously made me laugh; have you ever been on one? Do you read the tech specs of bikes? Don't tell me you were serious about that statement. If you were then it is sour grapes for sure.

[TenHut]

Do I detect a hint of sour grapes?

I dont mind paying the premium. But I do mind if the premium is for the brand alone and not for performance.
e.g : S1000RR will cost roughly the same as an 848
848 doesnt even have a steering damper and needless to say the S1000RR has every god damn thing out there. The BMW is a true exotic bike.
I dont hate the machines....i hate the brand attitude. I will buy a Duc, one of these days when that attitude is dead. Going by way they have slashed their prices recently I think its gonna be real soon. Untill then I will just pester my friends who own the duc for rides and invest all my money in inline 4s
Will you let me ride your streetfighter, friend ?

[Sunny]

Chill people, the CB and Streetfighter are in a different class altogether. The vibes, performance and of course the name written on the tank matters. That red CB has been always a favourite for me ever since I first laid my eyes on it over the net. The Streetfighter, is well, the most desirable naked bike in the world - i can vouch for that.

But of course then there is the omnipresent budget issue, which is why the CB1000R would make a better choice, but then the previous sentence could be equated to a single word spelled as compromise. Peace

[Streetfighter]

Do I detect a hint of sour grapes?