MY FINAL TAKE. These are the only sort of discussions that are of interest to me so I am chiming in again

If you are ever going to step on big bikes or are to ride anywhere close to the limits of traction ( which you will at one point of time or the other, sometimes due to the shortcomings of surface irregularities if not as much out of your ability to push the bike to limits of traction) then

The following is something that you shouldn't do:

1. Using any sort of brakes in a corner (using rear doesn't scrub off speed but will make the bike hold the line a little better..if done too much you will high side, using front may lead to slowing down but will result in front folding up and you will low side). Ofc not using brakes in corner is easier said than done as our survival reaction is to slow down with brakes. But lets not at least justify that its a necessary thing to do just cause we have been doing it all our lives.
2. Going off throttle in a corner.


The following cannot and doesn't make you crash when in a corner:
1. Giving gas gradually (even on the streets it wont make u run wide)
2. Adding lean by counter-steering some more. You will be surprised at how far u can lean the bike over without crashing.
3. Using your body positioning to compress the front forks thereby reducing the wheelbase of the bike which all put together results in tightening the line without adding more lean or without adding brakes to the equation. This technique is the real answer to what should be done when you feel the need to brake or slow down but its complicated and gets introduced in level 3 of CSS

What works safely at fast speeds is essentially what works safely at low speeds too. The fundamentals don't change because one rider is pushing to the limits while the other is taking it easy.
So what does work safely at fast speeds is something that has been worked out for us by a million of fast riders out there who ride on streets, track and in dirt.
If K.Rajni tells me to be off the brakes and he is a 9 times National champion and if Andy Ibbott, a MotoGP coach at CSS*, black flags me because I was using 'teddy bear' braking then its a no brainer for me that I am to listen to them because they got their credentials and lap timings to back it up with. The rest of us just got our keyboards and screens and at times google to back things up with.

Everything else is just theory-making. Come to the track and see what disadvantages trail braking comes with and perhaps it is only then that one will realize that this isn't a safe technique..and if it isn't safe on the track then it never can be safe on the streets either. Saying street riding is different to track riding is just an excuse to justify the unhealthy habit of trail braking.

*CSS isn't a race school. Its a street riding school so what they say applies to street riding. They do have a race school and its called by a different name. The reason why they conduct their sessions on the track is because they wanna remove the variables like 'oncoming traffic', 'oil spillages', 'gravel' etc out of the equation so that you can focus more on the technique first. Then once u know the technique, riding WITH variables on the streets is just an extension of the already learnt techniques and doesn't require re-hauling everything learnt to a different school of thought.

That said, just to be fcukin politically right and so that someone with a weak constitution doesn't take offense to what I,Nav,Niks,Vishwas or NV are saying, I will add in...
"To each his own"

Have ridden a few times at the limit of traction, though never on big bikes.
- Riding though few sections of a road covered with a layer of crushed ice. The actual layer was a few inches thick but trucks that went by had created a canal of crushed ice. There, even any kind of acceleration was putting the rear into a slide. Forget about using the brakes. At places fall meant end of life as it was on the edge of a valley. (Straight section on a flat surface)
- Riding uphill for a couple of km's on freshly snowed road. With traction at its lowest best, it wasn't as bad as previous case (of riding on crushed ice), we had only option to control the bike via acceleration and gravity working in out favour. (Straight section uphill with a few curves)
- Heavy rains for almost 150+km's of ghats and twisties. For most of times, the speed was controlled via throttle and gear box.
- Coming downhill on a dirt track. I was already in 1st gear and had to cut the speed and the only option I had was rear brake. This was done a few times.

I would love to see this in action sometime. As per the theory and basic physics, without leaning the bike, it got to run wide. How wide, will depend on how much you gas.

Have scraped my bike's foot pegs, while leaning the bike. You can't lean a bike more than that. As I haven't crashed yet while leaning the bike, I guess I haven't yet tested the limit and I would like to keep it like that for as long as I can, on public roads.
Even on other bikes that have their foot pegs a bit more rear wards, you can lean the bike only to an extent before running out of traction (due to low contact patch). Then the solution is to start body shifting. Body shifting is fine on a section of twisties that you are aware of but not on an unknown road. As when you start shifting your body weight, your vision into the turn, as compared to more upright body position will be reduced. Reducing vision into a corner on a public road, isn't the best thing to do.

Fundamentals don't change but the rider who is pushing the limits is going to crash more often than the rider who is not pushing close to the limits. Hence, what a rider pushing to limits might not do, the rider who is taking it safe could do.
While there are many riders who are against using of trail braking and braking while in a corner, there are also many people who do either/both of them. Including some racers.

Talking about credentials, not doubting theirs but without sounding rude, I got close to 3L km's of riding on Indian roads in various conditions (1lane, 2lane, 4lane, 6 lane, 8 lane roads; back roads; mountain roads; off-roads; ice; snow; gravel; etc).

Ask those racers, sometimes it feels so easy/safe to ride on a race track than an average Indian road.

Since we keep learning all the time, the reason why I'm going to CSS to learn new things.

People were riding before google or its creators were even born and most of them did decently good at riding.

Have been to track a few times, including a riding school. Have done my share of doing no-brakes, entry-point, exit-point, apex, front brake only drills.
The reason why trail braking/braking in corner on track could/should be banned for beginners is that there are ZERO variables on the track to worry about. On track one can easily push as hard as one wants. And as I said previously, trail braking/braking in corner could land you in trouble when you are pushing close to limits.
On street, at least I, don't push anywhere close to the limit. Hence, I haven't faced any issues with trail braking/braking in corner at way below riding on limit. But that's just me.
May be, over a few cup of their choice of beverage, I will have a 1-1 conversation with the instructor to get their views about the same.

There are a few things that we can't replicate in a controlled environment. Like for example, a steep downhill with a U turn at the end (extent of slope, you can judge that the bike would be doing close to 80-90km/hr without accelerating).
You would already be in 1st gear at the start to turn, would have braked to cut down all the speed. But still you will keep gaining speed due to the slope. Here, you got to brake to but cut speed, example of trail braking.

Not that I always use trail braking/rear brake in a corner. Just that in some cases I find trail braking/braking in corner to be safer than otherwise.

NEVER SURRENDER !

None of the things done above(uphill or downhill in snow/ice or dirt) are for cornering as I am sure as fcuk you weren't cornering going into ice. Our discussion is just about cornering and traction mid corner in lean and not about uphill or downhill on a dirt or ice and the available traction then as braking before turning in the bike is NOT trail braking.
Old habits die hard so some still do it and continue to crash...you don't have to be at the limits to crash because of trailbraking(its a misconception) Also...it is very difficult for a rider who has been riding for 10 years to even know when he is nearing the limits. Nearing limits and identifying them isn't really an easy job at all so the idea isn't to get away with mistakes because we ain't nearing limits but the idea is to be doing the right things should the traction limit suddenly raise its ugly head.
Not sounding rude either but street riding a gazillion kms will never teach you anything about sport riding. Sport riding is best learnt in a specific environment and on bikes meant for sports riding(like the R15 or RTR) at speeds which expose the chunks in traction and rider input.
It is only when money is at stake( racers at GP level) that trail braking has its rewards otherwise its got no place in cornering. Now of course you say you do it all the time but you also say you aren't cornering as fast so basically it doesn't matter what you do in corners for it isn't cornering at all.

This and plenty more is replicated at various tracks around the world if not in India. The above scenraio is replicated at Isle of Man, Northwest Trophy, and at BSB. Corkcrew at Laguna Seca has so much descent its like climbing down 3 floors. Yet the rules of braking remain the same there. All braking needs to be done BEFORE you turn in the bike and not after that. Any braking done BEFORE the turn-in (like braking to cut off speed when coming downhill) is NOT trail braking at all. Its normal braking.
Same here !

Well this is getting interesting. As NV has pointed out its good that people are finally discussing about something related to riding.

The man in question, Shrinath Rao, the best way to get some idea about the different aspects about not doing something is to actually do it. Head to Lavasa on a non traffic day (except sunday, with a partner), find out a good corner and try all the stuff you have doubt on. Get in the corner at a speed which you are comfortable with, try braking using your front brake, then try again with the rear brake, then try downshifting mid corner. Try to visualize that there is a truck over taking another truck on the corner and the only space you have left is a white line (the road boundary) on your lane. Your only way out is the white lane and you have to ride on it. AM just giving you a scenario. Try developing yours and then it would be good fun.

Have been following some very good riders consistently to lavasa, of late, and can tell you that, if you know the road most of your problems would be solved. Keep your ego on the back burner and never try to follow some one who is better skilled than you and take your time with doing all these and you would mature into a wonderful rider.

Once you try out all these you would know what to do and your instincts would hone you to act the same way when you face the same issue on an unknown road.

After attending CSS twice. It being a big no-no as per them. You still do it?


Some of the instances were to mention about my experience of riding at the limit of traction. As I mentioned, all but one were in straights.
The last, coming downhill in off-roading, I had to continue braking even when in the corner.

and some who don't, also crash. So, what's the point?

Then who will know when the limit is being reached?

When did sport riding came into discussion?
And what is your definition of sport riding?
And how you know I have never done sport riding?

Then what is cornering?

And none of them are in India. So, how you learn about them in India at CSS?

Along with the original point of discussion:
- Maintaining line, when putting on gas and without leaning further.
I would love to see a demo of how to take the above corner (downhill U turn) without braking while in turn.

Tomorrow I'm going with a friend to Khandala. You are welcome to join but as he is not a experienced rider and I'll be on a bike under running-in - we will be riding slow, ~60-70km/hr. Still, trail braking/rear braking while in a corner, both can be seen. In fact no need to go so far, I do the two things at times, during my daily commute as well. But again, I do at my comfortable speeds, not sure if you guys can call that "cornering".

Are you kidding me ? Its about the physics of two wheels and rubber science . Braking is done before the turn. It doesn't matter where in the world you are riding in what sort of turn downhill or uphill or u turn or not in chennai or usa or uk or chandni chowk ! Braking is done before the turn. Its a healthy practice..I still end up braking when in a corner because its difficult to kill old habits but I acknowledge that and don't tout it as a thing which is ok to do on streets. I guess after doing it a few 3L kms it must be becoming plain impossible to kill this habit. I am glad I am killing it now.

You are talking of you having sharpened/learned your skills when being at the limit of traction in a straight line when riding on ice and touting what you did then to be the modus operandi of tackling corners. I am getting the fcuk out of this discussion. Hallelujah !

And the same physics says that when you increase your speed in a turn, without adding more lean angle, you will increase your turn radius. One of the original point of discussion.
Also, I'm not saying trail braking/braking in corner is good/bad. I just shared my exp that I do it. Just like you and many others.
While you have been told by many experts in this field, not to do it. While I, and may be many others, have found it working for them and hence continue to do it.

Please don't leave. We were having a nice discussion. As I said early in the thread, such discussion are a good place to learn and share.

Some of my un-answered points in the last post, if you can answer will be a good learning experience:

I would love to learn the following in bold and I'm serious.

My 2 paise

Whoa, I've to second NV that is the best riding/cornering discussion happening on Pune thread since the big bang. I'm following/reading/re-reading the these posts & believe me it's worth it. [And so much that it's pushing me out of slumber to write this!]
I too have attended CSS this year (though didn't get to practice afterwords so that brings me back to zero & all money in drain ). So what I did is I watch the 'TwistOfTheWrist' once again today and here are some points from that:
You can also see in that video (at 00:18:00 mins), when the first rider messes up the throttle control, he gets onto a inner line. And the second guy maintains the good throttle control & he gets onto a relatively outer line & faster too.
Another material related bang-on to this discussion, I found at this link:

It says:
Appeal to TenHut,Nav75,Nikhil,NV,Jakrap,Roger,Ashu,Sagar, Ritwik,Mithilesh & all - Guys please don't go away from this discussion. We need your inputs (your end of story) to support the discussion going here. [I know all the buggers r following this ]. And with CSS being just around the corner & many attending (excluding me this time), I'm sure CSS-returnee will share their experiences & change in thinking with all of us.

@all other who r witnessing the history being written - Even if you just Google the keywords used in these posts like Chassis flex, teddy bear cornering, I bet you all will get to learn few new things. ( i did google them out as I didn't know what the hell is teddy bear cornering)

[Just for fun]
And while we are at it - learning about different riding/cornering styles, here's another school of thought at your disposal:

As usual I have nothing constructive to add but i can't help wishing that every new rider could LEARN to ride on a track. That would make him/her infinitely safer and faster on the road. Once the ass-saving instincts become a part of your riding behavior it's very hard to get rid of them.

Try doing a cliff-rappelling course and you will know what i mean (especially if you have a fear of heights). You KNOW the equipment is super safe and you will NOT fall, but the moment you look over the edge, you can't help but shit your pants.

Nav, in my humble experience it's a little futile for people like us (as we are not among the world's best motorcycle chassis and suspension designers) to try and apply laws of physics to modern REAL motorcycles. The dynamics change dramatically when you go from a sub-130 kg. sub-15 bhp "motorcycle" to something that will kill you instantly and unapologetically if you try to manhandle it into a corner like an Apache.

There isn't much engine-braking, weight, or corner-speed on, say, an apache so it WILL corner at speeds much closer to its top speed (e.g. 60 kmph for a given corner compared to its 100 kmph top speed), compared to say, a liter bike (100 kmph for the same corner compared to its 280 kmph top speed).

At the same time, superbikes/literbikes are evolving VERY quickly and slipper clutches, ever-decreasing wet-weights, etc. are their way of countering their inherent disadvantages as cornering tools. Modern riding schools attempt to teach riders to take maximum advantage of these innovations. If the bikes themselves are no longer compliant to the intuitive laws of physics, why should riding practice continue to be a slave to physics?

Scraping your pegs is no measure of cornering ability. Not necessarily talking about YOU here so don't jump on me, but a lot of us end up scraping pegs just because we don't know how to use body positioning to cornering advantage. Also, scraping pegs on a commuter happens a lot sooner than on a supersport.

Again, having many lakh kilometers of riding under your belt is no indicator of SPORT-riding ability. A lot of what one does in Ladakh or bumper-to-bumper traffic has little or no use on a racetrack or your favorite B-road. I think the point of the discussion is to make us all better SPORT riders (and maybe some of us even into better RACE riders), not better commuters. I think most Indians are awesome commuters and THAT, is their biggest hurdle in their path to becoming sport/race riders.

Again, looking at the futility of trying to bring physics into the equation, look at something like a supermotard like the Husky for example: a softly-sprung dirtbike with street-tyres, high center-of-gravity, intense engine-braking and explosive acceleration from a single-pot engine, no slipper clutch, should be a recipe for disaster as far as cornering is concerned. But is it that? Not really Not by far.

Just to be clear/share my views.
The grip on handlebar, while being firm should not hold handlebar tightly.

A couple of times, in this thread, I have mentioned that I have no exp of riding big bikes and hence what I'm saying is as per our Indian bikes.
In case you missed, the points that I mentioned and we were discussion (at least in the beginning) were:
- When you increase your speed in a turn, without adding more lean angle, you will increase your turn radius. This is something that was taught in school physics and one doesn't need to do a Ph.D in chassis/suspension design to understand it. If this law doesn't hold true now, may be someone needs to re-write the physics books.
- Trail braking and braking while in corner.
Don't know which comment of mine made you think I'm discussing chassis/suspension designing. In fact, I don't even recall most of the tech terms and hence most of times have written in plain English.

Again my question, what is your definition of sport riding?
And how do you know about my(or anyone's) "sport riding" ability?
And I seriously want to know the definition as I don't know it. Definitely not as to what is called "sport riding", even though I might be doing/have done it.

As far as I know, the original poster, Shrinath's query wasn't related to racing. Not sure if it was related to "sport riding" (as I myself don't know what it is). He asked a simple query related to cornering(in case what he was doing can be called "cornering" ) and the reply and subsequent discussion were related to that.

What we do in Ladakh might not have any relationship with the race tracks (tarmac ones) but it is a good learning ground for those who was to do rally (one more form of racing).

What we do/learn on regular mountain road is somewhat different(basic rules might not differ, but the way we ride differs) than what we can do on a race track. Again, there is no guarantee that someone who is good on race track will be good in mountain roads (right away) and vice versa.

And before we can discuss about being better at sport riding(not sure if the original discussion was related to that), can you please help me with your understanding of what is "sport riding"? Because, if I don't know what is "sport riding" and if I have never done it, there is no point of me saying anything related to it.

And in case you also think what I have been doing till now is not cornering, you definition of "what is cornering".

This is the most logical approach for cornering. Hoping to learn lots from CSS 2012 . will be sharing my experience once I am back.

Its very nice to have such discussions and I felt really good that the thread is alive again but did you guys realize that this discussion is also like a chat we have on a G2G. It is beneficial to only the people present for the G2G and nobody else. Like the G2G chit-chat, this text will be buried in the archives and new entrants(and noobs like me), say 1 year down the line, will ask for similar tips requiring the same discussion again.

At that time, instead of building on an existing excellent discussion like this, you guys will have to start one again from scratch.

The point of this post is, this discussion belonged to a separate dedicated thread which can be used for discussing sport riding techniques. Say a 'Pune Official Sport-Riding Discussion' thread or an 'xBHP official Sport-Riding Discussion' thread. I feel even non Pune people(who do not frequent this thread) have every right to read and comment(albeit responsibly) on all the discussion that happened here.

Hoping that I am not misunderstood and reporting my own post because it is OT.

I agree here. It is said you should be holding your bars as lightly as you would hold raw eggs in your hand. The only time you are holding the bars is when steering the bike. (counter-steering the bike that is)
You steer only once in a turn so ideally you are holding the bars for a very tiny amount of time through the duration of the turn.
This becomes all too important when riding a big or small bike fast. The position is aggressive and there is bloody too much weight on the bars. But you cant hold the bars unless you are steering and that is a short period of time. Hence you got tankgrips and everything else to make the rider hold to the BIKE with THIGHS and LEGS and not with HANDS ( thats why every GP rider has 36 packs unlike Ghajinis 6 packs !) The bikes are designed to enable the rider to hold on with legs. The rider is hence positioned slanted forward so he can bend his knees and hold on to the bike. If a rider sits upright on a sportsbike the bike becomes un-ridable. Luckily for us humans the slanted forward position also means less aerodrag. But heres the twitch...when sitting like this you have pressure on the bars. But what do bars want ?
Bars only welcome forces parallel to the ground when steering. So steering is horizontal movement of bars. When having weight on the bars you will add vertical forces into the forks when steering and that messes up the front traction. I crashed at lavasa on my blade cause I had too much weight on my bars and was steering. Holding the bars hence is not allowing the bike to do that which it needs to do, to not crash in a corner. (Gyroscopic and Centrifugal/petal forces be blamed)
I was refraining from getting into the gory details of explaining this cause its a little too elaborate to explain this phenomenon. But consider this.

When you lean your bike you basically change its gear ratios. Next time you ride look out for your rpms.When you lean your bike your rpm drops even if you got a steady throttle. If you throttle now you may bring the engine rpms built to what it was before the drop but you still wont be going faster. In fact in a lean on a steady throttle your speed goes on decreasing.
If you aren't rolling on the throttle in a turn, you are slowing down - Keith

Instead of rolling the throttle on, you have to accelerate hard enough to achieve that sweet 40/60 weight transfer for best traction.
This all sounds geeky but the funny thing about it is when you do these things on track you see your laptimes drop like a house of cards. You are going faster without knowing what it is that you are doing. You are just gradually rolling the throttle on in a corner. Not too soon though.

Now on the other hand when you go OFF throttle in a corner you are doing the following:
1. Loading the front
2. Reducing the ground clearance at both ends instantly
3. Widening the line
4. With more weight on the front the steering becomes uber responsive and every rider input is magnified at steering and basically you crash this way or that way if lady luck isn't with you.

Why you go wide on going off throttle is because in an angle to the ground when the bike is in a state of lean, loading the front acts against the natural direction of the bars to stay in that lean ( acts against counter steering) and the bike first tends to stand up setting the rider going wide. After you have gone wide wondering why you went wide the bike will eventually start falling to the inside again but that still doesn't change the fact that you ran wide in the corner.

Knowing what works on a bike and what doesn't when riding the bike. Then taking it to that level where I find the zen in my breaths every time I am looking at the world tilted. And when I ride beyond my abilities, I crash. So the natural tendency is to be more able so you can push your boundaries without crashing. And that is a life long process. That to me is sport riding. Doing all this for passion,money,fame,death and glory to me is racing.
You are making it look like the turn above needs a definite braking effort in lean. What if you enter this Downhill U turn with a corner entry speed of zero ? Will you then need throttle or brakes ? So brake to an entry speed after which you don't need to brake to make through the corner at that speed on your planned line at that lean.
So a demo can be shown by entering with the right corner entry speed which you can do if you finish your braking before you enter the the turn and which Vipin Rathore made a mention of a few posts ago which Niks quoted to be the best approach.
It is the best approach.
I don't really know about anyone's abilities. I am just quoting and replying to what is being written by whomsoever. Not talking of anyone's abilities or experiences but merely replying to what occurs to me as upsetting the bike more when the goal is to make it stabler in a corner.
The art of it.

+1.
That will also help us learn from other people, who might not have had a look at this thread as Pune thread is what they might not look at, as they aren't from Pune but can surely contribute a lot to this discussion.
Regarding OT, I guess anything goes in Pune thread, so no reason for referring it as OT.


+1.
One more reason to hold the bar as lightly as possible is, often the motorcycle adjust itself to keep itself balanced, holding the bar too tightly hampers this process and the motorcycle could becoming unstable.


Totally agree about changing the gear ratio when leaning the bike. Would like to add more here (for those who might feel a bit lost reading it).
When we lean the bike, we shorten the gearing. This is true for bikes that have round profile tyres. The amount of change in gearing will depend on the roundness of the tyre.
The reason why gearing becomes short (when leaned) is, as we lean the bike, the contact patch of tyre in leaned position, is lesser in diameter (as compared to when in upright position - due to round profile). As the tyre circumference is part of the overall gearing calculation, the gearing changes.

Don't think the revs will drop though, when leaned. As we lean the bike, the speed will drop, for the same revs as the gearing has gone shorter.

It is when we standup the bike, from leaned position, the gearing gets back to normal (taller as compared to when leaned) and now the revs will drop for the same speed.

PS: Won't advise anyone to try looking for these readings on console while riding on street (can try on race track). But a safer and more accurate way would be a camera (like GoPro) capturing the console while you concentrate on riding.

Just to add, in case someone wonder's why this magic number of 40/60. It is the weight distribution of your bike. In case your bike's weight distribution is different than 40/60, we have to try to achieve those numbers. To know the weight transfer of your bike, you can refer to your owner's manual or measure it yourself.


Just to quote Keith Code himself:
What he says as a rule is:
"Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn."
What I was referring as "running wider when you increase the speed in a corner", is also spoken about by Keith and he also says that gassing on too much will also make bike run wide, just like cutting throttle.


Can you please put that in plain English.


The issue with downhill U turns is, unless you enter the corner at almost standstill speed (not practical on streets), even if you have slowed down to correct speed, the bike will keep gaining momentum due to slope and it being a U turn, there isn't too much space to take a wider line (due to higher speed) and hence some braking has to be done.
Well, that's what I have found to be safe on street.


I was refering to the following comment of yours.

Whoa, good to listen this much info from all experienced riders, As jakrap mentioned i will surely try doing it. And secondly i observed that when i use my rear and front slowly before i hit the apex, the front was like behaving more like stoppie. Scared i let the front and back go, and i observed that the bike was pretty responsive and turning like something on my command and it was a feel good factor, though i dint leaned that much.

Dont know its the way how R15 responds that when you wanna turn in corner you just turn and it instantly leans and when the mid corner was done unconsciously it came up and throttle was on full. yes i was doing this in 3rd gear of R15, as i had a doubt if in other gears after slight braking the response would be same or no.

Was i wrong somewhere ?