TROLL ALERT:
Move this to a seperate thread I say!

I hope the highlighted part answers your query/ies.

Truly this is the best discussion this thread has witnessed.
Had a good re brush of the cornering principles.

Lets put this up on a dedicated thread, I am sure many will benefit.

I have doubt on engine braking,
For me, if i don't downshift before a turn, I feel under powered at the Apex.
Is it normal or I am missing some basic.

I guess you are 'cruising' in a gear taller in that case. I always needed that on an R15 going uphill.


@Rohitlc: Where is the event happening?

Normally we use brakes to slow down, as the job of brake is to slow down. But then sometimes we need to make an exception.

Engine braking starts as soon as we cut the throttle (many times one can control the speed with just throttle too - without using brakes/downshifting to slow down). But the moment we pull in the clutch to change a gear down (trying to engine brake), we are freeing the rear wheel and at that moment the speed of vehicle will increase and we will have to use more braking power to control it.

Effect of just cutting the throttle and pulling in the clutch with throttle being cut (but no brakes being used), can be experienced while coming down hill (in a "safe" environment). While coming down, if you just cut the throttle, there will be some amount of braking (engine braking), without you touching the brakes. The moment you will pull in the clutch, bike will start gaining speed without you having used throttle.

What we can do is, clutch-less shifts. For this, use the brakes; when revs falls enough, you can tap the gear lever and drop a gear. The amount of revs to fall before you should downshift, you have to learn by experience & practice. In case the rev hasn't fallen enough, while downshifting (clutch/clutch-less), you could lock up the rear wheel for a moment. Some people, to counter this, blip the throttle while down shifting.

Many people often do is, while braking, pull in the clutch and down shift. This could increase the overall stopping distance and could also, sometimes, lock the rear wheel for a fraction. Not the best of ways.

Again, the above are from my personal experience. I'll say, practice them and decide on your own, what you feel you are comfortable with and share the findings.

PS: The above experience is with respect to 4st petrol engines. Things could be a bit different with Diesel and 2st engines.


You don't need to downshift always, while taking a turn. Normally you would want to have a good acceleration while accelerating out of the turn.
If you don't downshift sometimes, as you would be cutting your speed before entering the turn, you might be out of power-band/meaty pull when wanting to accelerate = the feel of under powered. Hence, normally, we should try to be in a gear such that we can complete the turn without having to up-shift. In case we are confused between a gear low or a gear high, we should opt for higher gear. This will make sure we don't have to try and shift while in the corner.

Firstly I am glad nav75 is finally buying my point
We don't have to change the physics books then anymore.
Its settled then :
1. In a corner one has to throttle on gradually.
2. Going OFF throttle in a corner leads to bike running wide.

Yes throttle has to be gradual(have always said that) But that that gradual throttle is a LOT. Like I said...just maintaining the throttle steady would still mean you are decelerating in a corner. Giving it a little more gas will mean you are now maintaining the same speed. Giving it more gas than this will ensure 40/60 weight distribution. Keith also talks of 'gradual' throttle because the bikes he teaches on are monster powerhouses. A lot of other bikes require a lot more throttle.
Brush it up and come back to it. You will get it.
Again, that is not how you take a downhill U turn safely. Not that you cant take it that way. Clearly you can..you just put yourself at a great risk. If your momentum is gonna increase through the turn due to the downhill then keep that in mind when doing your braking before the turn and make sure you brake a little bit extra to compensate for all this but brake BEFORE the turn. You not only wont be braking thru the turn you also have to accelerate thru the turn. You suggest doing both together ? Ofcourse not.
Downhill riding is difficult for the same reason. Downhill is always more difficult than uphill.


Now, clutchless downshifting is complete NO NO ! Clutchless is for upshifts not downshifts. You increase wear and tear and getting it right for downshifts is near to impossible. You also stand to ruin your gearbox big time.

Braking and shifting before a corner includes :
1. Go on the front brakes
2. Pull in the clutch
3. Blip the throttle
4. Downshift
5. Leave brakes
Downshifting is done and finished while on the brakes. Doing this doesn't increase your stopping distance. Not doing this will. But its tricky to get all 5 steps above right all the time. That's why braking and downshifting is an art.

What I said, was always as per physics books. What others were saying, was kinda going against what's written in physics books.

One of the original point of discussion was, "start accelerating and in mid corner". This is assuming that you were already giving the normal throttle needed to complete the turn. And that additional acceleration that you are going to give in mid corner, will make you run wide.

Also, the amount of "gradual throttle input" that one will give in corner, amount of that will also decide your cornering line. A more amount of input will require you to have either more lean angle/wider line, as compared to lesser amount of gradual throttle.

This is why in a tighter corner (where you have to take a tighter line), you give lesser amount of gradual throttle through the corner. And hence your speed through the corner is lower.
This is why in a wider corner (where you can take a wider line), you can give more amount of gradual throttle through the corner. And hence your speed through the corner is higher.


Tried, didn't get it and hence asking.
Waiting for that "cornering" query.

I guess we had enough of theory, with neither of us making any progress to convince the other. May be some practical will be the solution to it.
Regarding accelerating, no, I won't be accelerating down hill, thought the turn. As the gravity will be making the bike gain speed on its own.

It is tough, that's why I said, with practice you can learn it. Once you drop enough revs(this is the "key") by using just brakes. It is very easy to drop a gear down, just tap it and it falls into place.
Again, as I listed, these are some of the ways to brake. What one wants to use could depend on the situation.
When you try to down shift with high enough revs that's when its difficult to do clutch-less and can damage the cogs and also lock the rear wheel.

Also, sometimes you can slow down enough using just the brakes, and hence once you have slowed down, you need not downshift to start accelerating after the slowing down is completed. So, downshifting while braking and then again up-shifting while accelerating could be avoided, if followed the following listed steps.

I wrote: if you pull in the clutch, it will free up the rear wheel from engine braking and once engine braking is gone, you will require more brakes to achieve same amount of braking.
If you don't give more brakes then it could increase the braking distance.

its just a matter of practice. been doing it on all kind of bikes for around 12 years. never had an issue of a ruined gear box.

Just LOL
Again, thats not true.
Again that's theory making. Throttle control in a corner is to set the bike up for maximum traction so that it holds the line and doesn't have much to do with carrying more speed or less. You could be carrying less speed in a tighter corner and could need more throttle to be opened as compared to the amount of throttle u need to open in a fast flowing corner.
More speed through a corner or less is purely controlled by ENTRY SPEED and not by opening the throttle more or less to go faster or slower. Also the line you should take isn't decided mid corner by opening the throttle more or less. You pick your line before you enter the corner and in EVERY corner except for double apex corner you have to "go on increasing the throttle"
A line which doesn't permit you to go on increasing the throttle steadily is a bad line. A line which allows you to do that is a good line. That's basically how you know which line is a good line and which isn't.


Then it prolly has nothing to do with English at all.


Nav, do you realize what you are saying ? You are openly suggesting CLUTCHLESS downshifts to all on the forum. You are openly suggesting using BRAKES mid corner. Do you know how much a clutch-less downshift (even when done right) will destabilize the chasis and load the front ? Even the quick shift modules you get for race bikes are only there for upshifts and not downshifts.I fail to understand why you are projecting that what you do as a safe way of doing things ! Who propagates clutchless downshifts ? Who ?
This is not having a nice discussion. This is just being adamant lol. What you are doing on the bike with downshifts and brakes mid corner is wrong in every generic sense. Just accept it. Don't make it a legit way to do it because you do it that way and have survived till now. People make it alive out of plane crashes too but it doesn't mean its safe to crash a plane.
You ask me how I know your ability. I don't know it at all except that through your posts you make it evident to me that its not all that.

P.S : Why you shouldn't clutch-less downshift no matter what anyone says and no matter however long whoever has been doing it for. An excerpt from California Superbike School forums

Try this. Enter a corner at the same speed.
Once open the throttle more gradually thru the corner.
Once open the throttle less gradually thru the corver.
As per your theory above, the speed thru the corner will be same, the lean angle will be same and the line taken thru the corner will be same. Right?

Not all corners require you to keep the throttle gradually increasing, irrespective of the line you take. They require you to hold the throttle at times.

I was refering to the following comment of yours.
I guess you have never ridden a motorcycle with a broken clutch cable. May be, riding for ~3L km's did had some advantages.
Regarding braking mid corner, people do it. Racers on dirt do it.

I'm not suggesting any thing, just sharing my experiences.

Regarding clutch-less shift, I guess there are some more people who have done it.

Same feeling here.

Feeling is mutual.

Instead of this never ending discussion, I suggest that we will try to understand dynamics in upcoming G2G so mere mortals like me can actually understand it.

Can Nav, TenHut and more important topic starter - Shrinath kindly remain present for this?


Xbhp Weekly G2G

Venue - Grubshup

Time - 8pm onwards

Date & Day - Wednesday - 28-12-2011

Can we have a WebEx Link ?

I spent my whole day reading and trying to understand all these.
Maybe this is why XBP is usually blocked in my office.

Kieth Code is gonna laugh at this. He isn't coming this year for your session at CSS but his son Dylan Code is and I suggest you take it up with him. I think CSS is either gonna open your eyes or it may plain simply fail and you will never return back to the track.
I have ridden a Ninja250R at lavasa with a broken clutch cable. That was two weeks ago on Vipin Rathore's Ninja. I didnt do 3L kms to experience a broken clutch cable. And when it broke we ceased riding and got it fixed first before we rode again.
I guess you have never heard that no one with a broken clutch cable even attempts to do cornering. So a 'broken clutch cable' scenario is really one pulled out of arse just to cite an example as to when to do a clutchless downshift. Perfect..do it when you got a broken clutch cable.
And racers on dirt use rear brake in a corner. I spoke of that when I mentioned Nicky Hayden.But the same racer when riding on tarmac doesn't use his rear or constantly tries to eradicate that habit. Plus we are talking of tarmac road riding and not dirt,ice,glacier,slush or broken clutch cable riding.

Firstly yours is a Guess. Secondly there are some people who have gotten their ears, tongues and limbs pierced for all their lives. Must be the right thing to do. Sure !

I think laptimes should be a sort of a mandate to have such discussions. Else anyone can claim anything and make it look legit. And then someone will read it and go try braking in corners and clutchless downshifts and wonder why he crashed or fooked up his bike. Until we don't do that there isn't really a point to having discussions about sport riding as there is no reason whatsoever why someone should think you are wrong and I am right or I am wrong and you are right. Until then we are just two blokes on the internet with inflated egos.
So come CSS I hope to settle this discussion with you. You with your coaches and me with my bike. Ciao

P.S. I will be at the G2G this coming Wednesday.

Also as regards to the U-turn coming downhill (aka downhill hairpin)
We can all ride to lavasa and I can ask Ritwik, Roger, Sagar or Gamer (only these 4 as these actually know what they are doing when in a corner) to take not one but 6 downhill hairpins (yes there are 6 downhill hairpins at lavasa)
And if you stand back and try to see.. their rear brake tail lamp will never light up once in any of the 6 haipins but they will be accelerating and on the throttle in all 6 hairpins.
So visually it can be found out if they are braking or not by keeping a watch on their brakelights. And the sound of their engine will tell you if they are on the throttle or not.
Sorted !

Correct me if i am wrong here. I feel the R15 has a advantage where you can do your mid corner corrections which none other bike provides apart from sbk and ninja.