@Killer:
Nothing better than having a National Championship Rider chime in.
Trail braking no doubt is a tool for every racer in the world. A racer is well versed with the risks associated with it and is well trained to ride on the edge.
Like you said...Kieth isn't comfortable teaching it cause its an advanced skill best done at the track by those who have been around in the racing scenario for long. I personally will be elated when I can get enough sense of feedback and riding on traction limits to start riding on the edge. Until then I am gonna keep my fingers away from trail braking. As you said...tons of other things to learn before one can add trail-braking skill to ones kitty.

7th I might just be able to make it to lavasa. If I am riding down to Chennai I wont be able to make it. If I am transporting the bike I will be there albeit without a bike.

May be someone might want to give gyan to Killer, like before his post, on how one doesn't run wide when opening the throttle in a corner.

Excellent thread. Feels great to see a thread with a nice healthy discussion.

+1000 ... that was the essence of the discussion and everyone of us has seen it the same way.....

Who All coming: (add the name to the following list)
From Pune
Nav75
Niks
Alok Das - Inflammable
ROCKRZ
Shrinath rao
vivekjayasheel
Sumit_B
vrathor
rishabh (as he is not able to login :P )
Meghnad
Ritwik23
Eshan P180
Vivek
Siddharth_zmr
Inder
RedFlash

From Mumbai
Rony (tentative if Saturday / confirmed if Sunday)

PS: Standard rules regarding safety gear and documents to be followed.

Yay, my name got mentioned above !

OK here's the deal. You are merely using Killers post as a green signal to go ahead and use trail braking. As much as you say that this discussion is being for learning purposes only, you aren't in it for that. If that were the case it would have ended long back. Killers post is suddenly making you think of your point as invincible..or at least so it appears to at its face value.

Pay attention to the background that Killer comes from. He himself mentions that he read a few posts and not all, so his reply is not really in sync with the real discussion at hand. Had he read all the posts he would see me quoting that although trail braking isn't a safe technique riders sometimes end up doing it out of compulsion. Using trail-braking as a technique and having to use it out of compulsion because your survival instincts have triggered are two different things.

• Killer speaks only about racing and the advantage that trail-braking then offers when in a competitive environment.

• You are recommending trail braking as a technique which Killer is not.

He is merely pointing out to the fact that one shouldn't indulge in a knew jerk reaction the moment one hears about trail-braking, and I agree with that like I agreed to it before when I said I too do it sometimes but am striving to eradicate that habit. Lets not discard trail-braking as monster but lets not advocate its use and Killer isn't advocating its use.

Don't jump onto Killers post as a face saving measure because it is remotely resembling your previous point that downshifts are done clutchless and turns are taken with brakes on and without throttle on.
You were in agreement with gear ratios being lowered when in lean and hence the necessity of giving throttle and thereby not going wide because you are merely compensating the lowered gear ratio. Then killer comes and says on throttle you will "eventually" go wide. Do not ignore his word "eventually" conveniently.
If we are in this for learning sake then lets pay more heed to what Killer says. Killer is not advocating use of trail-braking on the streets nor is he saying it is for beginners or intermediates at sport riding (which you, shrinath and I are) He is simply recognizing it as a tool to overtake or make a pass in a competitive environment. In a competitive environment where even the rider weight is ruthlessly exploited to an advantage it is not a surprise that racers will use trail-braking once in a while just to gain a position or avoid being passed. That's racing and in racing a crash is treated like a daily affair.

On the streets crashing is not an option and hence the lesser on the edge you ride the better and safer it is. The more technically right you ride the better you will be able to come out of a sticky situation.
No point reading about how to catch a slide when you don't know how to avoid a slide in the first place. Same principle applies.
As Killer mentions..tons of other things to learn,absorb and implement before you can even venture into trail-braking and even then it is a hugely debated topic, while Kieth Code's school of thought is against it Freddie Spencers school of thought is for it. But both deny its use on the streets. Freddie Spencers teaches trail-braking in level 1 because his is a racing school. Kieth Code's is not. On the other hand Andy Ibbott refuses to let Thomas Luethi trailbrake in a competitive environment like Moto2 and Thomas Luethi goes to win the championship without it.

So while we recognize that there are two or more different schools of thoughts wrt. trail-braking let us not ignore that all the schools merely stress on the advantage that it can be put to to belt faster laptimes and make a pass but never ask you to ignore the inherent insurmountable risks it comes with.

@Killer: I request you to put it in plain words for everyone that your post is not recommending nor advocating the use of brakes while in a turn and that your chiming in was to point out to the fact that when ones riding for money and glory aka in a race, its a tool that can be exploited but comes at great risk. As is the case with everything in life..its a skill that one can learn to exploit but comes at an equally high cost.

Now those of you who are in this for learning, please take your own call as to whether you want the added risk on the streets before you really sharpen and understand bike dynamics and the changes to it through rider input when in a corner. Ignore the bickering. Avoid using brakes in a corner or risk going down. That's what the entire learning boils down to. Period.

@Nav: lets end this endless "king of the hill" battle. I would rather battle with you on laptimes than on words. Since I am gonna see you at CSS soon, I am sure we will have laptime battles too and we surely will have videos of those.
Point is..let riding settle the debate for us two while others who are in it for learning derive their conclusions through the ongoing discussions.

Wow, I read through this thread right from the start and I haev to say its been a sort of eye opener both for cornering technique as well as rider mindset.

But amidst all these parries and touche's, I cant make out if both of the main contributors are addressing the same point. Didnt old fox's post summarise it all? Anyway, Ive taken the pain to think about this whole thing..I hope you all wont mind me spilling whatever came out of all that churning here.

Im a higher primary school level noob BTW. I also have never been to the track. So, I hope mine will be akin to a child's perspective on this.

I see where nav75's point is coming from. As already stated, while trail braking might be generally considered an unsafe method, we can get away with it and even comfortably use it a lot of times simply because we have good error margins while riding on the streets on our low capacity, low weight machines. Im not sure how it works for you all, but I have an instinctive restriction to pushing to the limit and I find that Im riding with soem safety margins, which allows me to play around with the brakes and lean to a small to fairish extent.

I have been instinctively using trail braking as well as tapping on teh rear brake to shave off a bit of speed and adjust my line on unfamiliar roads. And I can only gather that its beacuse, unless Im on my daily commuting route, I dont yet have an ability to process the right entry speed and line and I end up improvising with trail braking....and this has, by force of habit, spilled over to my regular corners as well. So it all seems normal to me atleast.

But at the same time, I also have to agree 1000% with tenhut's point....Ive found that the lesser I fiddle around with the brakes and all during the corner, the faster and stable-r Im taking it; and that whenever I consciously push for a fast corner, i subconsciously back away from trail braking and finish up my braking and shifting chores before I turn.

No doubt about giving throttle...to accelerate just enough to keep the same grip on the road. Who really goes overboard on the throttle unless its a newbie on a wilful 2t?

But tenhut, I honestly have to say taht I dont relate to this cornering kung fu of yours. If i prefer some room for improvisation, does that make my kung fu weak? Im not really cornering?

So, as far as i can understand it, nav75 is looking at things from above average street riding with a go0d safety margin perspective; tenhut is looking at it from a better safe than sorry, riding perfection perspective. So while the topic seems the same the details and circumstances involved on each side appears different. Judgement: Postponed. Since this discussion is aimed at average joe street riders who want to have some fun; I guess, as has probably already been mentioned, the case is inconclusive and circumstantial.

On my part, I will say that I will not use trail braking while pushing fast into corners but I will use it under normal riding circumstances until I learn to better process the road and my bike....in other words, I will use what my riding instinct says is acceptable until i happen upon something better. And finally that if Ive learnt anything at all about riding right, its through riding wrong. I hope I will live long enough to exhaust all kinds of wrong riding or better yet, learn from you all about how to just live long.

I might have probably missed, misunderstood or reiterated a point. Forgive me, its only my interest in finishing this post thats keeping my eyes open now. Rest of the arguement about downward u tuns and clutchless downshifting seems....zzzzzzzzzz.

If only I could attend CSS just to see where I stand.

Point #1
Lets first clear, if you think there is a difference between riding on a race track and riding on a public road (twisties/ghats) or not? Remember the original question, to which I was replying(and even mentioned in one of the early posts) was with respect to "public roads"(streets).
PS: "Public roads" is NOT EQUAL to a small section of twisties that we know like the back of our hand.

To me, while some things are same between riding on race track and public roads, there are variables on public roads that one doesn't need to worry on race tracks.
Hence, while one might never have to worry about some situations on a race track, he has to tackle those situations on public roads.
One such example is: some obstacle (pot hole, stone, on coming traffic) in a turn; that (obstacle) wasn't visible when you entered the corner.

Do you agree with this difference?

All the discussions from my side were/are with respect to riding on public roads. You kept on switching between riding on race track and public road, at will(may be for you there is no difference?).



Point #2
In one of the early posts, I have summarized everything that I have said. Let me repeat it once again:
1. Yes, you can use brakes while in a corner. Trail braking, while entering a corner is one way "and" using rear brakes gently while in a corner in another.
2. Using brake while in a corner should be a secondary option, normally one should try to enter a corner at slow enough speed. But streets(streets NOT EQUAL to riding at a small section of twisties that we know like the back of our hand) are often full of surprises and hence sometimes you need to touch rear brake to take care of such surprises.
3. When you are leaned into a corner, often you can't lean more (being on street, for various reasons), then you will run wider than the line you are taking in the corner, if you gas on the throttle(without adding more to the lean angle).

Remember as I said in #2, using brakes should be your secondary option. This option is to be used (using the rear brake - while in a corner), when you need to avoid some obstacle on a public road. This approach is also mentioned in a couple of links that I have shared in this topic (in couple of different replies).
You did mention that we should counter-steer in this situation but that is not possible at times, for the following reasons:
- You could already be leaned a lot and can't risk leaning any further.
- You are in a right hander and to the right of you is traffic coming in oncoming lane. Here, to avoid any obstacle ahead, you can't lean, instead you have to think of slowing down - often to avoid the oncoming vehicle.
No, these two situations are not pulled out arse (as you would say). These are instances that you could come across when riding on public roads.
As you could encounter these situations, its better to know about the actions to take and practice them before, rather than being not aware of what to do when come across such scenarios.

#1: "Trail braking" and "using rear brake" is something that I use as and when required. It is not something that I do in "every" corner. I never said that one should use "trail braking", I just mentioned it as one form of braking. I shared my experience.
"Using rear brake in a corner", I shared my experience and the instances (as mentioned above) in which I might use them. At the same time I did mentioned that either form of braking should be your secondary option.
As OldFox has mentioned in his post, that I always meant but somehow might not have explicitly specify:
"On public roads we don't ride at the edge of our limits, our bike's limits, limits of the tyres grip. Hence, we have enough buffer to correct things using brakes(not in a way to lock the wheel) in a corner."
All my comments were keeping the above in mind.

PS: I am all ears to learn. Waiting to hear Killer's view point.

It was #3 that you refused to agree and I guess hasn't agree with & god knows what all theories you have put forward trying to justify your point. Not sure if you have understood the comment at all or not. Let me explain it one more time (explained it earlier already):
The point here is, when you are leaned into a corner (as you are taking a corner, you would already be on the throttle). Now, while leaned into corner if you "gas" on further. You "will" run wider.

Clutchless downshifts - I have already mentioned about when I have done it. Why one should know about it, so that in case its needed, can be used. The scenario being:
- Broken clutch cable. (have just mentioned one in this thread).
- When your bike drops, you could either break the clutch lever or the yoke holding the lever.
And no, I never said do clutchless downshifts in a corner. In fact, I even mentioned that if you do a downshift (with clutch) in a corner, it could lock your rear wheel and hence it should be done before.

Did I ever said to take turn without throttle? (Other than coming downhill). Please point me to the respective post. Thanks.

I always knew that and always try to follow it. Do you?
Doing knee down's(why is it on the edge - if you want, we can discuss this later) on street/going flat out(in twisties/straights), to me is riding on the edge. Its better to be left to be done on race track. As on street, you have traffic and other variables to worry about.
Even if on street where you can block the traffic to practice(no one does and not sure if one can block the traffic), its not safe because:
- Streets are not designed (like race tracks), to handle the scenario what if a rider crashes.
- On streets in case of emergency, often medical help is not as easy to access, as a race track.
If as per you using brakes in corner, when riding no where close to the limit, is unsafe on public roads. Riding on the limit(above scenario) on public roads, is even more unsafe.

Just the riding skill don't show up in lap time. How much you are willing to push closer to the edge(your risk taking quotient) is also what decides your lap times. Yes riding skill teaches you to know your limits but when pushing for lap times, even the top racers crash, trying to go faster.
It is this risk that one needs to take, that I can't take at this stage of my life. I have lots of responsibilities on me and hence I can't risk crashing just trying to prove a point. To me riding is for fun and not to prove a point - not any more.

But every time I visit a race track, I always try to find out my lap times (once towards the start and once towards the end). For my personal improvements and visit to CSS won't be any different(if I'm allowed to time myself).
Like during my very first visit to Kari riding a CBZ, my best time was ~1:40 and during second visit riding Killer's Apache (in street trim?), it was ~1:37(as it wasn't my bike, I took it even safer as I don't prefer crashing, more so if its not my own bike). (Don't recall the exact times, hence mentioning approximations). Third time, as it was a riding school, didn't get chance to time myself. I know none of these times are any earth shattering, but they were checked for my personal improvement.

To me, the way to judge how good or bad a rider is(on public road), is to check the amount of crashes with respect to km's ridden in a specific time period. We can measure on that part too.

Even on the race track, while the lap time matters, again one need to learn to avoid crashes. As the saying goes, "to finish first, first you need to finish". You might set the fastest lap time but if you aren't able to finish the race, no points to you (ok in some championships, there are points awarded to fastest lap too - but that won't win you championships; mathematically its possible though).

I think the two of you (Nav and Tenhut) have very valid points and i like 2strokerama's summary above, if theres anything i would want a rider reading this to take away from this discussion it would be pretty much what 2strokerama has understood of it. The only reason i felt the need to add my comments was because of 2 things.

First: Tenhut man you remind me of myself some years ago when i'd learnt the laws of riding from this incredible teacher Keith Code. After developing an understanding following his teachings and implementing them, i felt this had to be the be all and end all to riding. The level of detail the man has gone to to explain, the animations, videos, scientific reasoning. This all simply had to be it, and any other schools of thought werent worth considering. Over time and with experience, this view has changed for me. While i still stick to my roots and core principles i've learnt from Keith Code i've also realized something else. There is so much more to riding. One life time isnt enough to unravel its mysteries. I used to critisize people for their poor body position, my own body position is text book perfect and i was proud of it, a lesser body position didnt cut it in my book. Then from experience in racing i learnt other things that a book or school wont teach you. I learnt about this thing called a riders 'feel'. This is what straight away sets apart an average joe who does 2min around the track his first time and the average joe who goes 30 secs faster his first time on track on the same bike. This is also the single biggest thing that sets apart the best racers from the good racers. Look at a rider like Mick Doohan who rides completely crossed up on a bike, a total no no as per Keith Code, and yet we all know what Mick Doohan has achieved. The same goes for Troy Bayliss, another legend. He changes his body position from corner to corner, varying from extremely crossed up to text book style. My point is, i realized if you restrict your thinking to a particular school of thought, you cannot grow further as a rider and riding is not as simple as that. Some basics you want to stick to regardless of what you do, like for example 'keeping the bike stable' but then Its not simply black and white, there are many shades of grey. So, Now i try to incorporate techniques learnt from various sources (the asian riders, the european, aussie etc) as well as things i get a good 'feel' for on my own (which may be aspects that are unique to my riding style and work for me)I've found better results this way. In my experience, i've observed riders have largely been of 2 types, Naturals and those who have to learn even the basics (lacking natural skill). The naturals are quick straight out of the box, riding purely on feel. But then feel alone is not enough, you DO need to learn the right basics techniques as well, so you see this all goes hand in hand. The other set of riders, dont have natural skill and they adopt a 'by the book' riding style and follow a particular school of thought and stick to it. These riders can also eventually get pretty fast too. At the end of the day, there isnt just 'one' way to learn how to ride fast and safe, theres many things to consider and more than one way to skin this cat. So coming back to the points we were discussing. I'm not disagreeing with you that trail braking shouldnt be taught to new / intermediate riders and i think you've understood the essence of my post correctly. However my only suggestion to you is open your mind beyond Keith Code and you will learn more.

Second Nav: You're experiences on street are valid my friend and have taught you many things, your understanding (from reading your post directly above) is largely correct, though i myself wouldnt advocate any sort of clutchless downshifting (save for a broken clutch cable of course). My only issue with your posts has been nit picking at Tenhuts posts. If you stop doing that, you'll see both of you mostly agree with each other and this didnt have to go on for 3 pages

Cheers

My two paisa: try whenever possible to do all your braking before you turn. Ideally, you should be at a steady speed through most of the turn, and applying throttle as you exit to help stabilize the bike and stand it up. This is what the US Motorcycle Safety Foundation teaches, as well as many advanced rider and racing schools. Contrary to an earlier poster, adding throttle will tend to stand the bike up, while removing throttle or adding brake will drop it lower. Trail braking is possible going into a corner, but again, I recommend getting off the brake as soon as possible.

Keep in mind too that Indian bikes tend to have very narrow tires. This does mean they're more maneuverable, but it significantly reduces the total available traction in a corner. A greater percentage of available traction is going towards turning the bike, leaving little or none for any additional braking. That said, even bikes with narrow tires can lean far enough to scrape the pegs, if ridden carefully. The key is for the rider to be looking where they *want* to go, not where the front wheel is pointing.

If, for example, you're out riding, and go through a curve that tightens up halfway through, if you are looking at the exit of the curve, your reflexes will automatically lean the bike more to accommodate. It feels a little weird at first, but you're much less likely to panic and run wide or lowside if you focus on where you will be after the curve instead of looking at the road inside the curve. This habit also has the advantage of decreasing your risk of getting in a wreck. If you always look where you want to go, you're more likely to find "escape routes" that will help you avoid hitting things. This is a known phenomenon especially for off-road racers who have a saying "if you look at it, you'll hit it".

Just to add a little more: Many years ago, the staff of the US magazine "Motorcyclist" developed a riding technique they called "The Pace". It was intended for riding on back roads and twisties, and involved fairly high speeds and as little brake as possible. They considered it a negative to have to touch the brakes at all, and would rag on riders who flashed a brake light coming up on a corner. Everything was done with throttle and engine braking only.

That kind of riding isn't always possible in a town or city, but the techniques still hold. As much as possible, get your entrance speed set before you hit the corner. Look through the corner to your exit instead of focusing on where the bike is at the moment. Stay off the brakes if you can.

Small correction. Accelerating through the turn is perfectly fine, you do not have to be at a steady speed. What you DO want to do is, maintain constant roll on through the turn from the point when you crack open the throttle. This again is one of the basic principles of throttle control learnt from Keith Code.

I'd like to add, this is again an issue normally blown way out of proportion. The width of the indian bike tires is more than adequate for some very serious cornering ability. More than width, tire profile and tire pressure is key. Bikes with decently setup suspension, like the RTR's and R15's can all corner exceptionally well even on hard trail braking. Again as a DISCLAIMER i'm not saying go out and start trail braking, please NO and especially on the street where you do not know the condition of the surface, big NO. But just to illustrate the capabilities of these machines, on a clean road surface like a track, you can trail brake so hard on a bike like the R15 to have your knee on the ground and rear wheel almost off the ground and still will not loose the front, thats how much "buffer" you actually have. Regular riders dont come anywhere close to that sort of riding on the street. So when the average rider falls on the street while trail braking, its mostly due to improper technique, poor condition tires / incorrect pressure or something on the surface like gravel. The same applies if a rider looses the front and falls even 'without' trail braking. Bad tires, Incorrect tire pressure / something on the surface of the road is usually the culprit. Otherwise it is so so hard to loose the front on a bike (even indian bike) and virtually impossible to do for a rider of average skills. For me personally i'm a heavy trail braker and In all the years i raced, not once did i crash due to trail braking, it was always while getting on the gas or some other reason


Good points on vision, again one of Keiths key principles.

My opinion for whatever it may be worth . . .

I have been riding a bike nearly every day for last 24 years. I have not crashed in last 20 years. I have covered more than 2 Lakh km in those 20 years. So I must be one of the good riders as per your definition.

I am not. I am a commuter with mediocre riding skills. You can at the best say that I am a cautious rider. So I think that the above definition needs some changes.

Your point of each rider having own riding style is perfectly valid. But would you teach other riders to sit crossed up on a bike? Would you teach them to pull out a leg while cornering because Rossi does that?

The basic riding techniques remain constant. Each rider can decide whether or not to follow those techniques.

The discussion was about correct riding technique and not about riding abilities.

ps. I have already mentioned my credentials in the first para

Nice video with tips from Kevin Shwantz.

MotoGP Braking Techniques with Kevin Schwantz - YouTube

PS: Watch rossi at 1:05 to 1:15

I might not teach it but i wont restrict a rider from developing his style once he understands the basics and i wont tell him my way is the only way. Hope you got the point.


They both go hand in hand to me. Your point was?