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answered in previous post

@Killer: Thanks again for sharing your views.
"Clutchless downshifts", "Trail braking", "Rear brake use", etc .. all that I said, are my experiences of things I have done/do, some or the other time. That doesn't mean I do them all, all the time and specially when in a corner.


There is no single way to decide about skilled/lesser skilled riders. What I mentioned, could be one way to do it.

I think the word "commuter" is often underestimated. Looking at Indian traffic, people's traffic sense & road conditions, if someone has never fallen/crashed while riding a bike in hundreds of thousands of km's (even if that means riding in city/around it). It is an achievement in itself.
So, as you want to call yourself, a commuter. You are really good at that.

Same way, If someone wants to call himself a good tourer. It could be measured by how much he fell/crashed while touring.
Same way, If someone wants to call himself a good "sport riding". It could be measured by how much he fell/crashed while "sport riding".
But, in case of racing. Winning is one clear way(not the only way) to decide. There is less ambiguity to judge a rider in that area. But then there is more to a rider's skill that is involved in racing.

Have a look at attachment! @Killer- I guess this is what you (and people like you) do to score lap time.

Trail braking is a motorcycle riding and driving technique where the brakes are used beyond the entrance to a turn and are gradually released up to the point of apex.

In a broader scope, trailing off the braking pressure either while straight line braking or, as above, after turn in has begun, allows for a less abrupt and more accurate final corner entry speed adjustment. Some corner entries, such as decreasing radius turns, are more adapted to the leaned over trail braking technique. In turns where a quicker steering action is more applicable, trailing the brake while turning in is unnecessary.

-Wikipedia

[Note - As an abinitio, I follow (and will follow) throttle control rule no 1 before entry without touching brakes. But yes, Survival instincts hamper this rule quite often. I m not mature enough to feel rearwheel feedback! So there is no question of trail braking. I feel more comfortable and confident on 3rd gear (allowing engine braking before entry) and on Throttle than brakes and downshifts.]


Now my question is - What is Traction Control? We often hear this term and latest machines do adopt this technology! The term itself is self explainatory. But I want to know how it functions....and how rider feels the difference in the corner? Is received 'traction feedback' different than conventional one?

The attachment is not entirely correct in depicting trail braking, there is one key aspect thats been missed and most riders who try this miss out out on. Your goal while trail braking is to keep the bike stable and be ultra smooth, otherwise it will go very wrong very quickly. There is a point where releasing of the brakes and cracking open the throttle happens simultaneously ie: there is overlap of these two actions. Your wrist is cracking open throttle and fingers are still releasing the brakes smoothly. If done independantly as shown in the picture, the front suspension will come up from a loaded position too quickly and destabilize the bike. Its very easy to loose the front when this happens.

This video by Chris Stone, explains it well. Also if you watch the video i posted a couple of posts back, you will see Rossi doing the same thing

Trail Braking: How and Why - Chris Stone - YouTube

I havent ridden with traction control so sorry cant help there..

Ok, let me accept something here. I don't keep my front brakes on till so deep in the corner. Does that still qualify as "trail braking"?

The other day, I was discussing how trail braking could improve lap time. @Killer, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Lets say Rider #1 is not going to touch the brakes in a corner, so he will be done with all the braking, gear change and all just before he is about to lean the bike. Let say the speed at that point is 60. Once leaned the bike, he will start giving some amount of gradual throttle.
Now Rider #2, who decides to trail brake, will be able to carry more speed beyond the point where the #1 leaned at 60. That means, #2 has already crawled some time on the other guy (can also be done by late braking?), as #2 was faster than #1 till that point. Once, in the corner #2 will start easing off the brakes (still faster than #1 and hence closing), probably till the time his pace is on par with #1 or he has slowed down enough to fully release the brakes and get on the throttle.

Again, in the heat of a fight for position in a race, all this theory might not hold much true. I'm told, in such scenario - the so called "perfect line" also goes for a toss.

Nav if you're asking if the guy who is trail braking will have the faster laptime. yes but it depends on a few factors, also its all millisecond advantages at the higher levels of racing. Trail braking from the point of view of improving laptime doesnt work on all corners, so that means it has a dependency on the tracks layout. In fact the picture above isnt a very good example of a corner where trail braking is useful for improving laptime. Its particularly useful on longer more winding curves as the wikipedia article has highlighted. Quick short turns dont need it. Now without looking at laptime alone, the real the value of trail braking regardles off the type of corners involved is in being able to take position over the other rider and control of the racing line.

By definition if you are still trailing the front brake even after leaning, you are trail braking. You dont have to go so deep.

This discussion is turning out to be the most rewarding in a long while. Thank you guys.

Going by the way things are moving I can just add to what Killer has stated. His stress on 'smoothness' is not to be taken lightly. In fact it is the key. Smoothness in any transition phase while riding is the core to executing that transition well. The transition can be a lean -in or lean out of a turn, giving or removing throttle inputs, applying or releasing brakes, shifting through the gears or even pulling a wheelie.

Each transition can be divided into several discrete elements and we do that to better analyse the actions therein. In a turn for example, the entry, apex and the exit are usual discrete elements. But a good turn is a seamless blending of what are the ideal actions for each discrete element. For example, down-shifting, braking and weight-shifting just before the entry blend with the actual lean initiation, throttling up, unleaning, throttling up harder and finally exiting upright. Smoothness comes from just the right amount of overlap between each action so that the 'flow of actions is fluid'. Even Nature favors such seamlessness. The bone blends into cartilage which in turn blends into muscle and to the skin thereon. It is such 'organic' blending that forms the key to a well executed maneuver.

The reason for this smoothness/flow/blending etc etc is pretty rational. Smoothness is synonymous with predictability. And that's what you need to be able to evaluate any change in the inputs and adjust your actions accordingly. Be abrupt in your inputs and the results will be equally abrupt. Hard to understand and so hard to correct. Our brain works mostly on predictive logic the best because nerves and muscles take finite time to react and good prediction makes 'real-time' reaction possible.

But mind you being smooth doesn't necessarily being slow. Smoothness is about actions executed in time proportionate with the time available for them. Watch Chris Pfeiffer pull a wheelie and even though on the face of it you'll see it being done almost abruptly. But watch the same in slow-mo, frame by frame, and you'll see a very proportionate movement of the wheel from horizontal to vertical with respect to the time of the maneuver. Its is the same with our Rossi's and Doohan's during turns. The movement from upright to knee down, if reduced to a curve (angle vs time) will give a nice linear progression with soft dips at the start and end (the initiation and the 'soft' touchdown). And this smoothness is again best learned as you work up your speed gradually starting from slow.

A bit of an OT here: most of you also drive cars. Try this little exercise at smoothness, something that I used to do in my Maruti 800 a long time back. Fill a heavy coffee-mug about 3/4th full with water and place it securely on the dashboard of your car. Now drive and make sure no water spills out, especially during acceleration, gear-changes, braking and turns. Of course do it on almost empty roads or you might end up spilling something else unintentionally .

Practise that on a mountain course for long enough and soon, you'll be the a top touge driver??

This sentence needs to be in BOLD and UNDERLINED.
When Killer talks of right tyre pressure while trail braking and smoothness it just cannot be taken lightly. For example my tyre pressure on the Blade when on the track is 28 rear and 30 front. Yes, less at rear and more at front.
Manual suggests 42 rear and 36 front. Huge difference so much so that the first time this PSI was suggested to me i thought it was a joke

So smoothness and other tyre pressure details, which Killer wont stress on much (because he is a rider beyond any one of us involved in the discussion right now and takes it for granted) is bloody important when doing anything of what he is suggesting as an alternative tool.

Best cornering discussion ever. Somewhat like what happens over at dedicated cornering forums.

@Killer: I am sure I too will start looking out for the rider "feel" and where i stand once I am done with Kieth Code. But its gonna be a long while until I reach that level haha. Until then I will stick to the basics and when I feel I am ready I will come over for a session at the Apex Racing School. Too bad I couldn't make it to Apex Racing Schools first coaching session of 2011 as was planned with Anil. Bloody accident

This discussion has been such an eye opener and feels great to see a genuinely useful thread in quite sometime.

@Killer

Few years ago when i first made up my mind and started cornering in desolate stretches of tarmac, i was shit scared ( still am though ). The first thing that came to me instinctively was to be always smooth on the throttle and brakes at all points of time. I had not started reading up online, nor had the opportunity to learn the art from some skilled rider. The fear of crashing and wrecking my bike is what made me go easy on the controls. The first time i ever read anything about trail braking, made me realize that i was doing something similar subconsciously. Though i was nowhere near those insane lean angles and fast exit speeds, but the basic funda was there. However i thought it would be better to leave it for the day i start doing track days and genuinely learn from someone.
After going through all this, it makes me wanna head to the track

@OldFox

thats exactly how my dad taught me to drive smoothly after i had finished my session with the driving school.

Glad you mentioned it. After I read my text again, I felt like I have made it look like something similar to DRS of F1.

Thanks.

Not just in riding, but in many other things we do. We often want it to be "smooth" (I don't want to list down the things, specially when I'm getting into a party mood).

The way, I often practice this smoothness is, I can easily remember two instances:
- We were riding on NH17, mostly in heavy rains. Other than coming downhill, I tried to minimize the use of brakes. Tried to control the speed via throttle. Another reason for that was, I was running with rear wheel that was breaking its spoke rapidly (got to know about it later) and hence I wasn't feeling comfortable.
- Back in 2003, we were riding down some back roads. There was some gravel on riding surface and lots of gravel (at places) in the middle of road (what is formed when too many 4 wheeler's travel). Again there, I told my riding partner, to try and ride in a way that you don't have to run onto the middle of road as that won't be a nice thing to do. Again, being smooth with throttle and brakes helped as the surface also had gravel and either of them used "hard" could have been "exciting".


Ok, I didn't used the liquid test but when I started riding and later driving, my dad told me one thing. If the person sitting behind me doesn't start pressing my shoulder(where he would be holding me for support), while I'm riding. I'm doing ok.
In case of car, if the passenger in the rear seat can go to sleep (unless they are simply too sleepy), I'm doing fine.

The road surface and car's suspension will also play a part in liquid test. May be, I will try it sometime soon.

May be Killer and others can correct me, if I'm wrong here.
One reason we should run lower tyre pressure on track(irrespective of if you use trail braking or not - as during my last visit to track, I in-fact rarely used brakes) could be that, the track surface is superior in quality and as we push a bit hard, the tyre temperature goes up more than when riding on normal road.
So, if we ride with manual mentioned air pressure, after the tyres are warmed up, the tyre pressure will be way more and will hamper the grip and handling.
Just to add: we need to remember to updated the tyre pressure before we head out on the road, from track.

Contact Patch is the KING

Well in some ways cars are useful. I am a novice rider. But I learnt to drive in the hills before I learnt to ride in the hills. And my dad taught me to drive, and touching the brakes was always a big no. I guess I inculcated that habit into my riding as well. I don't ride fast in the hills, being a beginner and all that, but I do try my best to ride completely on gear, like I would do in a car.

Also after attacking the twisties in a car, I gained a lot of confidence to do the same on a bike.

Nice to get a nod from a senior. Im reassured that Im not wrong in my thought process atleast.

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Sorry for OT, but regarding old fox's post, i was wondering about its effectiveness as a training method.

All I can imagine is that it will force me look farther before I leap....say liek thinking 4 steps ahead than 2.