Re: Pulsar 200 NS Owners Review and Experiences

Hi,

The seal sizes are as follows
[12 - 24 - 4] for single lip ones.
[12 - 24 - 7] for dual lip ones.

Decode the numbers as [ID - OD - AXIAL THICKNESS].
One could use thicker seals too since axial length is pretty ample.

I bought VITON seals and I'm testing it in my AS200 runs fines till date clocked 5k since the seal change.
I won't recommend it although unless it gets tested in 390 as it's more prone to failure. If this seals shines in 390 then it's good.

The link for the 390 Forum is pasted below:



Thanks and regards
Manoj Sivaraman..

Re: Pulsar 200 NS Owners Review and Experiences

Agreed.
Initially the coolant gallery walls where thin. Which caused failure of the RTV sealant due to coolant pressure.
The seals too has to withstand temperatures upto 100°C and pressure upto 20psi which is 1.4kg/cm^2.
Post 2017 KTM upgraded the thickness of the gallery walls. But the finishing and tolerances made the RTV sealant hard to stay in place. Since the entire coolant loop is pressurised. That particular area fails.
So the finishing was changed to a coarsely finished one. Which makes the RTV sealant to stay in place.

Have suggested weepholes and larger seals like kwackers. But KTM is stubborn on keeping the pump area compact. So they don't wanna change the design (no company will do R&D and change the design right. Expected).
So we might change the seals like a consumable. Just preventive thought.

There is a 390 forum where it's mentioned RC 250 cup bikes use silicon oil seals with metal structural reinforcement. Will try to find and post the link. He posted the part number too.


Thank and regards
Manoj Sivaraman..

Re: Pulsar 200 NS Owners Review and Experiences

Beautifully explained Manoj. Viton coated leaves, as a matter of fact is being used on the head gasket for the 390 better thermal stability of the gasket IIRC, in fact a guy abroad did mention the same thing after repeatedly blowing his HG during track sessions.

Another point is the improper case sealing as you'd mentioned, which had been the case and admitted by KTM themselves where it mixes with the engine oil internally and makes a latte eventually. Eventually, they did did a recall for a certain set of 2017 manufactured bikes, IIRC.

Incidentally, the older Dukes had pump seal failures, the newer ones had pump seal along with gasket failures. One more great point you made was the dual lip oil seals, they in fact are a great change, but still the heat and coolant acidity just doesn't make them last longer.

I'd suggest a mechanical seal like that of a CBR would be a great addition and would definitely last longer.

Cheers!
VJ

Re: Pulsar 200 NS Owners Review and Experiences

To my knowledge it's a small and simple fix.
Just open the water pump. Older models has a circlip and single lip oil seal two numbers.
Newer model post 2016 has dual lip oil seal inner one and a single lip oil seal.
It can be pried and removed with a special tool or forcibly with a flat screwdriver (note: ultra flat and small).
This job depends on the severity of the mixing.
Incase of 390 there are two possible ways of coolant mixing.
One through worn-out seals.
Another one through the coolant galleries at the centre case.
Improper gasket sealant or poor quality gasket sealant usage will result in this issue.
Incase of 200
Only possible way is coolant pump seals.
Since 200 uses cork packing gaskets in between centre case.

Althought it's dual lip it too fails by 20k kms approx which wasn't a proper solution.
Every 15,000 kms one could replace the entire pump repair kit with impeller which costs 350 hardly.
So let's consider it as a consumable.Whenever we change the coolant we can change the seals and impeller too.
Upon my own interest have suggested KTM engineers with better material too. (VITON material). If one could find the exact sized seals it will last longer as VITON is rated for 120°C up vs EPDM at 100°C.
Since it's a high spinning shaft I would suggest to go with Viton or Silicon seals.
Will post the seal sizes below. If anyone is from Chennai can approach Chennai Seals, Gandhi nagar near Kasi Theater.

Thanks and regards
Manoj Sivaraman..

Re: Pulsar 200 NS Owners Review and Experiences

Aswanth, the CBR does have a weep hole but the R15 doesn't. Hoses last a life time, provided, the maintenance is done right. But, they being rubber, they will crack, puncture and fray due to ambient conditions, dust, heat and a whole lot of other factors, with heat being the prime factor especially external heat. But they as a whole are pretty much robust, so these require replacement whenever necessary, as and when the above red herring is observed on them.

Cleaning radiator fins, is a difficult job to be honest. The best way is to use solvents such as kerosene and water. First use a non pressurized water, from tap, by making sure the radiator is completely wet -- throughly wet. Then use a sprayer, and thoroughly spray the radiator with Kerosene, let it soak for 15 minutes, minimum. Then use use detergent powder, and a soft bristled toothbrush, dab the brush in the powder and start brushing, and do so in a vertical manner, not horizontally. All this takes approx half an hour, and then use water to de-grease the radiator, your radiator will be spanking new. My way of doing things.

Coolant replacement has a strict schedule, 1 year, irrespective of how it looks. Again, my way of doing things.

Hope it helps!

Cheers!
VJ

Re: Pulsar 200 NS Owners Review and Experiences

Thanks for the insight. I was also under the impression that Duke's pump seal is too simple in design. It looks like a fork tube seal. Others like CBR and Kawasaki - the seal itself looks complex and much robust. Also, I believe CBR, Ninjas and R15s have weep holes to warn pump seal failure.

Did you notice any pattern in their failure? Did they all fail at more or less a particular odo reading, say 20-25,000 km. What is the SOP for repair - disassembling the whole engine to replace that seal and the one behind it?

Honda's coolant is priced very reasonable!

VJ, In your CBR/R15/Duke - How often do you:

1. Clean the radiator fins
2. Replace the coolant
3. Replace the hoses

Nice to know, it's a fun machine to ride. Use 50-50 ratio as the ethylene glycol also lubricates the seal.

Try Honda Radiator Liquid as suggested by Manoj and VJ.

Re: Pulsar 200 NS Owners Review and Experiences

Ashwant I own 2013 D200 37K kms on the odo, Friend owns 2015 Gixxer SF.

Had water pump seal failure once in the past, odo reading around 21k kms 4 years back. That's when I switched to "Radicool Heavyduty" (KTM Recommended) concentrate, have always prefered a 35:65 ratio. Radiator Fan almost always kicks-in ~17 minutues into riding/idling, if cooler atmospheric condition then couple mins later (still runs of the open shroudless radiator fan, may be that helps too)

Never been a fan of Inugel, infact it is not even recommended by KTM, alas all svcs stocked only Inugel (untill 3-4 years ago not sure of current scenario), and yes Inugel contains silicates If I'm not wrong. Motocool expert 1L priced ~500/- and Radicool Heavyduty 0.5L priced ~150/- and 20/- for distilled water seemed no brainier to me. I follow a drain interval of 12-15 months (though my odo running is less) performing complete flushing of the system and refill, and as expected Radiator+expansion chamber drinks a close to 960-970ml out of 1L of Coolant.

Many a times I have noticed, svcs fail to fully drain old coolant hence refill around 800-850 ml, I suspect this plus Inugel are may be cause of pump failures in KTMs.

Never knew Radicool had a premix SF-O variant (bonus being it is silicate free vs Radicool Heavyduty with low silicate number) and I have heard all praises of Honda coolant, so was planning on trying either of these for this time depending on the availability post lockdown)

Thanks
Srvn

Re: Pulsar 200 NS Owners Review and Experiences

The guy's absolutely right, though I've used Blue premixed Inugel Expert for a long time, since then I've switched to Motocool Expert for my other bikes, in fact it's been years all my bikes are on MMX. HRL was used specifically for the CBR and I have used it on the R15 as well, performed more or less the same. CBR and R15 have great cooling systems in the first place, especially the CBR gem of an engine and equally fantabulous cooling system, kudos to their engineers. I'm always in awe with such finely done engineering.


One of the primary reasons, my using Motocool is, I happen to purchase a carton box full as it worked out cheaper, premixed, plus, I change my coolant frequently, so having it in stock helps.

The Duke was flushed off the stock coolant and oil well before the first service, in fact I knew how under or overfilled fluids were for the KTM series, and both off the drain, since then it's been running on Motocool, and has held up pretty much to what it has to offer.

Idling more than 15 minutes, the coolant holds the temps extremely well, and the fan comes once and keeps the temperature in check with engine idling.

The Duke's cooling system is good but not great. A bigger radiator with good surface area and a better quality bigger, silent fan, will do wonders to the Duke's cooling efficiency, or like the ADV a curved radiator too helps with the same setup to the Dukes.

Cheers!
VJ

Re: Pulsar 200 NS Owners Review and Experiences

Agreed
Since I was working at KTM SVC previously. I've seen worst cases of scaling and waterpump seal failures.
A D390 owner actually suggested me to use Honda coolant since he owned a CBR as well. The results were good compared to inugel expert which comes as stock and his 390 was a pretty new one. The results are actually noticable. Was seeing a 2°C diffrence.

Re: Pulsar 200 NS Owners Review and Experiences

260 approximately, and it's used specially for my CBR. She performs as she's supposed to and nothing dramatic. Radcool, or Bajaj Kool or any green coolant, especially premixed will do the job well.

Not only Radcool, any coolant which hasn't been periodically replaced and or premixed with dirty brine water will cause deposition. Extending the coolant for years without periodic inspection will cause deposition eventually and cause scaling.

The key is periodic replacement, using the right coolant premix ratio 50:50 or using premixed ones already available, Motul Motocool, Motul Inugel, Honda Radiator Liquid, Engine Ice are some of the premixed examples.

Cheers!
VJ

Re: Pulsar 200 NS Owners Review and Experiences

KTM and NS are prone to coolant pump seal failure.
Mainly because of silicates in coolant. Even Motul inugel expert has traces (read in forums).
But Honda coolant is a gem I would say. Exactly 2°C cooler than inugel expert. Doesn't heatup aggressively.
On average of 5 readings I took, Honda coolant turns the radiator fan off early by 10 seconds.
So equates to better heat transfer.
Also the price of under 300 bucks for a litre is neck on neck with motul inugel expert. Also proven record of not damaging the seals which are EPDM btw. So coolant rubber hoses too stays healthy for a longer period..

Regards
Manoj Sivaraman

Re: Pulsar 200 NS Owners Review and Experiences

What bike do you have now, I thought you had a Gixxer 155. Try to avoid Radicool heavyduty - according to it's MSDS, it has nitrites that will help prevent corrosion of cast iron engine blocks of trucks. For Duke/NS, it spells trouble - it will deposit/form a coating on the internal walls. Also, I think heavyduty is concentrated and not pre-mixed.

Re: Pulsar 200 NS Owners Review and Experiences

Thanks Vijay!

How much does Honda radiator liquid cost? How is the performance?
Have been using Castrol Radicool Heavyduty as per ktm recommendation for past 2 replacement cycles. So far has worked out cheaper with optimum performance.

Thanks
Srvn

Re: Pulsar 200 NS Owners Review and Experiences

This is the one, HONDA RADIATOR LIQUID, and Manoj is right. This is blue colored premixed coolant.

Cheers!
VJ

Re: Pulsar 200 NS Owners Review and Experiences

Do you have a picture of the Honda motorcycle coolant, not able to find the exact one searching online.

Thanks
Srvn