I have done maybe a couple of hundred kilometres with a Jap cruiser.

And...

I have done close to 5000 kms on a HD, some alone, some with other HD riders. The Jap maybe faster. They may be technological MARVELS. But for me, there is something called the HD experience, riding with the riders, the camaraderie etc... even the HD experience in a HD showroom has been different. I have visited some of the biggest Honda and Yamaha showrooms in mainland Europe. I cannot really say that the experience has been even close to the warmth of the HD experience. It is "different" is what I can say.

As for buying one is concerned... that is purely hypothetical... there are a LOT of factors involved, money, etc. Evidently if I am buying something like a HD or an Intruder, I would not be looking at pure performance. For that I have an R1. Something like an HD or an MV or a Ducati is a lifestyle bike. However, do I really belong to that segment? Am I a George Clooney to ride around my lifestyle statement on a HD?

Sure, if you were settled in Europe I maybe would have thought a little about what you are saying. The only people riding with you here in India on the HD is well, a couple of other HDs and a lot of crowd on the road (which also thinks that its a souped up bullet, not that it matters !).

Also if its really about riding with the riders, the camaraderie etc - i would stick with a group (no matter what bike they have) or start riding a bicycle in India ( a lot of riders will be riding besides you!).

Just saw this video:

YouTube - Harley-Davidson - Live By It

Fantastic, it is. However the thing which puts other people off (and at the same make it a cult) is the lack of respect for any other form of two wheeler or men riding them and a heightened narcissist flavour in everything associated with HDs.

Last but not the least, I do not see any of the associated visuals or underlying messages being applicable to people or conditions in India.

But a fantastic ad it is...

Partly agree. But I would still go for a HD if I wanted a lifestyle product (and had the Moolah), or a Ducati!

Superb video!

I am not sure about the narcissist bit but it is for sure that whatever little I have seen of the HD following there, there are quite a few who have a snobbish attitude towards anything Jap. They however respect Ducatisti!

As for India, I really do not care about underlying messages in India etc... did I say that I would still buy a HD if I had the moolah!

Well I am not a expert/fan boy of harleys but I do agree with the articles second part that HD should invest or at least research the idea of a cafe and scramblers as these bike have a very good potential to turn them into these class of machines. In fact world over HDs are turned into cafes, right from HIDE-MO in Japan, Deus Ex Machina in Australia, Rolling Sand Design in US and Mecatwin in France. With these machines being huge hit on the net, all I can wonder why Milwaukee has yet not tapped in to this huge potential market! For a sample just check out what can be done by wrenching an old timer:

This awesome RSD cafe used to be my desktop. I have heard RSD also made one for Brad Pitt!

Another wicked deus design!

A contemporary looking cafe racer from my favorite Walt Siegl.

One bike to rule them all from Hide Motorcycle of Kawasaki Japan! Its actually 2005 Buell lightening XB9S but still the point is valid.

By the way if you haven't then check out the part 2 of this write up at: How to Save Harley-Davidson ? Step 2: Shift Your Product Lineup into New Segments

Very true I agree; that's why Willie Davidson said, buy a Harley & your life will never be the same anymore.

Right, this is what I would say too. A HD is for a leisure riding & not for racing; its for long rides & touring, be it Sportster or CVO.

If HD's are so bad, then why did the Japs copy the models from HD? Why didn't they start innovating something by themselves & try selling it to the market? I'm quite surprised that about HD that overcame an engineering flaw to their advantage by making their unique sound. I don't think any other motorcycle other than Yamaha Road star makes this unique sound of "potato"

Well Sunny, I wouldn't ride HD for someone to notice that I'm riding a HD & you need to appreciate me. To me, riding a HD is way of my life & I don't care even if no one notices the motorcycle. I would feel very bad only if I were rejected in HOG or denied a ride along with HOG members.

True. But, its all in the mind. Its like someone prefering ZMA over R15 or FZ16. To me, I love the Honda Fury for its beautiful looks, but anyday, the exhaust note of HD is more melodious than AR's music.

As far as being denied a ride with HOG members, I assume this is coming from the stuff you have read on the internet about the west. How about feeling bad when a group of HD riders dont want you riding with them because you own some 'JapCrap' 1800CC cruiser which performs way better than a HD and is more reliable too?


HOG? Way of Life? For me, these concepts are non existent in India at the moment. Just by creating a HOG in India you are simply putting another circle around another circle which makes the already elite group, super elite and even more inaccessible. This is not a motorcycling brotherhood or spirit to me. Sure there are very nice HD riders and owners too, but the company policy and methodology oustshines their individual selves.

Nothing against your opinions, but i would wait until you have experienced all the bikes in question. . I have ridden both and I know many people who have tasted both, and I know what 90%+ of them say.

@all:
Strangely, I came across another American iconic brand, something similar to HDs but in the four wheeler space: The Hummer. Read all about its fate here:
Mint ePaper

In the end, one would buy what he wants to, my objective here was that it will best if he makes an informed decision rather create an opinion based on the way a brand is projected and something which will be totally out of place in India. I have nothing against HDs, they are good, but there are other better brands suited for any purpose available, simple but true.

And I am not speaking for people who know what they want, if its a HD it will be a HD, if its an Oakley, it will be an Oakley. Its your money, you know where to invest it best!

I have been fortunate enough to have ridden the Road King, the Sportster and the Night Rod, for close to 5K kms. Enjoyed riding all three, possibly the Road King the most. 1 out of every 9 bikes in ALL of Europe is a Harley Davidson. That makes it 11% market share. That is huge for a company that does not make any 125cc bikes which is the bread and butter of any company. We all know the status of HD motorcycles in North America. They have been selling motorcycles for 105 years! Maybe they do know something about selling motorcycles. People harp about unreliability about HDs, about how backward they are technologically... but when it comes to figures, the statistics the world over (I am talking about developped countries only) say it all.

I have nothing against Japs. That is what I ride. Day in and day out. But I think we are not talking about the same kind of ride here. Given a choice between a Midnight Star and a Road King, it is obvious what I would opt for.

And the Hummer vs HD analogy is a poor one. Does not hold water. At least according to me.

If actually HD is going downhill, which it would not, at least not in the near future, they have to adopt "other" methods. Like have smaller V-twins which will be put up at a smaller price and thus become a bread and butter bike... maybe.

I do wear Oakleys too. And I do not intend going "down" to anything else. However, given the moolah, I would not mind going up to Louis Vuitton or Versace! Along with a Harley! (Or a Ducati!)

I guess then I have to ride at least 4 HDs for at least 6k kilometers to have any say in this matter, ken Da. And will those kilometers in India count?

Going through this thread, I could draw an analogy here. In the western world the rivalry is between HD and other bikes, and here, it's the Bullet vs the rest

I think there is no need to "try" to save Harleys... It should be more about saving the breed of humans who ride harleys.... Dunno whats with HDs... never ridden one, just seen a few around europe.. but I feel, as long as there is a customer, no harm in making the bike... maybe they have to downsize their factories

@Sunny - I have thought every bit of it when HD comes to India. I know cruising at even 60MPH may not be possible & several things such as riding in group, leather jackets, open face helmet, spotless & clean motorcycle, clean smooth straight or curvy roads are not possible. But as I told before, the sound, the sound of HD versus the sound of any other V-Twins is what matters. For that matter, I would even appreciate the Yamaha rockstar as I told before.

You mentioned about the end of Hummer, fine, what about Indian motorcycles? One of the beautiful motorcycles & I love their looks even better than HD's. They too are not fairing well in recent times & were reopened in the recent years. Like I said before, to me, its not the HOG, leather, ride or anything, to me, its the sound. Like wise its everyone's personal choice to go in for HD or non HD.

Now let me ask one fair question, who were the original inventors of V-Twins? The Japs or Americans? Obviously one of the world's oldest motorcycle companies did that & the Japs shamelessly copied it over in the years. If HD is not so attractive or innovative or changing, why is it surviving now? I do agree that Jap motorcycles have better technology, has killer looks & loads of power & eat less gas than HD, but for some a HD is a still HD.

@aargee: vTwin is not a proprietary tech or invention. But if you want to talk about who copied what, then the vTwin engine was introduced in 1903 and the first vTwin in a HD was not until 1909. So there are the facts. Japs didnt copy anything my friend, they just came in a little bit later and showed how to make better things.

In fact the Japs made so good motorcyles that even the Americans had to discard their 'bigger, louder and slower' philosophy.

Its not who did what first, its about who is doing it the best.

If we go by your philosophy then everything that the young generation will do will be shameless copying, because as a matter of a simple principle of nature, you cannot create anything new entirely but simply make new inferences or inventions based on things already created.

So does it mean that the Americans copied the IC engine tech from the Europeans and then the HD copied the vtwins? I guess not...

Right 1903 by Indian & 1906 by HD & both of them are American legends. But the proprietary tech on single pin crank of HD still remains.

Very true & I agree this.

Nope.
Actually what happened was, HD's couldn't sustain when the Japs brought in their smaller 400 & 700CC motorcycles & the good old motorcycle movies portrated bad motorcycles gangs with HD's & to make matters worst, Honda started advertising "You meet happy people on Honda" that not only boosted Hondas but HD's fell prey to AMG where the quality & style of HD's had a severe blow. All these contributed to defame of HD. Now when HD bought back from AMG in 80's they reworked on the engines, started factory customization & host of other things to improve upon HD image. On doing so, they did the discard of "bigger, louder & slower" concept.

To me, they've worked against an engineering flaw & have mastered & overcome the flaw; while the rest of the crowd stick to the laws of physics & produced the outcome & that's the reason Ducati & HD engines fascinate me.

You in the end mean that the ones who make better engines are working against the laws of physics (or are cheating) or do the laws of physics imply that the engines have to be vtwins (or unrefined so to speak)?

Nevermind my friend, in the end it is a bike, and whatever we may choose to ride it will definitely give us the pleasure of feeling the cool wind on the face and being part of the experience.