No Sunny, I'm trying to say that, the point fascinates me. The sound of HD or Ducati inspires me. But again, some may say that, anyone who loves motorcycling will love riding a XL50 or HD & the all the other things hardly matters. Yes, that's the case with me too, anything with 2 or 4 wheels & an engine that runs on gas is what I love to ride/drive. I don't intend to disgrace Japs, infact I love the way Soichiro started & how Toyota's ignorance built up a big rivalry empire against them. To me, the sound of HD appeals, if you give me a chance to ride a 1098 or R1, I would choose 1098, a HD or Indian or Fury or Boulevard or Intruder or Vulcan, I would choose HD. This is what I meant.

Couldn't agree more; To me every ride/drive is new experience, if I haven't learned anything from the ride, then I haven't ridden it well.

You have the last word in any case!

Yes, no harm in making the bike, since they sell more than any other manufacturer!

I am not sure about the eating less gas bit. 5L to a hundred kms is the minimum in city conditions that I have done.

Interesting history there! Thanks.

Even I agree on that bit!

I remember reading this in some forum,where a similair HD topic was going on -

One of the guys said " Hell i dont wanna dress up like a pirate and ride down the streets " LOL. He was referring to some of the HD Lifestyle i guess

Jokes apart, i too believe that it comes down to personal preference as always.

If HD can create something better than V-ROD at Indian price, then i am sure many of us will connect to it Before VROD there was not much in HD that appealed to me, but VROD was a result of 5 long years of R&D and it has its own class and feel and gave a you new look to Harley, i love the steel finish of VROD with that Black letters on tank saying Harley Davidson.

If preferences go, I like the Road King, Fat Boy and the Electra in that order. The Rods do not even figure in my scheme of things as far as Harleys go. For me the Rods are vulgarised Harleys. Something is missing in the Rods. Unless customised of course...

With Harleys, there's a glaringly obvious digression from the 'conventional' definition of motorcycling. When choosing a bike, most of us give weight-age to different elements that comprise a motorcycle in a certain proportion and order of priority. Usually, its about performance, handling, reliability, comfort, brand, looks and sundry other smaller variables that are expendable if we do a 'vital few - trivial many' analysis here. The typical Harley chooser works to a different grid. The 'motorcycle' is less important compared to the perceived 'heritage' that it comes loaded with, the farkles, the attachments (apparel, tattoos, posture etc etc) and an expected slice of the 'brotherhood'. Hear the talk amongst HD users and you'll hear more of 'the manner of traveling on two wheels' than about the technical or skill aspects of riding. True, they do discuss ways to best handle the quirks their bike comes with but rarely is there a motion to sort out those quirks for good. They are 'better patients', but patients nevertheless and they love remaining so. Who would want to see a glass-paned Red Fort!

The shift in the composition and priority of chosen elements almost makes them a tribe in their own right. But then, going by the interaction on most motorcycling forums across the globe, there is always an apparent defensiveness amongst the Harley owners. Now that defensiveness might come forth as 'in your face aggression' that gives a s**t at what you say about the bike or as a royal ignore to the silly comments of the 'non-believers' , its existence does confirm the fact that there's a lot that the owner has to cover-up for that Harley could have rectified in the first place. But ironically, if those 'quirks' are rectified, thats almost akin to making a Harley very un-Harley like. One prime example has just been posted by an extremely experienced rider who owns an R1 and has ridden Harleys enough for his comments to carry appreciable weight. I quote Ken here:

^ A Harley that's been worked upon extensively to remove those 'quirks' and make it a 'motorcycle' in the conventional sense has somehow actually degraded it beneath the original and 'troublesome' models. Don't expect 'reason' to be able to counter that. Emotions are eons older than logic .

That is the problem with H-D. There are still trying to make a modern bike with an out-dated thought process because that is what their customers want. By their own admission, they sell a "lifestyle". They have the where-with-all to make a very good bike, but it is the demand that drives the production. Harley's are called motorcycles only because they have two-wheels and a motor between them. Beyond that similarity, they are more of an 'expression of individuality' than a technological buy. But sooner rather than later, just this 'thought-process' will no longer be able to sustain them.

AHH!! Wow!!
What better words to express!!

Sir, your writing is magical!!

I think with HD or any of the Italian firms, it’s all about the experience.
I am saying this, 2 days after having test ridden a Ducati 1098 S. Until the moment that I was sitting on one and ready to go, I dint believe all the hype and fuss about a DUC.
But its surreal. Its unexplainable. Words can’t express what I exactly went through.
My buddies who also got rides on the DUC, have test ridden Harleys. And they were very impressed with them. I think you can’t pass a judgment until you actually experience one.
Sure it’s not a brand that appeals to everyone, maybe the Enfield fanatics would love the idea of a HD. And technologically speaking, HD is probably a bit ahead of the Enfield’s..maybe not, but people still ride them.
There is a market for loud thumping V-twins and hence these brands exist.

About HD riders being self absorbed and brash, I think that that is a stereotype and we tend to generalize. I have experienced both kinds of HD riders.
On my way to work every day, I come across these two riders, both on HDs. One has no gear whatsoever and has a grim face and never acknowledges when waved at in respect…while the other’s face lights up in acknowledgement. He is completely geared up
Point being, there are sport bike riders who are equally brash, but we don’t tend to generalize sbk riders as being total nut cases.

I agree with Ken_cool as to what I would prefer when it comes to choosing between a Jap cruiser and an HD, fully being aware of the pros of the Japs. You simply will never get the same level of experience with a JAP cruiser.
Same goes with sport bikes…..the Japs outperform the Italian sports bikes, but the experience with the Italian bikes is surreal and something that simply cannot be replicated. Experience it to believe it.
It’s like Jeremy Clarkson’s (Top Gear) views on Alfa Romeos……super unreliable….but an un matched experience to drive them.

As for HD surviving, I think they will, just like any other motorcycle manufacturer, the economy has hit them hard but they will come out of it.

OF Sir, I'm penning down my thoughts will all due respects
Its no way an outdated thought process. Agreed that they take lot of time to come up with a new engine & the each year the new model looks no different from the previous years, in a nut shell, each new model makes hardly of any difference. But they do care, they do a real care of their customers. They make motorcycles & sell them to change the life style of their customers.

I'm very confident HD will survive. They've seen the 2 great depression, and 2 world wars. If they can survive against the laws of physics, then they can survive in business too

Before bashing HD's, lets stop & think for a while about our good old 50 year old, "Made in Thiruvotriyur" brand, none other than Royal Enfield. Aren't they doing the same? IMHO, they too are following almost the same foot prints of HD except that they're not listening to customers. No company has the largest factory-sponsored motorcycle club other than HD. I don't mean this as customer care, but if HD didn't listen to customers, they would've not even started factory customization, which I don't think any manufacturer offers till date.

Correction - Indian was in 1901 while HD was in 1903

aargee: there's nothing even close to 'HD bashing' in my post. Its an attempt at an informed analysis of a certain product in a certain situation. Harley sells its product as a mix of heritage and modernity, straddling time and technology, being loyal to neither and so comes packaged with the pros and cons of this time stretch. Nothing wrong with it and it also makes business sense as long as people are willing to buy it.

This amalgam of 'heritage and modernity' delivers a product that titillates the senses in a manner thats quite different from the slick efficiency of a 'modernity faithful' product. It has short-comings and so have people. So, this presence of faults makes it quite akin to its user in character...almost human. That's the lure of the quirks. Perfection is beautiful but also intimidating. And somehow 'not' human.

Its all nice n good thus. But discussions like one going on here begin when the 'quirky humanness' or the 'experience' are projected as being superordinate to technological performance parameters. One cannot live solely on love...food and shelter are equally if not more important. Its the same scenario with the Bullet here. Faults or shortcomings are 'character' and strengths are of course, strengths. Conclusion: there's nary a bike better than a Bullet . Its not just another motorcycle... because it has 'character'! Does your bike have it?

Carlitos: I wouldn't put the HD's and Ducati's in the same basket...even if the basket is labeled 'experience'. The Italians stand next just to the Irish and Spanish when it comes to a fiery temper .

I somehow find it difficult to believe that Harley Davidson is totally antediluvian in nature and that is a really horrible bike.

There must be something in that bike. It can't be JUST love that they are selling the highest number of motorcycles in ALL developped countries on the planet!

I find the concept of Harley's and RE's extremely pointless, they were great and modern bikes in the 50's, but then what happened for the next 50 years, they decided to remain the same ? They take pride in being heavy bulky and unreliable ?(only RE's havnt ridden a harley yet)

IMHO, the concept is a waste and works with only old people who like the old stuff, people like me or most of the younger generation would prefer something tech-packed and ahead of its times. It is time they stop making bikes and sit home with the money they have or do something more productive. But then to each his own..

American's have an age old adage "If it ain't broke don't fix it" or for the gentleman "leave well enough alone" - This outlook or rather chosen philosophy is what HD works on.

A prime example involves another company (which has been haplessly dragged into this conversation without any similarities to the context) - Ducati. Drilling down to more specifics, its the Ducati 999 which was a design and cult disaster. Ducati tries to mess up with the fantastic front styling of the 996 series. Even MVAgusta and Suzuki had to muster up enough courage to make changes to their flagship models - the F4 and the Hayabusa respectively, but in this process they did one very important thing - refined their engines, added more tech which enhanced the riding experience and most of made their bikes reliable. And did they lose customers - I guess not!

In short I feel HD is too scared to change any of its philosophies - both laterelly across its model line up and vertically across its organization and motto. Fair enough, they have been long enough in the business to know, but this brings me to the question I raised in my first post, the main topic of this thread - are they selling motorcycles the way they used to? - the following article will answer it more then anything, and in the end its the numbers which matter, Ken, thats the reason why I cited the demise of the Hummer example, something which you very conveniently tagged as an irrelevant analogy.

So here goes: Harley-Davidson 1Q profit skids 71 percent | detnews.com | The Detroit News
You might note the date and the source of the news as well. I hope they are qualified enough for you to know what they are writing, though in all probability the author might have ridden Harleys less than 4,000 kms

I hope this country of a billion people will help them offset this dramatic drop in sales too!

Antediluvian as in archaic? or antiquated? And a 'really horrible bike'? I guess what I've written can hardly be construed thus. There's a logic and a definite charisma in the marque that pulls people to it. And of course the bike does work most of the time. I quote myself here:
The reactions, and negative ones at that, stem from the attempts at placing products like the HD bikes on top of the pyramid.

There's an air of sweeping generalization in this statement that it seems intended more towards subduing further debate than attesting to the efficacy of facts. But anyway, as the coffee-toffee ad from the good 'ol days says...the argument continues .

For 'selling in numbers' to be a contention in justifying a product's superiority, the data needs to be seen not just quantitatively but also qualitatively. It is the clustering under the bell-curve that reveals more than those isolated dots. These bikes are not cheap and the buyer profile for HD's is predominantly 40+ age-wise. Thats when the buyer has amassed enough money to spend on one or earns enough to be able to buy it. With such a buyer profile, performance does not take precedence over style and the element of nostalgia. He uses the bike sparingly and relatively 'gently' compared to a youngster on a litre-class sbk. So the quirks add 'character' and don't really bother him as they don't get serious enough to be a 'reliability' issue. And of course, no one can fault the Harley's on style . They probably have more than Da Vinci's Madonna, Marilyn Monroe, Yul Brynner and Sean Connery put together. But look up on any of the forums that discuss serious touring/long-distance riding and their opinions about the HD are not really flattering.

Then again, the 'nostalgia' strategy has worked for HD. Though of late, its magic effect seems to be petering off. The mix n match of old and new will need to be more and more skewed towards the 'new' to keep that blood flowing. Of course, all said and done, all this is conjecture..ain't it.

PS: Bajaj and HH together produce and sell more bikes globally than any other....

@ken: Another interesting fact has come to light. HD at some point of time actually had bought MvAgusta (!) in 2008 and then sells it in 2009 (!).

Buy: H-D announces purchase of MV Agusta

Sell: Harley Davidson Hires Firm to Sell MV Agusta

I wonder what was going in their minds when they thought of buying a brand totally opposite to the stereotypical HD and then deciding to sell it, all within the span of a year - the only answer I can think of is what we are discussing in this thread - parallel image and of course the need for money (as a quick fix).

I would like you to go through the following articles without subliminally erasing the word "Harley Davidson" and replacing with any brand - be it Japanese, Italian , Korean or even apna HH! :

When good icons go bad: Why Harley will struggle in the future Moonrider Redux

and

How the Harley blew it: 10 critical mistakes that will affect it both now and in the next boom cycle Moonrider Redux

Please note that both the articles are also relatively new.


Oh, and then they must be better than Harleys, Ducatis of course!