No Sir, I didn't mean that you bashed, your post was conveying almost neutral & went straight into my brains that you're providing a unbiased view of what HD's view on customers. I got it.

Right. Totally agree. To me, as OF sir said, the culture or the life style is what they're trying to sell. It sells well with people who are willing to buy.

Really??? I didn't know that; I was under the impression that Japs/Italians dominated.

To understand this, you've to read the article by Satya on Design of Motorcycle, it gives you the answers in nutshell as how the design changed & to an extend you can find out the answers.

No comments as HD has found the average age of their motorcycle buyers to be decreasing from 46ish to 36ish.

I got what you're trying to say after reading your post completely. Agreed that they don't change their engines/models often, the Evo is still in production since 83/84 & has undergone lots of changes in form of the capacity, reliability & technology. Just ask about a Pulsar owner, then he would say how they suffer in terms of finding parts of motorcycle that he bought 4-5 years ago. I know this is not a relevant example, but the point is, why should they keep updating the models every year to give it better & better? Why not once in 3 years or 5 years? How do I feel when I buy a HD this year & next year it comes up with 6 gears & to the next year comes up from 883 to 990 CC engine. I would start hating it or rather wait for them to release a bigger better engine.

May be HD is scared, but remember, they're selling a lifestyle along with a motorcycle while the rest of the mob is simply selling a motorcycle & to make their revenue.

Pls don't bring up numbers, we all know the fate of 3 good old American car companies GM/Ford & Chrysler & they're still surviving & they'll continue to survive. So all these losses are temporary phenomenon. Worldwide motorcycle sales went down & so did HD's in USA. Check out this link under the title "U.S. Motorcycle Sales 2009 and Totals for 1992 - 2009".

Haha, Sunny ^^^ sounds like a HD hater

Here's a link to show you that HD's committment & how far they're willing to change and they will survive.

I hated Harley Davidsons till 2008. And then I rode a few on a few roads. And my stance on HDs have changed since. I definitely do not hate them anymore. On the contrary... I have said it enough. Just a question of moolah.

You think you are gonna stay young forever?

Harleys do not make 125cc Platinas. I am sure we understand that we are not talking about the same segment.

Numbers are the most important thing in any equation. Perhaps you forgot to have a look at what happened to MVA and Buell in my post. No company is making motorcycles for charity. Those hoping that a brand name would do the trick will meet the fate of Buell.


I am afraid my friend but you go too much on sounds (of the literal kinds too ). If I would have hated a HD i would have said so clearly. What I hate is their brand positioning and the how they ride. My favourite Harley is vRod (in terms of looks and performance).

Also many people who are in love with HDs here forget that the Harley experience is made up of all those things which you see in the pictures from the west (those which fascinate you) - good roads, blue skies, tough look, co buddies riding along with you in leathers, nothing to care about.

That experience,my friend, is not to be had in India. I am not even going to bring in the cost, service and spares into the equation.


It would be a lot better if you just say that 'we just like HDs even if I havent ridden one'.

P.S: Surprisingly, the 71% drop in sales and other links have been very conveniently overlooked.

I also may add that I have had the options of riding a Harley in most of the foreign trips that I have done, but I have very consciously chosen to go ahead with a Jap company (unfortunately couldnt get a Ducati even now). In retrospect I think I have made the right decisions - I certainly do not fancy hurling the behemoths around 10,000 corners, worrying about its weight and finding it quiet overwhelming to do certain things like stop, park get down and take photos on gravel etc. And certainly not in India.

I would seriously recommend trying out all the bikes first and then vehemently vouching for something.

The numbers define the statement here...any reference to the 'segment' is a tangent that heads to a different story. Being sold in large numbers doesn't necessarily make them good. Someone who buys a Platina will choose it with the same conviction as the one who buys a HD. The reasons, money, use and mindset will differ but the 'conviction' will not.Fitness for use as Juran defines quality. The proclivity of numbers doesn't even predominate in a school boy's report card - his marks are NOT a direct reflection of his IQ. Agreed that HD must be doing something good to be selling in such large numbers...but that doesn't mean they are doing it all good.

Running and ducking.....

Ya are rite we don't stay young for ever... but my question is why HD is concentrating on buyers of 40+ age... they may not be(don't know whether they do intentionally) but their designs/models are telling like that... As @AnuragAshok sir said is it worth enough in spending that much money on HD if we can get a Jap bike of the same specs/similar(considering the case of an Suzuki Intruder)? Is there anything more exciting in HD bikes other than their "TRUELY AMERICAN" brand/gimmick when considering the Japs or others?
I am not here to downsize the HD picture which is a lifestyle bike for many, coz i have lots of unsolved queries about them...
@Ken da if you can throw some light on this from a layman's point of view...

Well, I intended to say that the statement meant like a HD hater


+100. Couldn't agree more. Let me tell you what I underwent.

During my days at college, sometimes during mid 90's, I used to fancy the pics of HD & wish to ride them someday. When I was in US a decade later I was fascinated by them & once I'd an opportunity to witness a bikers get together at Minneapolis. Out of all the motorcycles, you name it you have it kinda crowd, (I even saw a RE) only one company attracted me & that was none other than HD for its sheer style & beauty. Ofcourse the choppers were even better. So that was the first real meet.

Back in India, as you said, the thought of riding in India was like & was always under the impression NO superbikes will be a blessing in this country until I saw someone's tagline here in XBHP saying "I don't let my motorcycle interfere with my motorcycling". I don't know what was the intention behind that tagline, but I got a different meaning. To me its the ride, the sound, the air, the thrill, the move & what not? May be I get it in a different motorcycle too, yes, I tried the C5, but somehow it wasn't appealing to me. Call me nuts, I even thought about talking to Aniket about his V-Twin RE Musket, but somehow, mind refuses.

Then I'd this debate of why an under powered vehicle when there're so many Jap motorcycles costing less & over powered than HD? Out of curiosity I started reading about HD's & their engines & wanted to know if they're over hyped & then came the jargons on their design, the "potato" sound, their recruitment & then came to know, they sell a lifestyle & not just a motorcycle. If their motorcycles aren't successful ones, then why do people make so much customization? RE, Triumph or any other Jap motorcycle company doesn't care for their customers even after 50 years other than regular service. That's all about the life style; its clear that HD target people who've deep pockets & if they don't have, then the life style is not for them. Its simple, a car is still unaffordable (buying & running cost included) for people still in middle class, while there're several Audi's & Porsche's & even Lambo's running in this country. But the fact is Pulsar or HD there's a potential in this country & HD is exploring this potential to sell their culture.

Right. When the entire world is bleeding on sales number on motorcycles, HD's 71% fall is quite nominal as they're not the top motorcycle manufacturers or sellers in the world. Their drop in sales attributes along with the overall sales.

True. When the HD gets dirty due to pollution & dust in this country, the true colors of the paint & chrome may show up.

You're very right on this part & unless one has a few Lakhs & doesn't know what to do; but then, HD in India wants only such customers isn't it?

on a lighter note

YouTube - Cartman tells what a Harley rider really is....

incase mods find this inappropriate please move or delete.

^^Nice

Love 'em or Hate 'em, But You Definitely Can't Ignore Them.

Profit surprise sparks rally in Harley-Davidson - MarketWatch

Apparently they made some money this quarter.

i have ridden a r6 and how does it differ from these pocket rockets ? will the HD ride like a bullet ?

See the way HD Sportster has been changing with time since its inception here

Boy o Boy, this thread is so lively, how come I missed it ! It seems I've been long gone. But I am back and cannot resist adding my POV - once again!

Before I start, just want to mention that as there are countless intellectuals on this thread who are much superior and sublime in terms of ability to write with a vast vocabulary to express their feelings than I, and there are also others who have much more technical knowledge on things bikes than I can ever expect to have, so I will focus on the more basic down to earth but equally important issues here.

Brotherhood, HOG et al: I've done a lot of group riding in a short span of time and there are countless groups within xbhp "brotherhood" who do it regularly for long distances multiple times a year, albeit, on 100, 125, 200 cc bikes and I do not think that the feeling of brotherhood, wind in the face, dhabha breaks is any less than a few HOG's riding their Harley's. (While riding with the HOG's I would still recommend following this particular, peculiarly Indian cult, than the MacD's or KFC's or other diners, unless of-course, being a HOG also means going only to the cult American Fast Food Joints)

- Sound: Considering money is of no concern to the 40+++ buyers - I would consider buying a bike just for the sound without knowing anything else about the bike, but I would consider myself whopping mad if I buy it only for the sound knowing that everything else is wrong (oh, before having to duck brick bats coming my way, a correction - maybe not everything else but lets say quite a few of em (I did say in my earlier post that I found the gears in the NightRod to be quite good)). As I have said, I rode enough of the Harley's of different variety (even though under the bonnet, they are all the same, give or take a few here and there) to tell you that potato-potato-potato-potato-potato-potato-potato-potato-potato-potato after a while gets to your head and is more noise than music to one's ear. (Not kidding)

Sound continued: If sound is the only thing that interests you, buy a table fan for the wind in the face and a tape recorder or CD player and keep playing the sound - You will save a lot of money.

Age Group: Being 40+, Indian and not as indoctrinated as folks in the countless other countries where these bikes are sold, having made money the hard way in most cases, I do not think anyone in that bracket is a fool. Buying such a bike is also an investment and if they use their head and compare the investment with other superior options, I am sure most will drop the idea.

Hummer v/s HD - Lets go closer home forgetting the Hummer v/s HD analogy for a short time. HM's Ambassador is a very good example of old, indian and dominant at one point of time and now rotting away producer of autos. They are still in production but all folks in their 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's 70's .... do not buy it. They go for snazzier better vehicles available in the market and even the poor government babu who is forced to ride it would love to get rid of it if he can. (PS: Amby's are still unreliable, crude and difficult to maneuver like the Harley's, cheap (thus affordable by Indians) unlike the harley's)

Now, Some will still buy a HD. Some of those will buy it because they believe in the sound, wind in the hair, and the HOG experience and others will buy it because they are too obstinate to not buy it. They will be happy for what they have spent not knowing any better and having spent their hard earned money, I have no quarrel with them, they are entitled to enjoy what they will buy. (HD will need to ensure prompt roadside service for them).

@Manav- Dont go near a Roadster or Sportster 1200. I rode it for a week (swapped my Intruder with it from someone I know who owned it) and it was a disaster. News, the guy who lent it to me was riding my intruder while I was struggling with his sportster and when I returned it, within a week, he sold his and is buying an Intruder. (PS: The bike had only 1200 miles on its ODO and was imported fully duty paid not so long ago from the US)

I'm very happy that HD is coming to India finally, its a fabulous time for all those who were waiting to buy one "official import". Its most definitely a lifestyle product & a very distinct style statement. Sure it has some fantastic bikes in its line-up. I love Fatboy, since the day I saw Arnold riding it in T2.

I am a big HD fan and I love the things they do in their territory. Though I believe this "lifestyle" is nothing more than a gimmick in India & it doesn't cross-over very well here from US of A!

IMO, Harley's are very American in their purpose. Targeted to very tight segment of consumer, thats a consumer which is ready to ignore all the pains of owning a Harley in favour of the things that HD advertises it for... cruising on freeways, riding on smooth roads, being part of the HOG community & the brotherhood.. and the biggest of all is it being an original AMERICAN bike.

.. This is where the bubble bursts! we can't relate to all these things here. There are no freeways, most of the toll roads have no entry for bikes, highways are getting better now but the weather & traffic doesn't change for the new imports. The lifestyle and the HOG community doesn't exist here and probably never will and we are not American patriots to relate to the "American by birth. Rebel by choice" feeling of Pride either....!!

So what we will get from HD here is America's biggest motorcycling icon, which doesn't mean anything to us Indian more than it being another big brand bringing imported bike into India. Unless you love H-D and it's the only thing made for you, which probably is the one of most important factor that will determine its sales in India.

Now, considering the cost & our hard earned money on stake, its very logical and fare for us to compare a Harley with the current imports from Japan and the Italian Ducati. And it makes a lot of sense to give importance to factors like refinement, ease of handling, maintenance, reliability, fun & practicality. I won't say anything about service and support because even the Japs are not doing very well in India.

I do wish Harley-Davidson will do well in India & I do wish to own one too someday but my Bike shopping list has HD listed a bit lower down the order!!

@Anurag: from someone who has ridden along Harleys in US and one in India and for someone who actually owns a Jap cruiser - your comparision seems to be based on experience rather than speculation, exactly what we need.

@nitin: sweet and succinct, coming from a Harley fan you said the bitter truth which I had been trying to explain.

I too hope HD does well in India, but as far as its marketing goes right now, it’s focusing on a very selective audience, youth being completely ignored.

The Curious Case of Indian Tri Color Harley : What they should have done

Not only this they seemed to be doing a few things by consulting a few people who gave them the advice of actually getting a HD painted in the Indian tricolors and expecting people in India to buy them in a fit of newfound patriotism. News: This is not America, people are not blunt and brash and most important majority them don’t care a hoot if you include the Indian colours on its flag in any product and try to pass it off as 'Indian'. If this was the case and the winning formula then we would have seen, in the least, a Splendour in those colors. Although I want to feel proud of what HD has done with the tricolours, I can see through and note that it’s to get PR and increase sales and not because of creating an analogy the classic American patriotism which exists and drives the sales in the US. Or even the Ducati 1098 Tricolore which sports the Italian colors.
Being a graphics person, a photographer and in creative media I did not like the tricolor HD even one bit. Am I alone? Just to give you how many people agree with me in the HD playground (US) and to give you an idea of their patriotism or high headedness , just read this: Harley Davidson Special Edition Fat Boy Unveiled in Auto Expo India 2010 - Harley Davidson Forums
A couple of Indians seem to be accompanying their replies and praying that the Americans stop criticizing what HD has done with the bike. Note that the conversation also take a dangerous turn towards being racial too.
Some excerpts:

Now read this, the poor Indian guy tries to defend the tricolor paint job and writes:

And this is what he gets in a reply from an American HD owner and fan:
Bottomline: You want HDs to be successful in India? Get an attitude first, just money and paying the cash over a HD over the counter with eyes closed wont do!

Lets look at little more, I was enjoying it:

And this actually nails why HD will not get numbers here:

And this how a typical HD owner thinks and behave (i wont generalize this, but I have experienced it a few places abroad and on some forums). Just see the way he is speaking to another Indian who is haplessly trying to defend India HD etc:

The most irritating thing is when the Indian guy who started the topic keeps praying that someone posts a line of positive comment and then replies with utmost sincerity which almost seems obligatory to the original poster. The poor guy has no idea how to defend India or his views and is relying on other’s generous comments. I wonder who is he?

[quoteThanks for sharing your noble thoughts with us.

Even I was not aware that its an American Forum.

I would not have posted that pic if I knew that this discussion would reach such a stage.[/quote]

@sunny

sir,

i have been reading your articles and seeing your art . for a very long time.... and really admire your work

it really made me sad after reading the last post esp. those racial comments..

i always thought a relationship between a bike and his owner. didnt see cast colour or creed ....i was very suprised... after seeing the above.....

i myself have stayed in texas for more than 6months.... home of many harley owners....

i met a group of harley owners in a cafe where i used to go to have breakfast they were quite suprised of me being a bike fan

i never got a feeling like this..... infact they were quite .... nice and.,,great to talk too... one of them even gave me a ride bak. home.......

irrespective of me being a turbaned sardar. and just 1 year after 9/11 i never felt the wrong vibes from them....(only once from old lady sittin in the aircraft along with me she used to almost jump out of her seat everytime i used to move or get somethin from my back pack lol it was really funny god bless her though !! )

they truly were harley riders..... loved their bikes like crazy.....

harley really needs to change this prespective of being a american specific bike and move towards becomin a global. bike.....

the americans should be proud of this company but at same time the company should work towards making their country people realize that .... bikes and bikers are not country specific... its a religion.... its a cult ..... which doesnt see any boundries....

i really hope it happens.....

as for keeping the cost down..... its our fault with 110% tax .... and no direct investment allowed + anothe 1000 rules + corrupt officials.... how can we expect..... anythin... like a cheap 1000cc + bikes....

look what happend with the tatas intially when they wanted to start the nano factory

its a shame!!! that we still elect these kind of politicians


one thing about u.s is this country is well sheilded, information is really filtered ....but it is a great country because it functions without roadblocks.....their is a lot of tolerance as compared to places in the gulf....

+ a bike heaven

but no place like india....a country which is totally unshakable......irrespective what happens... WE keep movin

regards...