Absolutely, I concur, there is no substitute for riding for the experience and pleasure.

Thanks for the help Ken. I am trying to say that one needs to have the right attitude and a product to back it up.

It did go un-noticed for a while but I found it again.

I would say that I believe that HD's are no VFM, not necessarily underpowered but do lack overall finesse. I do concede that they may appeal in looks and the image associated with it to its buyers whoever they are.

I would love to analyze their sales figures when they are published.

I'm glad to hear this

Finesse??? Underpowered, I would agree with you. But I'm really failing to understand this point. What is lacking in overall fit & finish? Is it the chrome? 3 coats paint? Or do you mean the vibrations?

I'm sure you would've watched this, but, still, I'm providing showing this to you, incase you haven't watched. Take some time leisure to watch that talks on the build quality of HD.

Well, they may not be hotsellers like the takers on Ninja 250R for their high price, but they're bound to make a decent sales figure.

Well Sunny sir, I take it as attention grabber. Thanks for agreeing on this

What does Indian conditions mean? Are you referring to KLa & Rohtangs? Definetly agree, nobody would like to do that on any SBK. To me, for that matter to anyone, riding a HD means, riding leisure, ride in comfort, no offroading, for that matter that's the same case & purpose behind buying any VFR/Bandit/CBR/VMax or any SBK sold in India isn't it? Could you elaborate if I failed to understand anything on "Indian conditions".

After a point of time I kinda figured out what you were trying to say. You have nothing against the motorcycle per se, but their attitude.

I do agree that they lack the refinement of the Japs! But the only other cruiser bikes that I have ridden are the Intruder and the Midnight Star. Midnight Star was a nightmare. I liked the Intruder, but I find the Night Rod easier to ride.

However, nothing even comes close to the RoadKing. Simply terrific! Wish I had the Roadking to ride around.

You would be surprised at the international figures!

I have much less experience with bikes than you, but whatever my experience counts for in this segment with the Midnight Star, Intruder on one hand and Sportster, NightRod & Electra Glide on the other (not the Roadking though), I just cannot understand why anyone would pay this money to buy these bikes.

If my memory serves me right, we did the night rod together and I rode it all day. I was relieved to switch back to the Intruder.

- I am sure HD will give you one for test. Lets do it together and form an opinion. I would not want to say anything about a bike without actually trying it. It is a big bike, does it not have the same engine as the Electra Glide?
- I was referring to Indian Sales figures.

I remember that conversation very clearly. There could be one very important reason behind it. You are a bigger guy than me.

I would be glad to test one. I am not sure if they would give ME one. Sunny is more likely a candidate for these things.

Indian sales would not be anything to write home about I reckon!

I would like to give a hands on experience explaination regarding this. You are hereby invited to the next India ride with me

Time and again I am noticing that you are referring back to the International charisma this bike holds only to be reminded that we are all are taking about India as the context. I dont need to tell both of us that many equations change in India.

I am sure you have noticed that Superbike sales in India have not exactly burned the charts. 100 bikes from Yam, 120 bikes from Honda etc! (Or thereabouts!) HD will not be any different. That is the point I am trying to make. And yes, I do care about international sales. It gives us a perspective of where we stand, economically, the position of biking maturity and a lot of things.

Ps; However I would not be surprised if HD sold more than anybody else. (In India too!)

I cannot comment on the product as I have not had a chance to ride on yet. But i have heard pretty consistent stories of disappointment by fellow riders who have tried their hand on a HD.

But if I talk about marketing a 'cult' I dont really see anything wrong with the way HD is going.
I believe:
"A cult never dies on its own. A change in positioning KILLS it!!"
Can you imagine another image of CHE GUEVARA in which he is probably clean shaven so he appeals to a larger audience. Hilarious isnt it!!

I just read the article and have a few points to make of my own :
- No cult respects the competition. They are a cult because they are BLINDLY in love with an offering.
- A cult has to have a very specific positioning to survive if it broadens it, or like the author says start talking to a larger spectrum of users IT WILL DIE! Because the members of the CULT will no longer believe in it.
- As far as India is concerned I feel HD will do just fine. Its not going to be about the riding experience after all. That is a very small part of the HD brand promise IT always talks about WE rather than ME! Which is what makes it an experience that can be shared. And any experience that can be shared is more valued than one that cannot be.
- Let me elaborate on the last point. India is at a stage where IMAGE is more important than TASTE. And they will exploit that mindset without fail. And HD is all about IMAGE.
- The author says dissociate with the techincal 'v-twin' image and talk experience. I would say that would be the end of HD. They OWN the v-twin space they have spent the last century building it they cannot disown it.

- BUT all said i do feel I need to get out and test drive a HD just to see how can a company envied by so many large brands build a product that is not the BEST.

HD is in India for the long run. I would say its too soon to make judgements.

So we gotta wait and watch. wait and watch.

Another thing that I missed out!

No matter who or wherever we are!

THERE IS A BADBOY IN ALL OF US!!
And thats the HD promise!

Here you say that "Its not going to be about the riding experience"..
On this thread, the only positive that keeps coming up so far in favor of HD is "riding experience".
- Having ridden them and others, I dont understand what riding experience can be had out of the HD that cannot be had out of another bike of similar class. Here I concur with you.

People keep telling me that what I think are it's weaknesses are actually its strength (in a way) and this is something I am skeptical about, purely in the light of my own experience and logic and because contradictions by their very nature cannot exist.

- There will always be people who will only buy a HD as there will be people who will only buy another brand's bike.. whatever the reason, but, knowing Indians and esp. chaps from the target group, I know that majority will analyze everything and come to the same conclusion that I and quite a few others did/are doing.

- HD is a cult in the US and barring exceptions (expats), most here have only heard about it and hearing about it does not mean identifying with it. A cult and fan following in one place on the planet does not automatically translate into the same result elsewhere. If that were the reason, SRK/Amir Khan would be as big a star in US as in India and vice-versa, Tom Cruise would be as big a star in India as in the US. If this is far fetched, RE is a cult amongst die-hard RE fans in India.. It is marketed in the US and Europe, why is it not so successful there? A few people buy it there but that's about it.

hey friends, HD is too costly and jap are not in the list. but still we need to ride the bike that make us forget the world for few minutes. that is why we get on the RE and take a ride. RE ride is awsome but we need more like HD, somthing wild between our legs, don't we ?
answer to all above questions is an Indian cruiser bike with v-twin engine. and i m working on the project to build a V twin engine in India. well the project is at initial stage and lot distance to ahead. for that we need ppl who can work and help us to follow our dreams. who ever is interested to build, buy, suggestions and help directly or indirectly in our project u r most well come. for the purpose i m running a thread in X-bhp. those how r know about bike desing and cad/cam desing and casting and forging of metal plz post u r comment at the thread "v twin 850". u r views and help only can make this happend. thanx all.

I feel its just started and the one thing that works in favor of a HD which currently is a far fetched dream in India is 'Customization'. There is no other stock bike that is customized more to give it a personalized character than a HD. That I feel is what makes it special and the OWNER gets involved in creating a riding experience for himself. So I will take your word on the stock Harleys but would it be the same for a MOD? I dont know?


I would beg to differ here cos I dont feel that either SRK/Amir/Tom are cult brands. If you refer to the meaning of a cult on WiKi "The word cult pejoratively refers to a group whose beliefs or practices are reasonably considered strange. The word originally denoted a system of ritual practices. The word implies a group which is a minority in society."
Going by that by no means was HD/RE mass brands and they will never be. That is why I raised a point against massifying the HD positioning as proposed by the author cos I dont feel they are after the numbers.

Well, atleast stock harley issue is settled.

For MODS, think again and check your premises. What mods are possible? Just a couple of days ago, ( http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/news/138...tml#post468791) a member called FATBOY was complaining that when he asked about the availability of a particular color in the bike at harley's distributor here, he was sarcastically told to come again next year !!! If he cannot even choose the color, what possible MOD can he hope for.

Hope this will help settle the MODS issue.


There is another theory... called theory of relativity which says that everything is relative depending upon where you are looking from and ofcourse, who doesnt know that one man's trash is another man's treasure.

You can differ but this is not yet settled!!

While the bad boy image that led to harley riders being referred as a cult in America was mostly because that was the only bike available in those days in the states!! Closer home, guys riding anything from a pulsar to bullet indulge in stunting and the media which generally builds such perceptions identified them as "a group whose beliefs or (ritual) practices are reasonably strange"!! They dont have to be on a harley to be defined as a cult but if all of them were for some reason riding a bullet, the label would have been equally stuck to the Bullet.

Now, closer home, if we believe in the fact that when in Rome do as the Romans do, it could be interpreted as dont expect the Romans to change their behavior just because you landed up in Rome! The Indians are used to asking - kitna deti hai and so they will!

So, if an Indian, no matter how much money he has and even if he has heard about the iconic status of HD, would go out looking out to buy the bike, he will want to compare it with other options because it does not take too long to figure out what the HD's lack and that they are clearly not VFM.


Lastly...

HD is an American company and is not making any money for obvious reasons. Would you go tell the american investors that the company is not going to go after numbers (More bikes sold = more revenue generated) and the cult + bad boy image + arrogance + mods will be enough to give him a good return on investment. Forget the investors, Harley had to pick up shit load of money from Warren Buffet debt at an annual interest rate of 15%. That kind of interest rates in a low interest rate economy such as the US speaks something about their need to sell and massify or .... perish (?)! Even in India corporates do not pay such interest rates.

Well the MODS I was indicating to were the ones that independent Customs Companies like American Chopper and Cyril Huze undertake. Once that begins a Harley Would have a different meaning.

I am not defending or making a judgement for or against HD. I am just saying its not even been a month that they have opened their first showroom. But they are in for the long run. Its not the product or the marketing like Ducati has just sold 6 bikes in the last 8 months they have been in Delhi. The product is great the brand is iconic but then why. Like brands consumers and markets need time to mature and it is an evolutionary process.

So we just gotta wait and watch. I would give it at-least a couple of years before making a judgement. Till then everyone has the right to accept or reject HD. Though as a marketer I believe anything can turn around you just have to find the right way for the right place. And I hope they guys who have been able to make HD a globally recognised brand have some ways out of this.