Engine Oils

[madhav krishna]

I only read what you write.. I am not God.

I never said so.

You say you lost 100-200ml and topped up and felt better.. I read just this.

Well i said nearly 100-200ml. Did i said it was exactly that amount.

shv18 on the FZ thread used 30 ml top up with Motul 300V FS in 4000 km on an FZ. I hardly lost any oil in my 4000 km on Shell advance Ultra (FS)!! You say you lost xyz amount (which you didnt measure) on 1400 kms on Motul 5100 which is SS and you felt better.. It must be atleast 100 ml to get that feeling!! It still is too high. Get your bike checked. And if its just 30-40 ml.. get yourself checked!! Just pouring 30-40 ml gives you a High!

;-)

Dont feel offended but I think you should do your homework before making such statements. Just go back in this very same thread & you will find a lot other cases. As a matter of fact even my bike dint need any top up with earlier oils until this one.

FYI the oil top up depends on the engine & sometimes oil used too. FZ's & fazers run a lot cooler than say pulsars & for the matter my bike is a joelled gladiator which is generating a lot more heat than a stock gladiator & stock fz. Hence the higher grade of XXW50 compared to stock XXW40. I have seen a lot of senior members complaining about the oil level dipping issue with the ester range of motul in relatively short periods. If you call all of them too as high then all i can say for you is "good luck".

I have seen a lot of pulsars which dried up more than 200ml of oil. Its not the fact that they are having any issue with the engine but its fact that they generate way too much of heat. You can check the same if you doubt me.

The way i rip my engine, am not surprised with the amount of oil used for top up. And please try to understand that am not any chitti or any other super robot to check the exact quantity while topping up itself. As a normal human i observed that the oil level reached near the minimum mark of the dip stick & thought of topping up. I top up the oil & then i recheck the level using dip stick. When i see the oil level near or a little above the maximum mark i feel the top up is completed. Now I can just estimate the amount of oil that went in by looking at the remaining amount of oil left in the can. I can just say its near 100ml or something like that but i cant say whether it was 39.x ml or 70.x ml. Though it would be above your said 30-40ml. My figures were just like a reference. I dint say use that figures & go verify with yours.

[muztariq]

@ madhav - if your bike generates a lot of heat, please avoid using the oil for 4000-5000 km. Ss oils only contain 20-30 percent synthetics, the remaining is mineral.

Regarding my earlier post which was moderated, i think it was more towards the funny side rather than offensive to anyone.. But perceptions can be different.. Thats why I intentionally put a smiling icon at the end.

[madhav krishna]

@ madhav - if your bike generates a lot of heat, please avoid using the oil for 4000-5000 km. Ss oils only contain 20-30 percent synthetics, the remaining is mineral.

Sure. But i would rather prefer to change the oil depending on the engine smoothness/harshness. 4000-5000 kms would be the last after which i wont continue with the oil.

[amitmalve]

Engine has become smooth with just a single top up of this oil.

That's more because of the psychological effect than the engine oil effect.

[shoeb2015]

Well thats a normal phenomenon with any bike. Whenever the level goes down the recommended mark, top up should be done. Please read the earlier pages before asking a question.
Depends on the oil used. Since i used semi synth previously i will drain the oil near 4-5k kms.
Nearly a 100-200 ml.

As said earlier please refer to earlier pages before asking a query. When the oil level goes down there will be a little harshness in engine & new oil in top up will obviously make the engine relatively smoother.

I have estimated that figures considering that the oil might need frequent top ups. I will be changing the oil as soon as the engine turns harsher.
Oil drying issue is quite common with motul semi synths & full synths. Especially with the ester range. Isnt it??
100-200ml is just a rough estimation. I dint measure anything. So the actual volume of the oil used for topup maybe less.

lol....so you suggest to replace a motul 5100 at just 1400kms?? Sorry but that would be way too costly for me.

I never said so.

Well i said nearly 100-200ml. Did i said it was exactly that amount.

Dont feel offended but I think you should do your homework before making such statements. Just go back in this very same thread & you will find a lot other cases. As a matter of fact even my bike dint need any top up with earlier oils until this one.

FYI the oil top up depends on the engine & sometimes oil used too. FZ's & fazers run a lot cooler than say pulsars & for the matter my bike is a joelled gladiator which is generating a lot more heat than a stock gladiator & stock fz. Hence the higher grade of XXW50 compared to stock XXW40. I have seen a lot of senior members complaining about the oil level dipping issue with the ester range of motul in relatively short periods. If you call all of them too as high then all i can say for you is "good luck".

I have seen a lot of pulsars which dried up more than 200ml of oil. Its not the fact that they are having any issue with the engine but its fact that they generate way too much of heat. You can check the same if you doubt me.

The way i rip my engine, am not surprised with the amount of oil used for top up. And please try to understand that am not any chitti or any other super robot to check the exact quantity while topping up itself. As a normal human i observed that the oil level reached near the minimum mark of the dip stick & thought of topping up. I top up the oil & then i recheck the level using dip stick. When i see the oil level near or a little above the maximum mark i feel the top up is completed. Now I can just estimate the amount of oil that went in by looking at the remaining amount of oil left in the can. I can just say its near 100ml or something like that but i cant say whether it was 39.x ml or 70.x ml. Though it would be above your said 30-40ml. My figures were just like a reference. I dint say use that figures & go verify with yours.

Sure. But i would rather prefer to change the oil depending on the engine smoothness/harshness. 4000-5000 kms would be the last after which i wont continue with the oil.

I made that post because I was surprised to know that a top-up can make engine smooth.

Before asking me to turn back pages,please check your own posts.

Quote-"Oil becomes dry"
Unquote-Now that means your engine oil is either is getting oxidized or getting burnt.

100-200 ml is too much oil consumption,better change your oil within 2500 kms.

Quote-"I will be changing the oil as soon as the engine turns harsher."

Unquote-But in your earlier post "Engine has become smooth with just a single top up of this oil."
You contradict yourself,when just a top-up makes engine smooth it means that your engine was running harsh earlier before top-up then why didn't you change oil ?

Quote-That is a normal phenomenon with any bike
Unquote-Because SS are not meant to be used for more than 3000kms.

Use an engine oil which is you can afford and change it regularly.

I am not able to understand what you post,I am out of this thread for now.

[murlidhar]

guys. sorry to interfere.
let's keep the topic informative.
let us stop our egos flying.
we all are members of a same club named xbhp.
we are brothers.
: )

happy safe riding.

[muztariq]

+1 to shoeb.. Felt his questions were very valid and he was very much concerned for the biker but what reply he got was unexpected from a senior member.

+2 to murlidhar.. Enough of discussions has already happened on a single post. Lets have something better to discuss.

Anybody tried the MAK 4T NXT?? The sae gradeless oil.. A lot has been said on its website. The company says it gives ultimate protection to higher cc bikes(125cc or above). Need a good review of this product from someone who tried it.
MAK 4T NXT : HOME

[murlidhar]

+1 to shoeb.. Felt his questions were very valid and he was very much concerned for the biker but what reply he got was unexpected from a senior member.

+2 to murlidhar.. Enough of discussions has already happened on a single post. Lets have something better to discuss.

Anybody tried the MAK 4T NXT?? The sae gradeless oil.. A lot has been said on its website. The company says it gives ultimate protection to higher cc bikes(125cc or above). Need a good review of this product from someone who tried it.
MAK 4T NXT : HOME

honestly am scared to test MAK lubricants. i tried it only once on my KH.

won't try it on my 4 Stroker at all.

[muztariq]

honestly am scared to test MAK lubricants. i tried it only once on my KH.

won't try it on my 4 Stroker at all.

its a new generation ss oil which would be better than its earlier versions. Also, underestimating oils like servo and other public sector indian companies is unjustified. Hyundai fills servo oil by default.
I think it would be a nice oil.. I would have tested it myself, but there is enough oil on my shelf for the next two years.. Still waiting for a good review here also servo introduced its ss and fs oil range recently.. That product is also unreviewed till now.

[FranklySpeaking]

thanks a lot for the information
earlier i had a perception that 5w would have got too thin at higher temperatures nullifying the effect of a lubricant.
but isn't that the thinner oil the better flow and reaches faster to the engine when we start it? but as the temperature grows the viscosity increases making it a perfect lubricant in higher temperatures.
so practically isn't 5w60 the one and best oil for all four stroke engines in all conditions?

No. It does not work that way. I am sorry to say you are completely wrong. Let me explain how it is.

None (read it as N-O-N-E) of the oils gets thicker with the increase in temperature, be it 0W30 or 10W10 or 15W50 or 20W50. They all lose viscosity with the increase in temperature.

What 15W50 means is that at cold temperature, the viscosity of this oil is equal to the viscosity that SAE 15 monograde oil AT COLD TEMPERATURE HAS and at hot temperature, its viscosity is equal to the viscosity that SAE 50 monograde oil at HOT TEMPERATURE HAS. (read the sentence carefully giving emphasis on the words in caps).

15W50 mineral oil means that the base oil used in making the oil is actually 15W oil, but chemicals called Viscosity Improvers are added to it so that it loses lesser viscosity than it would otherwise, as the temperature of oil goes up.

Thus, no oil in production becomes thicker with increase in temperature, even if that has those Viscosity Improvers added to it.

You are right when you say 5W60 would be perfect oil, or may be 5W100 or something may be perfect, but that is just theory. Assume you are making a 5W100 mineral oil. Now, it is actually a 5W oil with a LOT of Viscosity Improvers, so much so that, they cause HUGE amount of sludge as these Viscosity Improvers break down at those temperatures and form sludge (that black coloured thing floating in the oil and stuck to the inside of the engine).

Since you do not want that to happen, companies at times recommend 20W40 rather than 20W50. (both oils have same viscosity when cold and 20W50 is thicker than 20W40 when hot. But keep in mind, that viscosity of both the oils is way lesser than what it was when both oils were cold. So, 20W50 is theoretically better choice, but it has more VIs and thus more sludge formation, speaking generally. That is, the spread between aWb should be lesser. Now, 10W30 will use more VIs than 20W40 even though the difference is same in both cases, that is 20.)

Now, do not think too much into it. I have already spent sleepless nights on oils many years back!

No U didn't get it. When a manufacturer says that your engine is recommended XXw-YY oil grade, then the YY is generally meant to be at 100'C which are in adverse conditions! Now using a w60 oil for a w40 recommended engine will be more sluggish at the temperature normally attained by the bike as the perfect viscosity will be attained by a w40 oil.

So using a much higher wYY oil grade will result in sluggishness, dampening the Engine performance and might as well not reach to the inner parts due to its high viscosity.

Wrong. See what I just wrote. What is a perfect viscosity? Same oil does not even give you same viscosity 500 km hence as the oils degrade over a period of time!

[murlidhar]

well i know the oil doesn't get thicker but looking at my own post it seems that i meant it although i didn't mean it.
excuse my English
what i meant was ....leave it.

was bass comparing with a standard oil without vii or anything added.

well i have another doubt.
sounds noobish and silly. if we use only fs which i think don't have VIIs will there be any sludge formed in the engine?
and also how frequently should we remove the sludge
and also i know for certain that if i ask my mechanic to remove the sludge he would look at me as if i am an alien. if possible let me know what we call it in Hindi or in a mechanic's language.

thank you guys.

i just hope that research is going on that can make an engine oil which will never ( atleast few years) lose its viscosity and spare us.

[muztariq]

No. It does not work that way. I am sorry to say you are completely wrong. Let me explain how it is.

None (read it as N-O-N-E) of the oils gets thicker with the increase in temperature, be it 0W30 or 10W10 or 15W50 or 20W50. They all lose viscosity with the increase in temperature.

What 15W50 means is that at cold temperature, the viscosity of this oil is equal to the viscosity that SAE 15 monograde oil AT COLD TEMPERATURE HAS and at hot temperature, its viscosity is equal to the viscosity that SAE 50 monograde oil at HOT TEMPERATURE HAS. (read the sentence carefully giving emphasis on the words in caps).

15W50 mineral oil means that the base oil used in making the oil is actually 15W oil, but chemicals called Viscosity Improvers are added to it so that it loses lesser viscosity than it would otherwise, as the temperature of oil goes up.

Thus, no oil in production becomes thicker with increase in temperature, even if that has those Viscosity Improvers added to it.

You are right when you say 5W60 would be perfect oil, or may be 5W100 or something may be perfect, but that is just theory. Assume you are making a 5W100 mineral oil. Now, it is actually a 5W oil with a LOT of Viscosity Improvers, so much so that, they cause HUGE amount of sludge as these Viscosity Improvers break down at those temperatures and form sludge (that black coloured thing floating in the oil and stuck to the inside of the engine).

Since you do not want that to happen, companies at times recommend 20W40 rather than 20W50. (both oils have same viscosity when cold and 20W50 is thicker than 20W40 when hot. But keep in mind, that viscosity of both the oils is way lesser than what it was when both oils were cold. So, 20W50 is theoretically better choice, but it has more VIs and thus more sludge formation, speaking generally. That is, the spread between aWb should be lesser. Now, 10W30 will use more VIs than 20W40 even though the difference is same in both cases, that is 20.)

Now, do not think too much into it. I have already spent sleepless nights on oils many years back!



Wrong. See what I just wrote. What is a perfect viscosity? Same oil does not even give you same viscosity 500 km hence as the oils degrade over a period of time!

The points marked RED

well i have another doubt. if we use only fs which i think don't have VIIs will there be any sludge formed in the engine?
and also how frequently should we remove the sludge.

You will not get any sludge even if you use a mineral oil.. Sludge is a term invented by oil manufacturers to scare the hell out of an innocent customer.. It doesn't form so easily even in mineral oils.

Sludge starts forming when you do not change your oil for lets say 10,000 kms!! Scary sludge pictures all over the internet with that waxy sludge sticking to engine parts are from customers who never changed their oil at all!! Some drove 1,00,000 Kms without oil changes.

http://www.schleeter.com/images/BMW%20oil%20sludge.JPG

Please note: the engine shown above was running when it got jammed because of sludge. If the owner would have put a dipstick to measure oil, he would not have got even a drop on it!! We see good amount of oil when we put the dipstick in!

You change oil every 3000 kms not because 'sludge' will form inside. But because
1) Engine oil loses its efficiency to lubricate either by Dilution with fuel or by reduction/increase in oil viscosity overtime.
2) The antioxidants present in fresh oil deplete with time and the oil oxidises to form harmful carboxylic acids etc.
3) The dispersants/surfactants in oil die out and oil loses its efficiency to keep the carbon particles suspended
4) Oil starts degrading itself to form sludge.
5) Loss of comfort due to oil thickening.

In air cooled motorcycles (of less than around 200 ccs) - Good quality mineral engine oils can prevent sludge formation for atleast 10,000 kms.. but you change oil much before that.. And please note.. they "start" to form sludge at around 10,000 kms doesnt mean that your engine is going to die of sludge, you filter will filter out this sludge till it can!! Your engine will retain its health the moment you put fresh oil and oil filter!!

[FranklySpeaking]

well i know the oil doesn't get thicker but looking at my own post it seems that i meant it although i didn't mean it.
excuse my English
what i meant was ....leave it.

was bass comparing with a standard oil without vii or anything added.

well i have another doubt.
sounds noobish and silly. if we use only fs which i think don't have VIIs will there be any sludge formed in the engine?
and also how frequently should we remove the sludge
and also i know for certain that if i ask my mechanic to remove the sludge he would look at me as if i am an alien. if possible let me know what we call it in Hindi or in a mechanic's language.

thank you guys.

i just hope that research is going on that can make an engine oil which will never ( atleast few years) lose its viscosity and spare us.

I do not know about the synthetics. But, breaking down of Viscosity Improvers is just one of the reasons for sludge formation.

Read the " Black death for 21st century"

Car Bibles : The Engine Oil Bible

No need to worry too much about the problems because of sludge as long as you are changing the engine oil in time.

[FranklySpeaking]

1) If 15W50 contain base oil of 15W and has 15W viscosity at low temps and 50W viscosity at high temps.. oil is getting thicker with temp. Which doesnt happen. The number before W is nowhere related to viscosity.

Kindly read up my post again, where I wrote a few words in Capital letters too, to give emphasis on what I was saying.

Number before W as well as after it do have to do with viscosity!

Even though I had explained it already in the line that had words in capital letters, it seems like I could not make you understand. I will try again.

There are 2 viscosity numbers here in 20W50 - 20 and 50.

Viscosity of a 20 straight (monograde oil) at cold is MORE than the viscosity of 50 straight (monograde oil) at hot temp. (--1)

A 20W50 (multigrade oil) means that at cold, it will have viscosity equal to a 20-straight-at-COLD and equal to the viscosity of 50 straight when 50-straight-is-HOT. That in no way means viscosity is increasing. (Refer --1 above)

See this



and

A 15W50 is W40 oil with 20-30% Synthetic oil.. Which makes it behave like a 15W oil at COLD TEMPERATURE and it aslo has some VIIs which doesnt let it thin more than W50 (though its actually a W40 oil, but it resists thinning to W40 viscosity)

Could not make any sense of what that means.

2) The perfect oil for your bike is whats recommended by the manufacturer.. the number After W. The best oil for a 20W40 recommendation is

a) 5W40 (if you live in Alaska)
b) 10W40 (if you live anywhere in India)
c) Straight weight W40 (if you live in Sahara Desert and you donot start your bike in the mornings/evenings)

Do you think all these engineers working with Bajaj/Yamaha/Honda are idiots and you are the genius here when it comes to telling the recommended grade of oils? I own a Bajaj Pulsar 150 2002 model and the recommended grade is 20W40. For Pulsar 180, recommended oil back then was 20W50. Why did you not suggest Bajaj to move to 10W40 (LOL, which company in India makes oil in this grade, the one that you are recommended for usage ANYWHERE in India?)

If you noticed in the graphs above how exponentially the viscosity falls with increase in temperature, it needs no genius to figure out that the viscosity of even a 5W80 will be very less (less than 100 cSt) at operating temperature and it will flow quite freely.

Before the invention of multigrades, W30 (Monograde) was used in engines and not W100!! At that time VIIS were not even invented.

They used 30 straight, 40 straight, 50 straight because they had no option but to get closer to the optimum level of viscosity, for cold as well as hot. They did not have choice! 50 straight is already quite thick for cold starts, so obviously a 80 or 100 would be way too much at cold start.

By the way, talking about petrol engines, engine oils can get exposed to temperatures beyond 150 degree celcius (it is even more for diesels).

[muztariq]

Kindly read up my post again, where I wrote a few words in Capital letters too, to give emphasis on what I was saying.

Number before W as well as after it do have to do with viscosity!

Even though I had explained it already in the line that had words in capital letters, it seems like I could not make you understand. I will try again.

There are 2 viscosity numbers here in 20W50 - 20 and 50.

Viscosity of a 20 straight (monograde oil) at cold is MORE than the viscosity of 50 straight (monograde oil) at hot temp. (--1)

A 20W50 (multigrade oil) means that at cold, it will have viscosity equal to a 20-straight-at-COLD and equal to the viscosity of 50 straight when 50-straight-is-HOT. That in no way means viscosity is increasing. (Refer --1 above)

See this



and




Could not make any sense of what that means.



Do you think all these engineers working with Bajaj/Yamaha/Honda are idiots and you are the genius here when it comes to telling the recommended grade of oils? I own a Bajaj Pulsar 150 2002 model and the recommended grade is 20W40. For Pulsar 180, recommended oil back then was 20W50. Why did you not suggest Bajaj to move to 10W40 (LOL, which company in India makes oil in this grade, the one that you are recommended for usage ANYWHERE in India?)



If you noticed in the graphs above how exponentially the viscosity falls, it needs no genius to figure out that the viscosity of even a 5W80 will be very less (less than 100 cSt) at operating temperature and it will flow quite freely.



They used 30 straight, 40 straight, 50 straight because they had no option but to get closer to the optimum level of viscosity, for cold as well as hot. That is why. 50 straight is already quite thick for operation at cold starts, so obviously a 80 or 100 would be way too much at cold start.


Bottom line is - engineers making oils are experts in making the oils, thats why they are there and you and I are sitting up our arses and posting on xbhp, so let's not over-smart them or the engine manufacturers who know better what should go inside the engines they've made.


By the way, talking about petrol engines, engine oils can get exposed to temperatures beyond 150 degree celcius (it is even more for diesels).

all i can say to you is read.. read more and more.. Some more sleepless nights are required for you. All these pictures you have been sharing has been shared by me sometime back on the bible of engine oils called xbhp engine oil thread.
Mind your language also.. You may have to eat them up after you go through some of the posts before..
Try reading this

https://www.xbhp.com/talkies/universal-threads/4789-engine-oils-490.html

when I say India I include kashmir where in some areas temperature go below -15deg celcius.. Your 20w40 will not start the engine there..

Some 10w40 grade oils for you.. Shell ax7 ss oil, shell advance ultra fs, motul 300v fs.. And many more.. You dont know that this grade is available!! Read more.

there is a link in my post.. Read it today.