Engine Oils

[psr]

Overbased calcium phenates with detergent and additives are the reason you see the conflict. The main function of these additives is to provide that base required neutralizing corrosive acids and detergency and to control piston deposits as such. ZDDP in and of itself is a an additive. Remember this, engine oil is a blend of performance additives in a base oil, such as CPS or ZDDP, which makes it mineral, semi synthetic or fully sythetic.

Cheers!
VJ

The base oil makes the difference if an end oil is mineral SS or FS..Oils like Motul 300 V is man made...oils like the shell ultra are Dino oils(dinosaurs time...meaning from the earth). The Pure synthetics are man made and their particle size is much smaller than the Dino ones ....The additives are for protection to the engine parts,and for keeping the polluting particles suspended in oil.
Engine Protection consist of..
1. Controlling Acid formation and wear through neutralizing of Acids.
2. Preventing Drive train wear through making oil easier to circulate, and having a thin film of slippery/protective additive and oil on the moving parts.
3.Controlling/preventing pitting by oxidizing residues.
4. Circulating and distributing Heat from hot spots in engine,thereby acting as a coolant,
5. Sealing piston ring to bore gap , and offering good sustained lubrication at all temperature.
6. Carrying blowby away ,and keeping the ingredients in suspension,and not allowing it to react with any of the engine parts.
7. The most Important function of forming a thin slippery layer ,between moving parts in a engine,ensuring least wear.

[mayank.travadi]

I have a few questions about diesel oils which you guys are using in bikes

Like how it is not recommended to use car oils in bike as they have friction reduction agents which then leads to clutch slippage...doesnt diesel oil have such stuff?

From a small google search all i came to know is diesel oils have lot more additives(detergents) to keep the engine cleaner...if thats the only difference from a normal car oil(petrol based) and a diesel oil....how come the diesel oil suits the bikes? is any diesel oil fine as long as the viscosity ratings are same? read somewhere if a diesel oil is JASO MA certified it can be used in bikes...

another question is can these diesel oils or petrol based car oils be used in CVT transmission scooters like activa? they have a dry clutch right? and have a separate compartment for gear oil...

[B7ACKTHORN]

The base oil makes the difference if an end oil is mineral SS or FS..Oils like Motul 300 V is man made...oils like the shell ultra are Dino oils(dinosaurs time...meaning from the earth). The Pure synthetics are man made and their particle size is much smaller than the Dino ones ....The additives are for protection to the engine parts,and for keeping the polluting particles suspended in oil.
Engine Protection consist of..
1. Controlling Acid formation and wear through neutralizing of Acids.
2. Preventing Drive train wear through making oil easier to circulate, and having a thin film of slippery/protective additive and oil on the moving parts.
3.Controlling/preventing pitting by oxidizing residues.
4. Circulating and distributing Heat from hot spots in engine,thereby acting as a coolant,
5. Sealing piston ring to bore gap , and offering good sustained lubrication at all temperature.
6. Carrying blowby away ,and keeping the ingredients in suspension,and not allowing it to react with any of the engine parts.
7. The most Important function of forming a thin slippery layer ,between moving parts in a engine,ensuring least wear.

Spot on psr ji. Yes, that's the same reason Motul 300V bleeds in most of the bikes out there, compared to 5100 due to the finer elements as you've precisely mentioned.

Cheers!
VJ

[sinnerz2000]

Spot on psr ji. Yes, that's the same reason Motul 300V bleeds in most of the bikes out there, compared to 5100 due to the finer elements as you've precisely mentioned.

Cheers!
VJ

What's the diff between motul 5100 and 3000? And which is bettet?

[psr]

I have a few questions about diesel oils which you guys are using in bikes
Like how it is not recommended to use car oils in bike as they have friction reduction agents which then leads to clutch slippage...doesnt diesel oil have such stuff?
From a small google search all i came to know is diesel oils have lot more additives(detergents) to keep the engine cleaner...if thats the only difference from a normal car oil(petrol based) and a diesel oil....how come the diesel oil suits the bikes? is any diesel oil fine as long as the viscosity ratings are same? read somewhere if a diesel oil is JASO MA certified it can be used in bikes...

another question is can these diesel oils or petrol based car oils be used in CVT transmission scooters like activa? they have a dry clutch right? and have a separate compartment for gear oil...

The Technical term used for the the friction changing Additive is " Friction modifier ". If this is mentioned in the oil composition then it can not be used in Bikes with clutch ,gear and engine oil combined system....similarly with CVT transmission.. Molybdenum disulphide is used as the Friction modifier,which leads to reduction in friction . this is the agent that causes the clutch to slip...The Shell Rimula R3x has NO friction modifier,and has ZDDP which helps in good lube and smooth running of moving parts.The detergents help in keeping the engine clean which helps in full and proper wetting of moving parts with oil...it helps in clearing sludge and prevents it's further formation.
A multipurpose Diesel/Patrol oil is the Shell Rotella available mostly in USA, and it's consumption is so high, and preferred that Shell is selling all it's production in USA itself.
The ZDDP, detergents, and slightly better Viscosity index and flash point all made me try the Rimula R3x in my ZMA....
Please remember it is an experiment and I DO NOT ADVOCATE it's use by anybody else....

What's the diff between motul 5100 and 3000? And which is bettet?

Motul 3000 is mineral oil while the 5100 is Semi synthetic.....Only actual use in specific engine will decide which is more suitable than the other.

[B7ACKTHORN]

The Technical term used for the the friction changing Additive is " Friction modifier ". If this is mentioned in the oil composition then it can not be used in Bikes with clutch ,gear and engine oil combined system....similarly with CVT transmission.. Molybdenum disulphide is used as the Friction modifier,which leads to reduction in friction . this is the agent that causes the clutch to slip...The Shell Rimula R3x has NO friction modifier,and has ZDDP which helps in good lube and smooth running of moving parts.The detergents help in keeping the engine clean which helps in full and proper wetting of moving parts with oil...it helps in clearing sludge and prevents it's further formation.
A multipurpose Diesel/Patrol oil is the Shell Rotella available mostly in USA, and it's consumption is so high, and preferred that Shell is selling all it's production in USA itself.
The ZDDP, detergents, and slightly better Viscosity index and flash point all made me try the Rimula R3x in my ZMA....
Please remember it is an experiment and I DO NOT ADVOCATE it's use by anybody else....

But psr ji, that Rotella was quite an info. I've heard so much rumble about this oil, but now it cleared all my doubts. And BTW, eagerly waiting for the results, please do let us know without fail.

What's the diff between motul 5100 and 3000? And which is bettet?

As psr said, it's more or 3000 is mineral which is best suited for run-in of motorcycles, and the 5100 is a semi synthetic, which is preferably used after the mineral break in of the engine. In case if you've redone your engine with new block and piston, you can stick to mineral for a while and then stick to 5100.

Cheers!
VJ

[muztariq]

Before I give specific replies to the comments below, let me first provide my understanding about ZDDP and its usage in engine oils.

Firstly, ZDDP is not just an anti wear agent which protects metal to metal contact but also an antioxidant and a friction reducer. It is one of the most cost efficient additive of the engine oil. But, its a pollutant hence its usage is limited in the engine oil.

Diesel engine oils contain high detergent/dispersants - To keep the carbon floating in the oil (you know this right!) But what you doesnt know is that when you increase the amount of detergent in the oil, the clutch and other components become more adhesive - i.e the fuel consumption as well as friction between the clutch plates increases.

Diesel engine oils when used in diesel cars should have high dispersibility, high antioxidant efficiency and high anti wear properties. Hence these usually employ high ZDDP and Detergent content.

Whereas petrol engine oil may have lesser dispersibility, low anti-oxidant properties and good anti-wear properties. Hence these employ less ZDDP (higher ZDDP will poison modern petrol specific catalytic converters), low detergents, alternatives to ZDDP in the form of Molybdenum additives (these are costlier than ZDDP) but petrol engine oils have any other alternative?

So, why wont you use diesel engine oil in petrol car is clear. But why wont you use petrol engine oil in motorcycles!? Because they have low detergent levels and low ZDDP and molybdenum additives. As the ZDDP content is low, detergent content is low and the molybdenum compounds are present - The oils will start slipping the clutch on repeated use (may even do it on first application in aged/poor friction material containing clutches)

But, when you use diesel engine oils in motorcycles, the high dispersant level increases friction between clutch plates and the presence of high ZDDP levels and even Molybdenum additives does not allow the clutch to slip. As there is not much restrictions on ZDDP in diesel engine oils, companies do not invest in molybdenum compounds in diesel engine oils and just increase ZDDP content. But there is a catch here - on increasing ZDDP levels the ash value of oil increases - This forces the engine oil companies to use ashless dispersants in diesel engine oil - which further increases the cost of the engine oil. This is one of the reasons why long drain interval engine oils whether petrol or diesel are costlier than others as they contain these ashless detergents. Good diesel engine oils are by default costlier because they have high ZDDP, Ashless dispersants, higher antioxidants and othe additives like VII polymers, pour point additives etc etc.

Thank you Muztariq and PSR ji for the good work and sharing lots of knowledge with us. I did some research and decided to use the left-over Mobil Delvac Super 1400 15W40 oil in my Humble Splendor plus without any hesitation( which was previously running on Shell AX7 10W40).
It is also surprising to know that 1400 contain 1-2.5% ZDDP whereas 1300 has 5% CALCIUM PHENATE SULPHIDE and NO ZDDP.
Here in Hyderabad Delvac 1400 costs Rs.290/- and Delvac 1300 costs Rs.255/-.

My detailed review of this oil will come up only in April or during Peak summer.

Calcium Phenate Sulphide is a detergent - 5% is too much of it frankly!! My choice of Delvac 1300 was based puerly on ZDDP levels found on US supplies. Didnt knew ZDDP is not present in Indian supplies. But it may contain Molybdenum compounds as I am enjoying every drop of it. But if the comfort level is high this oil can really last very very long in petrol engines of our bikes (5% Dispersant - Man are you kidding me! But thats true.. checked it on the MSDS of Indian origon oil) in my opinion Delvac 1400 would be better then.

I have a few questions about diesel oils which you guys are using in bikes

Like how it is not recommended to use car oils in bike as they have friction reduction agents which then leads to clutch slippage...doesnt diesel oil have such stuff?

From a small google search all i came to know is diesel oils have lot more additives(detergents) to keep the engine cleaner...if thats the only difference from a normal car oil(petrol based) and a diesel oil....how come the diesel oil suits the bikes? is any diesel oil fine as long as the viscosity ratings are same? read somewhere if a diesel oil is JASO MA certified it can be used in bikes...

another question is can these diesel oils or petrol based car oils be used in CVT transmission scooters like activa? they have a dry clutch right? and have a separate compartment for gear oil...

I think my earlier detailed views would clarify the use of diesel engine oil in bikes.. High detergent level gives higher friction - added friction reducers and ZDDP compensates and reduces friction - Overall, clutch does not slip. If it slips - Avoid using these oils!

[B7ACKTHORN]

Before I give specific replies to the comments below, let me first provide my understanding about ZDDP and its usage in engine oils.

Firstly, ZDDP is not just an anti wear agent which protects metal to metal contact but also an antioxidant and a friction reducer. It is one of the most cost efficient additive of the engine oil. But, its a pollutant hence its usage is limited in the engine oil.

Diesel engine oils contain high detergent/dispersants - To keep the carbon floating in the oil (you know this right!) But what you doesnt know is that when you increase the amount of detergent in the oil, the clutch and other components become more adhesive - i.e the fuel consumption as well as friction between the clutch plates increases.

Diesel engine oils when used in diesel cars should have high dispersibility, high antioxidant efficiency and high anti wear properties. Hence these usually employ high ZDDP and Detergent content.

Whereas petrol engine oil may have lesser dispersibility, low anti-oxidant properties and good anti-wear properties. Hence these employ less ZDDP (higher ZDDP will poison modern petrol specific catalytic converters), low detergents, alternatives to ZDDP in the form of Molybdenum additives (these are costlier than ZDDP) but petrol engine oils have any other alternative?

So, why wont you use diesel engine oil in petrol car is clear. But why wont you use petrol engine oil in motorcycles!? Because they have low detergent levels and low ZDDP and molybdenum additives. As the ZDDP content is low, detergent content is low and the molybdenum compounds are present - The oils will start slipping the clutch on repeated use (may even do it on first application in aged/poor friction material containing clutches)

But, when you use diesel engine oils in motorcycles, the high dispersant level increases friction between clutch plates and the presence of high ZDDP levels and even Molybdenum additives does not allow the clutch to slip. As there is not much restrictions on ZDDP in diesel engine oils, companies do not invest in molybdenum compounds in diesel engine oils and just increase ZDDP content. But there is a catch here - on increasing ZDDP levels the ash value of oil increases - This forces the engine oil companies to use ashless dispersants in diesel engine oil - which further increases the cost of the engine oil. This is one of the reasons why long drain interval engine oils whether petrol or diesel are costlier than others as they contain these ashless detergents. Good diesel engine oils are by default costlier because they have high ZDDP, Ashless dispersants, higher antioxidants and othe additives like VII polymers, pour point additives etc etc.

Going through this, I have a little doubt. Given the CCs would definitely be impacted due to the oxidation caused by ZDDPs. I wonder, if an oil, for example, used in an older model petrol engine car without the CC, would it cause any significant problems?

Because it's almost a silver jubilee if you see the ZDDP levels slowly decreasing and the engine failures recurring. Going through the MSDS, the manufacturers themselves, used several independent testing firms for the right additives.

But what if diesel engines were to use only ZDDP, would it cause the engine to be more adhesive, as opposed to using the detergents. So if detergents/dispersants are reduced pe se, what effect would it have on a diesel car with catalytic converter?

Cheers!
VJ

[sinnerz2000]

Just use regular petrol motorbike oils, there are so many great ones, y would you experiment on your steed? There is a reason why car/bike and petrol/diesel oils are different, and they're made specifically for engines after years of r&d by professionals

[muztariq]

Going through this, I have a little doubt. Given the CCs would definitely be impacted due to the oxidation caused by ZDDPs. I wonder, if an oil, for example, used in an older model petrol engine car without the CC, would it cause any significant problems? ZDDP wont cause any problems... In racing cars you calculate the amount of zddp present in the oil, add further as per your previous experience/knowledge/hit and trial and I am talking very very modern engines - Of course without CC. You would be surprised to know that 2 stroke engine oils do not contain ZDDP at all (lack of cams)

Because it's almost a silver jubilee if you see the ZDDP levels slowly decreasing and the engine failures recurring. Going through the MSDS, the manufacturers themselves, used several independent testing firms for the right additives. ZDDP is reducing cause we are using Synthetics now in modern cars.. API SN is essentially synthetic. Synthetic oil (pure 100% synthetic) acts as a surrogate to zddp.

But what if diesel engines were to use only ZDDP, would it cause the engine to be more adhesive, as opposed to using the detergents. So if detergents/dispersants are reduced pe se, what effect would it have on a diesel car with catalytic converter? Diesel engine oil cant afford to lose detergents. That's a pre-requisite. Carbon suspending property of oil needs to be very efficient because of the soot generated in diesel engines. ZDDP is metallic in nature just like Lead.. remember usage of the word unleaded petrol some years back! Now all are using unleaded petrol only.. because it would poison 'modern' CCs. Even high ZDDP would! There is a design difference between Diesel CCs and Petrol CCs. I dont remember right now, but Diesel CCs wont be poisoned by ZDDP easily, something to do with sulfur too.. Diesel/Diesel engine oil with low sulpher content has some relation with Diesel CCs.

Cheers!
VJ

Replies in color

Just use regular petrol motorbike oils, there are so many great ones, y would you experiment on your steed? There is a reason why car/bike and petrol/diesel oils are different, and they're made specifically for engines after years of r&d by professionals

All said and done, if you get a good oil which suits your requirement in motorcycle specific oil - Go for it!

I, like many other FZ owners, was encountering rough gear shifts and not so smooth engine. Was forced to use SS oil from 1000 km on the odo and the oil's smoothness would end after 500 kms. Shifted to bike specific FS engine oil and all roughness vanished!! But my running is low 4000 km in 6 months!! Never wanted to keep any oil in the engine for 6 months hence kept experimenting. Put some additives in fuel to clean up the engine. Some discussions on this forum to use diesel engine oil as an engine flush, also have seen ppl using CRB diesel engine oils etc in motocylces for years, finally experimented with Mobil 1300 Diesel engine oil. The initial results were very good, but I suspected that the clutch will slip.. But it never happened yet. Researched about the oil and found it is being used by many other bikers (wet clutch bikes) around the world. So, I am not alone.. even If I am I dont really care.. what max it will do is start slipping the clutch.. The day it happens I will revert back :-) Isnt that option always open!!

One more thing - This Diesel engine oil is API SJ approved, it can be used in petrol engines.. Thats why I used it.. wont be caustic or touch me not type for our gasoline engines!!

[B7ACKTHORN]

Replies in color All said and done, if you get a good oil which suits your requirement in motorcycle specific oil - Go for it!

I, like many other FZ owners, was encountering rough gear shifts and not so smooth engine. Was forced to use SS oil from 1000 km on the odo and the oil's smoothness would end after 500 kms. Shifted to bike specific FS engine oil and all roughness vanished!! But my running is low 4000 km in 6 months!! Never wanted to keep any oil in the engine for 6 months hence kept experimenting. Put some additives in fuel to clean up the engine. Some discussions on this forum to use diesel engine oil as an engine flush, also have seen ppl using CRB diesel engine oils etc in motocylces for years, finally experimented with Mobil 1300 Diesel engine oil. The initial results were very good, but I suspected that the clutch will slip.. But it never happened yet. Researched about the oil and found it is being used by many other bikers (wet clutch bikes) around the world. So, I am not alone.. even If I am I dont really care.. what max it will do is start slipping the clutch.. The day it happens I will revert back :-) Isnt that option always open!!

Exactly my mind first stuck to two strokes, when it came to ZDDPs. And +1 on the diesel oil part, I was very hesitant after my mechanic used it without my intervention, but fortunately was able to read some info regarding the same oils being used abroad even for supersport bikes, which makes me happy and sad at the same time. Why? Perhaps it was just my mind playing hocus pocus on me just for the fact that diesel engine oil is being used.

Cheers!
VJ

[psr]

I am happy to see that the oil discussion thread is entering into a more analytical trend...we are now talking more about not just the oil chemistry but also about the Additives and it's effect....
The shocking news is that as of 2010 all oils are restricted in usage of ZDDP to 800 PPM ,and a max of 0.1%....this is the new standard to be followed and God help older engines..
The trend seems to be to kill all older motors and promote newer ones ,without taking into account what the impact on environment is going to be.
here is a link which is a brief account of the rise and fall of ZDDP...

ZDDP: When, Where, What, Why, How?: Engine Builder.

@ Muztariq,and B7ackThorn... Regarding my experience with the Rimula R3x, I have only good things to say, and I am afraid it may influence some one else...for me the engine smoothness had increased,vibrations reduced,cold starts are better,after 500 Kms the oil still looks new,acceleration is better, FE had increased,and Spark plug looks clean...
Now all these may be particular to my ZMA and so may not be applicable to other's..Unless someone takes the risk knowingly we may never know.
My interest in diesel oil came because of my search for higher ZDDP ,since I use a engine with flat shoe Rocker arm, and also read about the Rotella oil....
I had also read posts that said that Rotella in USA is Rimula elsewhere.. and can be used in Gasoline engines...now all these are hearsay.....Elsewhere Kawasaki KZ650 owners are using the Rimula and Rotella oils with good results...Suzuki DR 650 used Rimula in dakkar race.....so I took the risk to use and see for myself.....
It is upto the individual to decide on which oil to use ,and their decisions should not be influenced by us....

http://www.stromtrooper.com/dl650-2004-2011-%5B-wee-strom-%5D/44798-shell-rotella-t-now-jaso-ma-certified.html

http://www.dirtrider.net/forums3/showthread.php?t=146867

[srikany]

XW30 or X W 40 the dilemma

Veedol, I can vouch for. But regarding Ax5 and AX7....I thought that AX5 is SS and AX7 is FS? Can u please clear my doubts? For instance, on my Hunk, the recommended grade is 10w30 and I have used Honda 10w30 mineral (excellent oil-full VFM), 10w30 HH oils (3rd class) 10w30 Veedol (another very good oil). Was planning to try the 10w40 this summer from Veedol/Shell. (mineral only)

To all fellow bikers, most of the standards and the norms we are made to follow are simply because the EU or US of A has started it ( immaterial of how suitable and sensible they are for us). The same story applies to the usage of 30 grade oil in the same splendor that has remained unchanged for more than 15 years now. In places where the fuel quality is consistently excellent and the roads and ambient temperatures are very pleasant, 30W makes sense ( as it is also claimed to give better fuel efficieny). But I would not take the risk and would stick to a thicker 40 grade for a long engine life and keep the bike happy.

[sinnerz2000]

I'm using 20w40 on my uni from past 2 years, but the A.S.C recommends 10w30, am I using a too thick oil for my bike? Wouldn't 10w30 heat up alot and fast? I'm using gulf pride 20w40 right now and my engine gets hot fast already

[Honda_CBF]

Veedol, I can vouch for. But regarding Ax5 and AX7....I thought that AX5 is SS and AX7 is FS? Can u please clear my doubts? For instance, on my Hunk, the recommended grade is 10w30 and I have used Honda 10w30 mineral (excellent oil-full VFM), 10w30 HH oils (3rd class) 10w30 Veedol (another very good oil). Was planning to try the 10w40 this summer from Veedol/Shell. (mineral only)

For me even honda 20w40 felt pathetic. NVH levels were too much. also the gears were hard. (not rock hard) I would not risk with 10w30. unless if its winter. Also, your hunk (and my stunner employs an engine which is rated for xxW40 oil, when it was built.) So, even the universal 20w40 wouldnt harm. looking at both the cases, 10w40 is the best grade todays hero & honda bikes can have. (mathematical view point )
but no mineral oil is present in 10w40 grade. its too wide for them. So, AX7 is SS and AX5 is mineral. and Ultra is FS. but this whole "synthetic" term has become blurry in todays era where we can super-refine those great quality crude oil (yes!! crude oil also has its standards) so we get "highly refined mineral oils" it has negligible % of impurities (oils made from this are called group2+ or may be 3). AX7 is this, highly refined mineral oil. And shell advanced Ultra is highly refined mineral oil + some tiny % of true FS stock of oil, which can be PAOs, esters and other things I dont know. These PAOs, esters are called group 4 base oils. I dont think Even the most expensive oil Motul 300v has more than 30% of eaters..
Go with Veedol super swift or Shell advanced Ax7, give it a few days ride and you'll come close to nirvana..
P.S. If you find veedol super swift, then do share the shop's location.

@sinnerz,
stick to 20w40, unless its 30' C or lower outside. Regarding your engine heat check if the oil is due past its change time. one should change mineral oils max by 2500km/6months, whichever is earlier. little earlier is always better. if this isnt the case then may be your carb is lean tuned (mechs do this commonly) these 2 are the most common.

other things can be:

- lack of oil circulation

- inadequatly torque'd spark plug

-engine deposits.

but do check the heat also, after some 15 kms of city ride, crank case cover should not be hotter than a fresh tea cup..