Engine Oils

[sancreation]

Re: Engine Oils

Whow man thanks a lot for the info..

sancreation

[asn39]

Re: Engine Oils

Whow man thanks a lot for the info..

sancreation

i use shell ax7 on cb unicorn 150cc its a good oil does not get hot soon unlike previous one veedol take off 4t
ax7 does the job well and at about 2000 it is surprisingly good now i am also waiting for somebody to give review over MOBIL and PETRONAS which are listed on AMAZON.IN

[asn39]

Re: Engine Oils

Good news

And there is it amazon listed MOTUL oils on site

[shv18]

Re: Engine Oils

AN EXPERIMENT WITH HDEO (Diesel) OIL ON A TATTERED MOTORCYCLE:

Warning: As the headnote above suggest, this has been done only on experimental basis! Though HDEO oils have had great success with motorcycle engines, it is not supported by motorcycle manufacturers on paper. If you decide to take a plunge into the world of using HDEO oil in your respective bike after reading about this project, know this: you are doing so at your own risk!! Donot blame me or anyone from this thread if things don't work out the way you wanted! I donot own the bike, it belongs to a friend of mine.

* Prelude: The model and make of the motorcycle in question: Hero Honda CBZ Extreme. Year of manufacture: 2007. Kms clocked: 44,000 and running

The owner since, the purchase of this vehicle has never even replaced the air filter. When enquired about the last oil change and any pattern if at all it was followed, my friend didn't remember the exact date but at an estimate of roughly 1 - 1.5 years was calculated. So i guess the readers are getting a fair bit of idea where this is going! In short i am planning to burn my hands on a doner bike which even the owner is aware, may die an ugly death anytime soon due to his lack of maintenance.

So we took a series of simple steps to atleast bring this vehicle to a functional state from its current horrible working condition till the time he can generate enough funds to look for a replacement motorcycle.

STEP 1: The air filter and the spark plug were replaced. The chain and sprockets had elongated to such a level that the chain was going to fall off from its place at any point of time! So the whole set was also replaced. The moment these changes were made, as expected the bike gained a fair bit of power back and was willing to move quickly on the tacho and on the speedo as well. A lot of scratching and squeaking noises vanished post chain & sprocket change. That instant response let my friend understand that what i am insisting on (basic maintenance) works!! He was now more than willing to go for the next set of repairs.

STEP 2: Considering the history of the motorcycle with no track record of engine oil replacement nor any known history about of what grade of oil was used, it was decided that we get the clutch side of the engine case opened up and also in the process clean up the engine oil strainer which i was expecting to be completely jammed up with gunk. But before we did so, i insisted on getting the engine oil level checked before any more rides were done and the vehicle was prepped to be taken to the nearest mechanic. To my great horror when then engine oil level was checked using the dip stick, there was black goo stuck at the edge of the dip stick and a not hint of oil!! It was pretty evident from that moment that this motorcycle has been running all this while without even basic engine oil lubrication, reaching the bearings, valve train, camshaft, cam timing chain etc. I guess you get the picture!! If i hadn't put my foot down, my friend was looking at a catastrophic engine seizure. I immediately insisted on topping up with a little bit of available diesel oil we found at our working base (kept aside for field trucks), to keep the vehicle from meeting its untimely fate.

I was still at shock wondering how the hell this motorcycle was in running condition with almost absolute oil starvation to all its essential components, till senior rider @psr sir shared an interesting thread about a similar state Honda CRF230 (Link: CRF230F: blocked oilway to the head.... - ADVrider) which was still working even with all internal components being worn to beyond recognition. I believe this truely shows the remarkable level of engineering prowess of Honda. I now understand why this Japanese motorcycle brand is loved and is known for making one of the most reliable bikes around the world.

But let me not break the bubble rightaway, a series of pictures will give you an idea about the state of the engine and may make you wonder why on earth it was chugging along its owner and even with all the abuse still managed to function!!

DISMANTLING: THE HORROR!!: owing to time crunch we had to postpone the work to next day. I requested my friend to ride his vehicle very slowly till we can fill up the engine with fresh oil. He lives somewhere around 20 kms from office and this vehicle is his primary means of daily commute. Being an absolute motorcycle fanatic, i was really worried about the things i was expecting to see when we open up the engine the day after and also praying to the lord almighty that my friend reaches his home safely.

The next day we took the vehicle to a local mechanic and disassembled the clutch side case.



Pic 1: HH CBZ Extreme, 2007 model



Pic 2: Note the engine oil leaking signs from the clutch return spring side while the engine oil was getting drained.



Pic 3: The clutch cover side was cleaned while the engine oil was getting drained before we open up the clutch side casing.



Pic 4: Note the amount of engine oil that came out eventually from the bike. It was less than 300ml. Engine oil capacity of an HH CBZ Extreme is around 1 ltr. I am pretty sure that the oil which came out, majority of it was what was filled a day before.



Pic 5: The mechanic opening up the engine clutch side case.



Pic 6: Note the brownish coating of gunk and "used beyond it life" leftovers from engine oil and years of abuse



Pic 7: Engine Clutch side case has got huge built up of brownish deposits all over it!!



Pic 8: Another angle of the Clutch Side engine case



Pic 8: The engine oil strainer was cleaned and put back inside the engine


CHOICE OF ENGINE OIL, SHELL RIMULA R4 AND THEORY VS PRACTICALITY:



I guess the pictures of the components above give the readers a fair bit of idea that this engine is more or less a goner! However, to keep it from seizing and also on an experimental basis it was decided to use Shell Rimula R4 diesel engine oil and see what is the outcome on this motorcycle. Please bear in mind that enough has already been discussed about Shell Rimula HDEO series oil on this thread and many proponents have already posted positive experience with this engine oil on their respective motorcycles in this thread. thus, any member who is interested to learn more about HDEO engine oil, i would request you to go through the earlier pages on this thread and see what the fuss is all about!! The Shell Rimula series has got the highest content of ZDDP or known in short "Zinc" which is a friction buster. In lay man terms the "Zinc" adheres to the surface of the engine components just like a lamination plastic we use on our licence or documents, which protects the engine from wear and tear and reduces friction when two metal surfaces come in contact. The Shell Rimula R4 being a diesel engine oil, also has a higher content of detergent formulation which cleans up all the gunk, varnish deposited by years of neglect on this particular engine and hopefully will make the engine run in a better state (atleast on theory!!).

Ofcourse the obvious downside to all this is with all the gunk that has formed up on the bearings, components and the other parts of the engine, the better and active cleaning properties of this oil may ruin the tolerances that have built up over the years and as a result the vibrations may creep in like Apache RTR bikes (no offence to the TVS owners) and the the typical Honda smoothness may reduce drastically as per my discussion with senior rider @psr sir. Also due to engine oil starvation all this while, with fresh top up of whichever engine oil, the piston rings have most likely failed and the cylinder walls scarred will lead to piston blow by and also rapid engine oil consumption as one starts riding the vehicle post clean up session.

However, there is also a possibility with the "Zinc" formation/ layering on the engine components with using Shell Rimula R4 and now hopefully with periodic oil changes with this brand may eventually reduce the engine oil consumption but not to absolute zero. I was really in a mood to dismantle the whole engine and take a stock of the situation but due to budget crunch and lack of time (office goers!) we couldn't manage to do that. For the sake of noobs, i would also like to share a simple educational video about the functions of an engine oil sponsored by Valvoline just to give the readers an idea the need of corrosion inhibitors, detergent and friction reducers like ZDDP:

Anyways, post the refitment of the clutch side engine casing, the engine oil was filled up and the motorcycle cranked to life. The engine was let to warm up a bit and then the engine revved slowly to 4000-5000 rpm in order to see if we notice any leaks from the gaskets, blue smoke emission from the exhaust. As expected a very little amount of blue smoke started emitting from the rear end. I guess it is a clear indication that the piston rings are on their way out. Regardless, we carried on with our work and the owner was asked to ride his bike for a few days and report back on his experience. Post completion of 1000 kms, the engine oil will be drained and inspected and the results shall be shared on this thread. After 200 kms, so far the engine oil is holding up and the gears have become butter smooth. though slight amount of engine vibes have increased. The owner is experiencing better engine heat management and smoother acceleration from this tattered bike.

Anyways, shall report more on this later as my friend continues to clock kms with Shell Rimula R4 on a worse case scenario bike...


Cheers,

[Pinaki]

Re: Engine Oils

Did you clean out the centrifugal filter or not ?

[shv18]

Re: Engine Oils

AN EXPERIMENT WITH HDEO (DIESEL) OIL ON A TATTERED MOTORCYCLE (PART 2):

OBSERVATIONS, POST 500 KMS OF RUNNING: Hi all, as promised earlier, here is a small update:

* Post 500 kms, the engine oil has changed its colour to lighter brown which indicates that the Shell Rimula R4 diesel oil has already begun its work of slowly scrubbing away the gum and varnish deposits from the engine internals.

* As per the feedback i received from my friend, his CBZ Extreme earlier used to emit white smoke during cold morning start ups. Post Rimula R4 engine oil treatment it has now vanished completely. As suggested by @psr sir the vehicle was intially slightly vibey at certain rpms, i guess owing to the disloging of the gum and varnish deposits which made the old moving parts tolerance go haywire. Now after 500 kms, the vibrations have reduced drastically.

* There is not a drop of reduction in engine oil level nor on the dipstick. However having said that, the owner is keeping the rpms limited to approx 3000 - 4000 with his daily rides. So i guess the 2nd oil change and higher rpm riding will reveal the true state of the piston rings.

* the fuel economy is now hovering around roughly 44 - 45 kmpl from the earlier scene of 26-28 kmpl. If i am correct, a well maintained CBZ Extreme would give a healthy FE of around 50-55 kmpl. So with a simple set of servicing along with engine oil treatment we are not far off from the real world OEM FE figures.. i am expecting a further increase of 1-2 kmpl to be added to the overall FE (on a conservative side) post the oil change.

So Shocking would be an understatement!

Honestly, i was expecting this Honda engine to go kaput, vibrate like an Enfield or atleast drink engine oil like there is no tomorrow. But instead, it has become smoother and is slowly creeping back to its former glory. In theory if i look at the current state, my guess is that the higher percentage of ZDDP or "Zinc" is doing its job wonderfully, sealing the gap between the piston and the piston rings and reducing the friction by forming a layer between moving parts. Also active detergents are busy cleaning up the gum. As per my discussion with @psr sir, it would take atleast 5 more cycles of Rimula treatment to clean up 80-90% of the gum build up that has taken place over a period of time. So based on this initial experience atleast the rumour of HDEO oils on motrocycle engine especially Shell Rimula series seems to be true.. heck i am seeing the proof in front of my own eyes! @psr sir had mentioned that based on his research a lot of motorcycle owners have witnessed reduction in vibrations and oil consumption post switching over to Shell Rimula series diesel oil. However truth be told, i really wasn't expecting the effects to take place so quickly in just 500 kms of running with this engine oil. Anyways, we will be getting the second cycle of Shell Rimula R4 engine oil treament done within a week's time. Then I would be in a better position to share the images during the oil change and let you gentlemen decide.

If the owner allows it, post 5 more oil changes, we will open up the clutch side cover again and inspect if there is any reduction in gum and varnish built up unlike what was posted earlier and shared with you all. Till then will keep an eye on the engine oil level, any surprises thrown up at us and ofcourse the FE figures which should give all of us an idea about the health of the engine. What surprises me the most is even after so much abuse this little 150cc Honda motor is still holding up. How in world it managed to do it, still beats logic atleast in my books!

Hope this is something interesting we can learn from.

Did you clean out the centrifugal filter or not ?

Yes it was done.


Cheers,

[psr]

Re: Engine Oils

Shiv18....Thanks for the detailed post and updates. The increase in FE could be because now you have oil to lubricate and seal the ring with bore,along with the beneficial effects of ZDDP....further the higher levels of Detergent help clean the internals,reducing friction, and most importantly, The Piston Ring Lands are also cleaned...this means the rings will be free of the gum formation and be able to seal better due to this.....Let us wait and observe some more.
Good Luck..

[muztariq]

Re: Engine Oils

[MENTION=32641]shv18[/MENTION] Nice updates there. I would recommend an engine flush treatment whenever you go for this oil change. It is usually not required, but in this case it would be much more beneficial. For sludged engines mechanics use something called seafoam in the US. I dont think anything of that sort is available here. I have seen cyclo flush treatment and Wurth Flush available in some places.

The fuel efficiency increment you are observing is due to better heat management and increased lubrication.

Secondly, there is no need for replacing engine oil so frequently, HDEOs are designed to take out a lot of carbon. They can turn completely black and still retain their detergency. If the present oil has not changed color to black, you can wait for around 1k kms. Why I say this is because it takes time for the additives to make a layer on the contact parts.

If you want the max benefit of this treatment that you did, clean all the filters, including the air filter and then use the fresh oil. What you cant see in oil is caught somewhere in the oil filters/mesh.

[sancreation]

Re: Engine Oils

Guys have anyone experienced clutch slipping at high speeds while using hero's (good for nothing oil ) on long trip my bikes gear slips from 5th gear to 4th all of a sudden...even though it is a mineral oil

sancreation


sancreation

[muztariq]

Re: Engine Oils

Guys have anyone experienced clutch slipping at high speeds while using hero's (good for nothing oil ) on long trip my bikes gear slips from 5th gear to 4th all of a sudden...even though it is a mineral oil
sancreation

To respond, two three things are required.

How old is your bike? Kms and Age of both bike and clutch.
How old is the current oil?
After how many kms continuous run does this happen?

If the clutch is old, it may start slipping with thin oils especially when it gets hot. If you have been using car related oils from long, the present oil may still cause slipping. If your present oil is a 10w30, you may use a 20w40 4t oil and this can be prevented.

[BloggingWheels]

Re: Engine Oils

Good that you got a bike to experiment and restore muztariq!
Those who have used Diesel engine oils on their bikes, esp Hero/Honda bikes where 10W30 is the 'recommended' grade - would love to have your experience shared on this thread.
Any great Diesel Engine oils in the 10W30, 10W40 grades?

[sancreation]

Re: Engine Oils

No bro i use normal company engine oil which is 10w30sj 4t...my bike is around 11months old...and had run around 7.5 on the odo...i always change the oil at 1200kms as it's a mineral oil and i also clean or replace the oil stainer filter at oil change interval every 1200kms.
The clutch slips on long trips around 200-300kms while riding on triple digit speeds i stop every 50kms to cool the engine for 15-20mints..but i never experienced clutch slipping during normal commuting..let's say around 15km to my office and home...

And thanks for replying on short basic :thumbup:

sancreation

[sancreation]

Re: Engine Oils

And my bike is a hero impulse

sancreation

[Honda_abhi]

Re: Engine Oils

No bro i use normal company engine oil which is 10w30sj 4t...my bike is around 11months old...and had run around 7.5 on the odo...i always change the oil at 1200kms as it's a mineral oil and i also clean or replace the oil stainer filter at oil change interval every 1200kms.
The clutch slips on long trips around 200-300kms while riding on triple digit speeds i stop every 50kms to cool the engine for 15-20mints..but i never experienced clutch slipping during normal commuting..let's say around 15km to my office and home...

And thanks for replying on short basic :thumbup:

sancreation

U are inviting trouble by using a 10W30 oil in a 150 cc bike like Hero impulse and traveling at triple digit speeds. The thinner oil is the culprit. Do u know that Bajaj recommends 20W50 oil for its 150 cc bikes?

I suggest that you go for a thicker engine oil. Mind it, that the warranty will be void if the service center comes to know that you have used a different oil. But then, nobody will be able to differentiate if the oil is 10W30 or 20W40 after the bike is run for 1000 kms.

[nadz11.ns]

Re: Engine Oils

U are inviting trouble by using a 10W30 oil in a 150 cc bike like Hero impulse and traveling at triple digit speeds. The thinner oil is the culprit. Do u know that Bajaj recommends 20W50 oil for its 150 cc bikes?

I suggest that you go for a thicker engine oil. Mind it, that the warranty will be void if the service center comes to know that you have used a different oil. But then, nobody will be able to differentiate if the oil is 10W30 or 20W40 after the bike is run for 1000 kms.

I would not recommend using oil grades that are not mentioned in the manual. Every manufacturer designs its engines as per its needs and selects the oil grade to compliment it. If Hero has mentioned using 10w30, better use that. Using 20w50 will make the engine very sluggish.
The amount of cc doesn't decide which oil grade to use.