Engine Oils

[Honda_abhi]

Re: Engine Oils

m gonna try 20w40 next to next service as currently using shell ax7 but somehow feeling engine is rough at abt 1800kms next trying 10w30 honda oil

i think weather is the culprit !

NO my friend... the weather is not the culprit. at about 1800 kms the oil is at the end of its life. As mineral 20W40 oils will last for around 2K kms. A 10W40 semisynthetic AX7 contains only 15% synthetic content. rest is mineral oil.


Try motul 30004T 20W40. Its a JASO certified oil. It will last for 500 kms more than shell AX5 20W40. This is my personal experience.

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The risk with using HDEOs is well documented in this thread. Just to clarify further, HDEOs are stronger and much better oil. May not be required by an average user. But for high revving engines, these can provide extra protection.

Harley recommends usage of diesel engine oils in case their oil is not available. Even they know the protective properties of these oils.

https://www.harley-davidson.com/en_U...dtopic001008-1

I have never heard of harley davidson manufacturing motorcycles in the 110,125 and 150cc categories. People on this forum are using HDEOs in bikes within this category. So I would like to know the whole and absolute truth about using HDEOs in this cc category.

OK. now that no users having first hand experience in using HDEOs want to come out with the "doodh ka doodh, pani ka pani"about the HDEOs.
I have some points to ponder about that are intriguing me for long about the HDEOs.

1) What makes the HDEOs inherently more beneficial in terms of protection?

2) IT is a world established fact that a thicker oil provides better protection at high temperatures. IS HDEO thicker than motorcycle oil? Hence better protection??
If yes, then does it provide better protection in cold starts? logically it cannot as thicker oil takes time to flow in the nooks and crannies of the engine and till then the damage is done.

3) Does a HDEO has a better additive package? I know it has a better detergent package. but detergents do not better lubrication at high temperatures. They just keep the engine clean. On second thoughts if the motorcycle engines are not equipped to handle high detergent concentrations then it can cause foaming which is harmful in the long run.

4) Are HDEOs made of ester base stock? The 300V range of Motul oils are made of ester base stocks. Ols made of Ester base stocks are inherently equipped to provide better protection at high temperatures by virtue of the Esters chemical properties. I can elaborate more on this subject. But thats a separate discussion/

[muztariq]

Re: Engine Oils

Quoted.. /

I have never heard of harley davidson manufacturing motorcycles in the 110,125 and 150cc categories. People on this forum are using HDEOs in bikes within this category. So I would like to know the whole and absolute truth about using HDEOs in this cc category.

I read it this way, when an oil can protect a 1000 cc engine or a 6000 cc truck engine, why cant it protect small engines which use XXw-40 grade oils?

OK. now that no users having first hand experience in using HDEOs want to come out with the "doodh ka doodh, pani ka pani"about the HDEOs.
I have some points to ponder about that are intriguing me for long about the HDEOs.

1) What makes the HDEOs inherently more beneficial in terms of protection? Additives! An engine can run without oil for 100s of kilometers.. if the last oil it was on had abundant supply of additives, which make a protective layer on the metal parts and prevent rubbing and heat generation. You can look at youtube videos on cars running without engine oils. Also, the base oil used in HDEOs is much better than the standard base oils used in mineral oil.

2) IT is a world established fact that a thicker oil provides better protection at high temperatures. IS HDEO thicker than motorcycle oil? Hence better protection??
If yes, then does it provide better protection in cold starts? logically it cannot as thicker oil takes time to flow in the nooks and crannies of the engine and till then the damage is done.
Not exactly thicker, but the extra additives make it more sticky. 15w40 grade HDEOs cant provide better 'cold' protection than 15w40 4T oils. There would be a marginal difference in both the oils in terms of cold starts, HDEOs lose here. When I first put HDEO in my 150cc Fazer, the engine didnt crank as it usually does, it took slightly more time, the heaviness of HDEO was clearly percievable, but subsequent starts the days after were as usual. This may mean that the additive package and heaviness makes a layer over the moving parts that the subsequent cold starts are equivalent to your normal 4t oil. So, cold starts are effected only the first time (this is my experience, no strong proof for this claim)

3) Does a HDEO has a better additive package? I know it has a better detergent package. but detergents do not better lubrication at high temperatures. They just keep the engine clean. On second thoughts if the motorcycle engines are not equipped to handle high detergent concentrations then it can cause foaming which is harmful in the long run.
Yes, it has better additive package. Yes, it also has better detergent package. Detergents do not benefit lubrication at high temperature, but at higher temperatures, the additives gets activated and protect the engine better. I read on Mobil FAQ section where someone asked - If the FS diesel oil from mobil is used in gasoline car will it protect better than FS gasoline oil from Mobil. The answere was something like this - FS Mobil Gasoline oil is the best oil formulated for your xyz gasoline engine. But, if you use the gasoline engine extensively and severly, the FS diesel oil would provide better protection than the FS gasoline oil.
If you want to go through that question again - Here is the link http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/universal-threads/4789-engine-oils-571.html

4) Are HDEOs made of ester base stock? The 300V range of Motul oils are made of ester base stocks. Ols made of Ester base stocks are inherently equipped to provide better protection at high temperatures by virtue of the Esters chemical properties. I can elaborate more on this subject. But thats a separate discussion
No, HDEOs are not made of ester base stocks, but there are HDEOs like Mobil Delvac 1, which is a 5w40 FS diesel engine oil. This oil can be from synthetic base stock. I dont know.

Now a question I would ask.. We use FS engine oil in our commuter motorbikes. These oils are designed for racing, where every second count. These oils have quite a low drag and actually have a low concentration of additives that makes the oil sticky. For example ZDDP orients itself in such a way that it forms a layer on the metal to protect it from damage. These oils would be having less of this sticky material as in racing every secong counts. For this to happen effectively, the racing oils would have very less additives and would protect by virtue of the strong oil film from the FS component. But, FS oils do not require a detergent. The race wont last a 3000 km which the normal commuter oil would go through in stop go traffic. Does that mean FS oil would have very poor detergency and in the long run, they would actually be detrimental to the engine rather than protective?

Here is the answere from Motul:
300V, 7100 or 5100?


Choose your oil depending on your use:
300V lubricants are specially formulated for racing applications. With its 300V range, Motul is in fact providing the general public with lubricants developed for racing teams: the products on sale at your retailer are the same as those used by teams on circuits or tracks.
These lubricants are sufficiently resistant to withstand very high temperatures, ensure the best possible lubrication and reduce friction... In short, they meet the very stringent requirements of racing.
7100, 5100 … are formulated for the greatest possible reliability in more ordinary use: starting your motorcycle every morning, riding on country roads for leisure or riding in town to work and back home in the evening, and having an oil change done as least often as possible.
The requirements for ordinary daily use of your motorcycle are entirely different from those of racing.
MOTUL 7100 and 5100 have been formulated so that you can follow the OEM's recommended oil change period without any trouble in normal daily use conditions.

https://www.motul.com/in/en/community/433

What I infer from the above reply from Motul: 300V is not for commuter bikes. Period!

Just calculated, I have completed 3 years on HDEOs, and not for a single day the oil was anything other than HDEOs.

[GOLDWING]

Re: Engine Oils

I have never heard of harley davidson manufacturing motorcycles in the 110,125 and 150cc categories. People on this forum are using HDEOs in bikes within this category. So I would like to know the whole and absolute truth about using HDEOs in this cc category.

I read it this way, when an oil can protect a 1000 cc engine or a 6000 cc truck engine, why cant it protect small engines which use XXw-40 grade oils?

OK. now that no users having first hand experience in using HDEOs want to come out with the "doodh ka doodh, pani ka pani"about the HDEOs.
I have some points to ponder about that are intriguing me for long about the HDEOs.

1) What makes the HDEOs inherently more beneficial in terms of protection? Additives! An engine can run without oil for 100s of kilometers.. if the last oil it was on had abundant supply of additives, which make a protective layer on the metal parts and prevent rubbing and heat generation. You can look at youtube videos on cars running without engine oils. Also, the base oil used in HDEOs is much better than the standard base oils used in mineral oil.

2) IT is a world established fact that a thicker oil provides better protection at high temperatures. IS HDEO thicker than motorcycle oil? Hence better protection??
If yes, then does it provide better protection in cold starts? logically it cannot as thicker oil takes time to flow in the nooks and crannies of the engine and till then the damage is done.
Not exactly thicker, but the extra additives make it more sticky. 15w40 grade HDEOs cant provide better 'cold' protection than 15w40 4T oils. There would be a marginal difference in both the oils in terms of cold starts, HDEOs lose here. When I first put HDEO in my 150cc Fazer, the engine didnt crank as it usually does, it took slightly more time, the heaviness of HDEO was clearly percievable, but subsequent starts the days after were as usual. This may mean that the additive package and heaviness makes a layer over the moving parts that the subsequent cold starts are equivalent to your normal 4t oil. So, cold starts are effected only the first time (this is my experience, no strong proof for this claim)

3) Does a HDEO has a better additive package? I know it has a better detergent package. but detergents do not better lubrication at high temperatures. They just keep the engine clean. On second thoughts if the motorcycle engines are not equipped to handle high detergent concentrations then it can cause foaming which is harmful in the long run.
Yes, it has better additive package. Yes, it also has better detergent package. Detergents do not benefit lubrication at high temperature, but at higher temperatures, the additives gets activated and protect the engine better. I read on Mobil FAQ section where someone asked - If the FS diesel oil from mobil is used in gasoline car will it protect better than FS gasoline oil from Mobil. The answere was something like this - FS Mobil Gasoline oil is the best oil formulated for your xyz gasoline engine. But, if you use the gasoline engine extensively and severly, the FS diesel oil would provide better protection than the FS gasoline oil.
If you want to go through that question again - Here is the link http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/universal-threads/4789-engine-oils-571.html

4) Are HDEOs made of ester base stock? The 300V range of Motul oils are made of ester base stocks. Ols made of Ester base stocks are inherently equipped to provide better protection at high temperatures by virtue of the Esters chemical properties. I can elaborate more on this subject. But thats a separate discussion
No, HDEOs are not made of ester base stocks, but there are HDEOs like Mobil Delvac 1, which is a 5w40 FS diesel engine oil. This oil can be from synthetic base stock. I dont know.

Now a question I would ask.. We use FS engine oil in our commuter motorbikes. These oils are designed for racing, where every second count. These oils have quite a low drag and actually have a low concentration of additives that makes the oil sticky. For example ZDDP orients itself in such a way that it forms a layer on the metal to protect it from damage. These oils would be having less of this sticky material as in racing every secong counts. For this to happen effectively, the racing oils would have very less additives and would protect by virtue of the strong oil film from the FS component. But, FS oils do not require a detergent. The race wont last a 3000 km which the normal commuter oil would go through in stop go traffic. Does that mean FS oil would have very poor detergency and in the long run, they would actually be detrimental to the engine rather than protective?

Here is the answere from Motul:
300V, 7100 or 5100?

https://www.motul.com/in/en/community/433

What I infer from the above reply from Motul: 300V is not for commuter bikes. Period!

Just calculated, I have completed 3 years on HDEOs, and not for a single day the oil was anything other than HDEOs.

All valid points. But do you remember that the designated hdeo machinery uses separate oil for its gearbox and clutch.
Now two things
1. hdeo oils always uses friction modifiers for better FE and emission requirements ! you know friction modifiers are bad for wet clutch ? IN A OIL SOUP, ARE YOU NOW, MATEY
2. GEAR OILS CONTAIN EP ( read extreme pressure ) additives without which GEARS MICROPITTING would be glaringly obvious !
DON'T BELEIVE ME ?
READ FAQs AT CASTROL AND MOBIL WEBSITE !
Now you don't want to be a person that says
" HEY , WHAT IF MY GEARBOX IS ALL MESSED UP > MY ENGINE IS READY TO GO ANOTHER 1 LACK MILES " do you ?

GOLDEN POINT - "HDEOs CONTAIN FRICTION MODIFIERS AND DO NOT CONTAIN EP ADDITIVES"

[asn39]

Re: Engine Oils

Friends there is this new brand i found on internet FUTROL oil india anybody aware ?

http://futrol.com/futrol.html

[GOLDWING]

Re: Engine Oils

Friends there is this new brand i found on internet FUTROL oil india anybody aware ?

Futrol

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Friends there is this new brand i found on internet FUTROL oil india anybody aware ?

http://futrol.com/futrol.html

[Honda_abhi]

Re: Engine Oils

[QUOTE=muztariq;1141716]

I read it this way, when an oil can protect a 1000 cc engine or a 6000 cc truck engine, why cant it protect small engines which use XXw-40 grade oils?

/QUOTE]

Even in motorcycle oils, we have different oils for 110cc and 150 cc bikes. And users are reluctant to use oils for 110 cc bikes in 150cc machines and vice versa. So there is absolutely no comparison between oils used to protect 1000cc - 6000cc machines and oils used to protect 110cc machines. so this point is redundant.

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Additives! An engine can run without oil for 100s of kilometers.. if the last oil it was on had abundant supply of additives, which make a protective layer on the metal parts and prevent rubbing and heat generation. You can look at youtube videos on cars running without engine oils. Also, the base oil used in HDEOs is much better than the standard base oils used in mineral oil.

Additives is a very vague term. There can be N number of additives. detergents for cleaning the engines. VII additives to alter the viscosities, Zinc phorphorous additives for added protection. etc. What additives make the HDEO better in terms of protection at high temperatures. I have already posted one link which shows the negative effects of extra ZDDP in HDEOS. Also we cannot compare car engines with motorcycle engines becoz cars have different transmission lubricating system.



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What I infer from the above reply from Motul: 300V is not for commuter bikes. Period!

I absolutely agree with you. 300V is not for commuter bikes. but people still use it without any negative effects posted on forums. So i want to know is HDEO for commuter bikes.?becoz people still use it without any negative effects posted on forums.

Either people are not aware of any minute negative effects on the bike which may aggravate at a long run or they do not want to admit about the negative effects. I would be researching the net thoroughly to get to the bottom of the matter.


ALSO A GOLDEN POINT - as mentioned by @GOLDWING - Motorcycle transmission uses the same oil which the engine uses. while HDEOs have separate transmission oil with EP properties. What he stated is right. Your engine might go on for 1 lac kms but u might end up changing your clutch plates 5 times within that 1 lac kms.


Also the viscosity index of Shell rimula R4x is 139, while the viscosity index of Shell advance AX7 is 172. These are not numbers coming from my imagination. This is quoted on the shell website in the msds & pds sheets of respective oils

AND This is a world established fact that lower the viscosity index of engine oil, lesser the protection at high temperatures. So it seems that contrary to belief HDEOs actually provide less protection at higher temperatures than MCEOs.

Atleast AX7 is better than shell rimula as per shell's own msds and pds sheets.

[GOLDWING]

Re: Engine Oils

/QUOTE]

Atleast AX7 is better than shell rimula as per shell's own msds and pds sheets.[/QUOTE] [MENTION=68044]Honda_abhi[/MENTION] , what you said above is also actually proven on many leading oil threads and automotive websites

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/QUOTE]

Atleast AX7 is better than shell rimula as per shell's own msds and pds sheets.[/QUOTE] [MENTION=68044]Honda_abhi[/MENTION] , what you said above is also actually proven on many leading oil threads and automotive websites

[muztariq]

Re: Engine Oils

@Honda_abhi and @GOLDWING

Very well explained. You should continue to use what you are using. Stay away from HDEOs and its discussions. Its contagious

[GOLDWING]

Re: Engine Oils

@Honda_abhi and @GOLDWING

Very well explained. You should continue to use what you are using. Stay away from HDEOs and its discussions. Its contagious

@muztariq I sense some unnecessary flaming here
Well,
Whatever happened to when you said " let's find out the truth about HDEOs "

[Divya Sharan]

Re: Engine Oils

Atleast AX7 is better than shell rimula as per shell's own msds and pds sheets.

I find both same. In fact vibes are reduced with Rimula compared to AX7. Just that I have to drain it in 1500 km compared to AX7's 2000-2200 km.

Sent from my phone. Kindly avoid it while riding.

[GOLDWING]

Re: Engine Oils

I find both same. In fact vibes are reduced with Rimula compared to AX7. Just that I have to drain it in 1500 km compared to AX7's 2000-2200 km.

Sent from my phone. Kindly avoid it while riding.

The reduced vibes are indeed due to more number of FRICTION MODIFIERS in the rimula compared to AX7.
Let me explain,
Due to more friction while using AX7 ( due to no FM Additives ), the atoms at the surface of the metals in contact kind of lock up,
When they separate due to increased momentum(provided by the throttle twist), the energy stored erstwhile during that short period of time is CONVERTED into forward motion and rest is lost by vibrations and heat ( also in part caused by the vibrations at inter-atomic level ) .
Rimula has a lot of FMs which lend it that NO-VIBRATIONS property !
Also may ( disputed ) cause frequent clutch overhauls ( if not time-to-time clutch slippage ).

[Divya Sharan]

Re: Engine Oils

The reduced vibes are indeed due to more number of FRICTION MODIFIERS in the rimula compared to AX7.
Let me explain,
Due to more friction while using AX7 ( due to no FM Additives ), the atoms at the surface of the metals in contact kind of lock up,
When they separate due to increased momentum(provided by the throttle twist), the energy stored erstwhile during that short period of time is CONVERTED into energy and rest is lost by vibrations and heat ( also in part caused by the vibrations at inter-atomic level ) .
Rimula has a lot of FMs which lend it that NO-VIBRATIONS property !
Also may ( disputed ) cause frequent clutch overhauls ( if not time-to-time clutch slippage ).

Agreed on the reduced vibrations thingy. Moreover, Rimula is 15w40 and AX7 is 10w40. That maybe helping too.
Clutch is fine. It has been 73+k km and I'm on stock clutch plates on a Karizma.

Been using Rimula/AX7 based on my requirements for almost 50k km now. No issues.

[muztariq]

Re: Engine Oils

@muztariq I sense some unnecessary flaming here
Well,
Whatever happened to when you said " let's find out the truth about HDEOs "

What is so flaming about it? And you are misquoting me, the truth about HDEOs is not what I am trying to find. It is [MENTION=68044]Honda_abhi[/MENTION] who wants to find it. I already experienced them.

Regarding my comment above, it is simple and straight - you go your way I go my way. There are two schools of thoughts when it comes to engine oils. One think the tradational mineral oil is the best. They have millions of vehicles proof with them. There are others who think Synthetic is the best. No one is wrong.

The believers would try to tell others what they believe in, they wont force their opinion on others. From the above discussion it is clear that you dont believe in HDEOs. Just stick to it, there is no harm in either option until someone proves it wrong.

Clutch slippage due to additives is reversible, so your comment that one would need 5 clutch replacements rather than 3 in 1 lakh kms is incorrect.

The moment HDEO user encounters clutch slippage, he should revert to normal 4t mineral oils. Once I added 100 ml of Total quartz 9000 FS Car engine oil. The motorbike was just slipping away, the engine braking and manouverability was lost. This is the impact of just 100 ml of a Molybdenum rich engine oil on wet clutch. But, it reversed completely after I removed that mix from the engine.

With 1.2 litres of pure HDEO, there is a percievable comfort and zero clutch slip even after 3 years of usage, when it start slippling, I would revert to normal 4t oil. Till that time I have an oil, which I can use for complete 3000 km service interval, wheres the normal 4t oils were showing harshness even after just 500 kms of usage. I am a rational believer in HDEOs not an ardent one. The moment it stops meeting my expectation, I am ready to revert.

[Honda_abhi]

Re: Engine Oils

@Honda_abhi and @GOLDWING

Very well explained. You should continue to use what you are using. Stay away from HDEOs and its discussions. Its contagious

I will definitely stay away from HDEOs because they are not meant for motorcycles in the first place. As far as discussions are concerned, the "aam junta" needs to know the truth about HDEOs.

We have countless discussions on NOT USING 20W40 oil when 10W30 is recommended. And on the other hand we are promoting an oil which is not even made for motorcycles.

Stay away from HDEOs - Definitely YES... stay away from HDEO discussions - Definitely NO.

[GOLDWING]

Re: Engine Oils

@Honda_abhi

Stay away from HDEOs - Definitely YES... stay away from HDEO discussions - Definitely NO.

VERY WELL PUT