Engine Oils

[abhichotu.abhi]

i read on internet that synthetic oils can be kept life long untill they are kept sealed..

[rakowli]

I have used Motul mineral 3000 4T Plus and Gulf 4T Pride semi-synthetic. Both these oils are good VFM. I have P150 2004 model ODO 37K kms. I like Gulf more as it has 3-4k kms of drain period. And as it is semi-synthetic it works very well in the bike.
Motul i haven't used semi-synthetic still but i have a strong feeling that it also will be very good based on my experience with Motul 3000 4T.

[antz.bin]

how is castrol activ extra 20w50 for p220

Castrol India - Activ Xtra - 20W-50

the website says it uses synthetic technology..

[gauravbalu]

how is castrol activ extra 20w50 for p220

Castrol India - Activ Xtra - 20W-50

the website says it uses synthetic technology..

that is what is used by pbk guys... and it sucks..

[krishnan6015]

Guys, while browsing today I came across this link. It actually tells how the clutch ,gears and engine works along with the engine oil. Since I actually found this useful to me , so thought of sharing with you guys.

Trizone - Clutch : Castrol Moto

P.S: This is not for advertising Castrol

[HydBiker]

(I posted this text in another thread. Thought it would be useful being in this thread too.)

Engine Flushing

Engine / Engine Oil Flushing is not really required unless you probably want to clean the internals of an old engine (especially for sludge) without opening it up. For switching between oils it isn't really needed. In fact, it might not be that a good thing to do. Here are my reasons:

1) Engine oils are compatible with each other. Everything is lubricating material although with different properties. Every oil comes with standard additives & stabilizers that make sure different types of oils, when mixed, are compatible with each other and there won't be any odd reaction or sort of.

2) Even when you drain the engine oil or flush the engine oil, there would be 200 to 400 ml of engine oil or engine oil + flushing agent left in the engine that will not come out of the engine unless you open it up. When you add new engine oil, it mixes with the existing oil in the engine.

Now, I'd better let the new fully synthetic engine oil mix with the burnt mineral oil than letting it mix with a flushing agent.

FYI - most bikes 150cc & above have 1.2 liter as engine oil capacity but only 1L as required refill. 200 ml stays in different compartments in the engine that are purpose built to store minute quantities of engine oil for lubrication during cold start - like at the timing chain tensioner, the rocker roller arms, the clutch case that I know of.

The Karizma's Engine oil capacity is 1.3L and refill is 900ml. The P200/220 won't be very different with oil remaining not just in the engine but also in the radiator. Pls check the manuals for correct details.

3) Various parts in the engine need the carbon deposits on them to be there for good functioning. Like the Valve heads need the carbon deposits for better lubrication. Various oil seals and gaps in the gaskets/packing have carbon deposits in them (in engines that have seen some life). Flushing agents clean all that away and that can cause problems.

4) Every engine oil has detergents whose purpose is to clean the engine internals. In fact, the top three functions of an engine oil are 1) Lubrication, 2) temperature control, 3) cleaning the internals. A good engine oil does its cleaning job well. Maintaining the engine with timely oil change with good oil is good enough to maintain the engine well.

Do you get a hint on why the Pulsars leak oil when Motul 300V is used? It uses Double Ester technology. The Esters are the best cleaning agents. In the process of cleaning they eat away the dirt and some engine packing material.

I haven't used the correct technical terms but tried to give the gist of it in my own words. Now you guys decide what you want to do.

[abhijeet080808]

^^ I agree with you. If you really want to clean any engine, strip it down and clean. Flushing agents are really not useful.

[HydBiker]

Moving the Discussion from Karizma Ownership Thread (this post http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/motorcyc...tml#post311500 and a few before that)

lol ya bro I have never faced this issue as long as I was using the HH oil prolly cause the oil I have put in is 10w40 while the new zmas are suppose to have 10w30.The tank gets heated up like its been kept under the sun for a while and the best part is it doesnt always happen.

same thing happens with my bike. The HH guys are putting the HH engine oil(made by BP).

Could it really be the oil?

It cannot be. A Fully Synth 10W40 oil does much better heat management than a mineral 10W30 oil and that too for Indian heat + traffic condition (revv, release, brake, revv, release, brake * n times) and for a 223cc air cooled engine when there is no air flowing.

^^ If the oil is too thick, it will have trouble flowing to all areas and thus provide insufficient cooling. Also thicker oil can increase friction and heat up the engine.

+1. A fully synthetic oil is better than the mineral oil or the HH oil..! This is out of personal experience.

That cannot hold very good when we speak about Multigrade oils.

A 10W30 and a 10W40 oil made from the same base would behave the same way in cold temperatures but the 10W40 oil retains better viscosity (than the 10W30 oil) to lubricate the engine internals at higher temperatures. In this case, at higher temperatures the 10W30 oil would not be able to stick to the metal walls as good as the 10W40 oil does, thereby reducing lubrication, reducing cooling effect, increasing friction, increasing temperature, ...

The oil grade is not an indication of its property at room temperature. For more information, there are many posts about this in the Engine oils thread. Especially the first few pages.

A slight difference in opinion here. The xW30 would retain higher viscosity than a xW40 oil and xW40 would retain higher viscosity that xW50 at higher temperatures. xW30 would be perhaps too viscous for some engines and xW50 would be too runny for some other engines.

while the viscosity is higher, the ability to stick to the metal walls is also higher. This might be suitable for some engines, but for most engines in India, xW30 would be too thick.

Prajwal

@Prajwal, with increase in temperature the viscosity of the liquid (here the Engine Oil) reduces. It is the motor oil viscosity modifier additive that produces a thickening effect at high temperatures. A 10W40 oil maintains viscosity better than a 10W30 oil... especially at higher temperatures. There is a measurement for this - Viscosity Index. Let us see what it means:

The viscosity index (V.I.) of an oil is a number that indicates the effect of temperature changes on the viscosity of the oil. A low V.I. signifies a relatively large change of viscosity with changes of temperature. In other words, the oil becomes extremely thin at high temperatures and extremely thick at low temperatures. On the other hand, a high V.I. signifies relatively little change in viscosity over a wide temperature range.

An ideal oil for most purposes is one that maintains a constant viscosity throughout temperature changes. The importance of the V.I. can be shown easily by considering automotive lubricants. An oil having a high V.I. resists excessive thickening when the engine is cold and, consequently, promotes rapid starting and prompt circulation; it resists excessive thinning when the motor is hot and thus provides full lubrication and prevents excessive oil consumption.

Your point may be correct for one engine. For another engine, at operating temperature, a 10W40 may be too thick to flow properly. This can too reduce cooling efficiency. Viscous friction can reduce engine efficiency too. Got my point? Everything depends on the engine. You can never make a general statement and say that 10W40 is better than 10W30 for all Indian bikes.

Of course what you say can be true for the Zma if and only if you have practically experienced it. I do not have a Zma and am speaking theoretically.

Not exactly Abhijeet. An Engine oil grade is not completely chosen based on engine internal clearances. 10W40 grade is the standard across the world in tropical climates. 10W30 & 5W30 are standard in cold climates. Also, my statement was not general to bikes but it was about the oil's character.

Discussing this beyond the oil's character and entering into the domain of why manufacturers recommend a certain grade will lead to unnecessary discussion that has happened earlier even in this thread.

[abhijeet080808]

Not exactly Abhijeet. An Engine oil grade is not completely chosen based on engine internal clearances.

In that case, why would you not use 10W50 oil in a bike where the recommended grade is 10W30? More the cooling, the better it should be, no?

[HydBiker]

^^^ these questions do come up when our manufacturers recommend just one grade engine oil. Anyways, please give some thought as to why the vehicle manuals the world over have the Engine Oil grade to Ambient Temperature charts as you can see in my album here Picasa Web Albums - Krishna Prasad Reddy - Engine Oil

One of them is of the Unicorn and one of them is of the Hayabusa. Some of them from Engine oil makers and technical papers. Check the last one from an old R6 manual.

The Vixion in Indonesia comes Recommended with two different grades of engine oils but when the R15 comes to India it comes recommended with only one grade.

[kaynmantis]

^^^ these questions do come up when our manufacturers recommend just one grade engine oil. Anyways, please give some thought as to why the vehicle manuals the world over have the Engine Oil grade to Ambient Temperature charts as you can see in my album here .....

One of them is of the Unicorn and one of them is of the Hayabusa. Some of them from Engine oil makers and technical papers. Check the last one from an old R6 manual.

The Vixion in Indonesia comes Recommended with two different grades of engine oils but when the R15 comes to India it comes recommended with only one grade.

Strictly speaking in laymen term. The ideal grade for optimum performance for engine will ALSO depend on your local temperature(climate).
Example: Hot climate requires thicker oil (w50). Cold climate requires thinner oil (w30).
There are also other variables like how the engine has been engineered like the tolerance level etc..

Though I'm no expert to give technical answers .

[abhijeet080808]

An engine needs a certain viscosity of oil at its operating temperature. When the operating temperature varies due to outside factors, the oil grade too has to be changed. Thus the manufacturer recommendations.

Coming back to the Zma, if the manufacturers recommends X grade oil in Y temperature range, we should use that. Only if our temperature range varies, we should change the oil grade.

Else, the oil viscosity in normal operating conditions will not be optimum and will harm the engine instead of causing any good.

Just as too little viscosity is bad, so is too much viscosity.

[HydBiker]

that is what I have been saying.

Whether the viscosity of a multigrade oil would be too much or too little both when the engine is cold and when the engine is very hot is not decided just by the engine but also by the climatic conditions. Hence, no engine would come with just one fixed oil grade.

Most manufacturers specify multiple engine oil grades for the engines but in India it is just one fixed recommendation. India is a vast country with really varied geography. They should specify the options for different climatic conditions.

Next, how'd we explain the HH's sudden shift from 20W40 oil to 10W30 oil for its entire range - new & old? The engine internals were not changed. Only the oil recommendation changed.

The HH Karizma came with 20W40 recommendation and then it switched to 10W30. Karizma's engine donor, the CRF230 has 10W40 oil recommended in its manual. What changed in the Engine or in India to prompt an oil grade recommendation change?

World wide the norm is that if the temperature in that region doesn't fall below 15 degree centigrade then the recommended oil grade is 20W40. If the temp doesn't fall below 5 degree centigrade then it is 10W40. My wild guess is that for 60% if India the temperature doesn't fall below 15 degrees at any point of the year. Then why 10W30 grade oil which is recommended for places where temperature doesn't go above 15 degree centigrade?

Such questions go unattended. We can argue about it taking sides but it is of no use.

Practically speaking, people have used 15W50 oil in a Karizma. Yes the bike moves smoother even at higher revvs and runs cooler. But the bike feels little lazy but that foes unnoticed many times. I believe that a xW50 oil is not needed in India for most Japanese engines. They do well with a xW40 oil.

Also, no two engine oils of the same SAE grade need to have the same viscosity at any given temperature. That varies in a noticeably wide margin.

See, it is getting dirtier as we dig deeper.

[abhijeet080808]

Next, how'd we explain the HH's sudden shift from 20W40 oil to 10W30 oil for its entire range - new & old? The engine internals were not changed. Only the oil recommendation changed.

While I mostly agree about what you have said, let me explain this. Zma 1st edition had much better pick up than the latter editions and it consumed more fuel too. To increase fuel efficiency, the ignition timings were retarded slightly across the midrange. This decreased the pick up and made the engine run a bit cooler. Maybe some other changes were incorporated too. But final result was that, the pep decreased and fuel efficiency increased. To help things further, a thinner grade oil was used too. This was possible because the engine now runs a bit less stressed then before. Thus, 10W30 instead of 10W40.

BTW, what is the grade for the ZMR?

[rahul9985]

Zma 1st edition had much better pick up than the latter editions and it consumed more fuel too.

+1
My old zma 225 was better than present zma's. Had better pickup. But it hardly used to give me 22-26kmpl while ripping.