Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

Indian Railways have imported Passenger bogeys from " Talgo ". These bogeys are fit to run at 180~200 Kmph and trials will soon be started to evaluate them. These are Spanish make and in the on going effort to increase train speeds these bogeys are bought for trial run and proving..
Note the suspension system and placement of wheels at the end of the bogey.

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

The first trial run of the high speed Talgo bogeys was done on 29-5-2016 Sunday. The test was conducted on the Moradabad to Bareilley track . There were 9 coaches consisting of 2 Executive class coaches,4 chair cars, a pantry coach ,a power car(generator coach), a last coach for staff and Equipments...
The Train was Pulled by a WDP4 and test speeds were between 110~115 Kmph. The speed was restricted due to trial run evaluation. The Talgo coaches are much lighter than conventional coaches and requires approximately 30% less energy to operate, compared to the conventional coaches. There will be 3~4 more trial runs on the same track, each time increasing the speed , after which the testing will be shifted.
The Initial impressions of the trial run is positive , in that, the train ran without much rocking and ride quality was smooth ,compared to the present bogeys.
The Second round of Testing will be on a faster track, ie., tracks that are more stable and meant for faster trains.
The likely Second run will be on Mathura to Palwal track and testing evaluation will be for 40 days....The speeds are likely to be increased at each stage till a safe 180 Kmph testing is done. This final evaluation will give the Indian Railways a more concrete idea of the Bogey's stability,and reliability along with track and traction requirements.

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

Hi Sir,

A question came in my mind that Talgo train has new set of suspension which is capable of high speed corners and straight line compare to our own. But our same engines are pulling them for testing so does that mean our engines are capable of doing high speed but only conventional coaches are not? If yes, I saw those engines has the same kinda suspension as coaches (if I'm not wrong) than how it is possible?

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

A salient point raised by you....here are the clarifications..

1. The Talgo coach is shorter in length only 13 meters against our traditional 22 meters coach length..This means through a curve the Talgo has little resistance to negotiate , whereas the longer 22 meter ICF coach will find it difficult to do so due to it's length and the curve it has go through in straight line. It is similar to a shorter wheel base car can turn at a smaller radius than a car with longer wheel base

2. The Talgo coach pneumatic suspension system is much more forgiving on the ups and downs of the track, and coupled with a shorter wheel base can go through curves effortlessly.

3.The Articulated suspension system also allows for the bogeys to tilt through curves and adjust to the curve angle , better than the stiffer straight line suspension of the older 22 meter bogeys.

4. The pneumatic suspension also means better absorption on track joint and uneven bounce , ensuring better wheel adhesion to the track resulting is better stability and braking performance.

The WDP4 has a shorter wheel to wheel distance which determines the curve shape it can negotiate. It is approximately 13.8 meter ...and so a much easier curve negotiation is possible...Some of the WDP4 units have been modified and fitted with the WDM 3 High Adhesion C-O-C setup ,and these have a wheel base of 11.8 meters only..So the Diesel Locos that IR has is mostly a Good curve negotiating design...it is the llonger wheel base Coaches which limits the train speed through a curve.
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The Talgo coaches use what is called Pendular suspension to identify it's tilting coach suspension system. Since the coaches are smaller in length, the suspension and wheels are positioned at the end of the bogey which adds to it's stability. Talgo started using this design as early as 1970 , and had made many improvements to it. The American Railroad " Amtrak " uses Talgo coaches in it's North American northwest services.

The Talgo's wheel arrangement is unlike the conventional system..here is an image to show the difference



The wheels are mounted in pairs but not joined by an axle and the bogies are shared between coaches rather than underneath individual coaches. This allows a railway car to take a turn at higher speed with less swaying. As the coaches are not mounted directly onto wheel bogies, the coaches are more easily insulated from track noise.

Since the introduction of the Talgo Pendular in 1980, the train tilts naturally inwards on curves allowing it to run faster on curves without causing discomfort to passengers. The carriage tilting system pivots around the top of the suspension columns, which has the effect of partially cancelling out the effects of the lateral acceleration when cornering.
Here is the picture of the coach as it is getting unloaded in India..Note the set of wheels at only one point.


The normal coach arrangement for Talgo as a train is shown as below,



Please note the first and last coaches alone have TWO SETS of wheel....

The Pendular system..

...

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

Having successfully completed the first phase of Trial Run, the Talgo coaches are being subjected to the second and final phase of Speed Run testing from the 9th of July for a period of 20 days....
The new testing stretch is Mathura to Phalwal .
On 9th July itself the train consisting of 9 coaches and a WDP4 Diesel Electric Loco was run at 120 Kmph continuously..
The speed will be progressively increased to test at 160 Kmph and then a few final runs at 180 Kmph.

The first implementation is expected to be the Delhi Mumbai sector to reduce the the present Rajdhani timing from 17 hrs.,at an average of 85 Kmph to 12 Hrs ,at an average of 125 Kmph.

A picture of Talgo coaches getting ready for the Speed Trial run...

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

On Wednesday 13th July 2016 the Talgo coach train had achieved 180 Kmph in it's second phase of tesing....The train consisting of 9 coaches was pulled by a indigenous made WDP 4 Diesel Electric Loco...
It covered the 86 kms distance in 39 minutes and set a new record for high speed trains in India..
The Train was run empty and even without the load of passengers was stable and ran through curves at the rated speed. The chief Pilot Mr.Sunil was all praise for both Loco and train..esp the tracks which had now proved to be capable of such higher speeds.
In the Next stage , the train is going to be loaded with Sand bags in each seat equivalent to a person's weight, thus loading the coaches to approximate weight in which it was supposed to travel.

The Third phase of testing will be in the Delhi to Mumbai sector of nearly 1,400 Kms.....The train will again run at 160~180 initially and then run at 220 Kmph to fully evaluate the Talgo coach capability and the track compliance....

Except for the Talgo coaches, The WDP 4 , the tracks and signaling system and support infra structure, all have been developed and implemented by IR.
It is indeed a proud day for Indian Railways and the RDSO for forging ahead with developments ,and making India competent force in Railways.

Here is a video of Gatiman Express at 160 Kmph, which is presently the fastest train in India and the Talgo train doing speed runs...

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.



hellp psr sir,

Utmost respect for your sharing of the knowledge on this thread.
Reading through this thread i couldn't help but imagine the character 'Sheldon' from the Big Bang Theory going on about Trains and Locomotives.


Sometime back there was news of Japanese Bullet train project between mumbai-ahemdabad or delhi-ahemdabad.... what became of it ?
No trials for that ?
Those speeds would belittle the 100-180 kph acheived by talgo coaches here ?!

cheers.

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

The first High speed train like the Japanese Bullet train was envisaged between Bangalore and Chennai...the Japanese and Chinese team of engineers came inspected the line and said that in many places the line must be straightened and curves made wider to accommodate the speed. Fencing of the Track was also to be done, since any life form crossing the track while train is speeding along will be a disaster that will cost many lives.Otherwise the whole track must be on an elevated platform to safe guard the train against track intrusion.This meant that re-routing the line and acquiring a larger part of land to make way for the curve were to be done at a huge cost , which did not justify the effort ie., revenue return....So the Govt and RDSO decided to speed up trains upto 200~220 Kmph by having selective high speed coaches with better track adhesion.....So came the Talgo coaches ..They are world famous for their trick design by which without straightening curves the coaches can run at higher speeds than conventional ones.
So the bullet train is kept in waiting for the time being and speeding of the trains is being attempted... What the IR and RDSO learn from operating this high speed service will decide on the future of IR....
We are now running the Gatiman Express at 160 Kmph with conventional coaches due to the lines being relaid with heavy duty rails and having wider curves with less joints...Achieving the 200 Kmph Speed itself is a challenge in India . Safety and Maintainability are of prime importance .

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

The Gatiman Express suffered it's first incidence of failing to keep time due to Loco WAP'5 Pentagraph being damaged by an object , when the train was cruising at 130 Kmph. Subsequently a WDG 3A was used to pull the Express till another WAP 5 was attached and the express went on as usual ...many hours behind schedule....Once again the Diesel Electric Locomotive proves to be more reliable ,when it comes to usage....A few years back when the entire Northern India suffered Main Grid Collapse, many trains were stranded due to power failure ...It was Diesel Locos which again was deployed to make the trains reach their destination, though late....
Diesel Electric Locos are proving as to why they are more reliable ,since they carry their own prime power plant...

A video of the incidence.....

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

The High Speed trial run of the Talgo coach had been successful touching rated 150 Kmph without mishap..This had opened the possibility of high speed trains in many sectors .
Some time back the Chinese and Japanese team had visited India for exploring the possibility of speeding up trains , and in particular the Chennai Bangalore sector, and found that the curves along the way made the Train to slow down frequently , thereby effectively reducing the average speed and increasing time. The present fastest time between Chennai and Bangalore of 360+ Kms is 4 hrs + by a Shatabdi......The Team advised for straightening the curves for high speed train implementation.

With the introduction of the Talgo coach the speed can be maintained at 130+ Kmph and so the travel time can be reduced to 3 Hrs...This is possible since the Talgo coaches are less in length plus the Pendular system helps to negotiate the curves without any difficulty at 120+ Kmph speeds .

The Talgo coaches presently undergoing trials in India are to be returned back to the Manufacturer and the actual implementation of high speed trains will take place later...

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

Sir, how does such high speed trains will manage to run in our normal tracks, I have seen the Talgo train compartment tilting to an angle to keep the train in line to the track bend. Doesnt that work , so why is the trains having to slow then, resurfacing the bent tracks will add more cost to the project , doesnt it ?

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

The trial runs were on our normal tracks. Initially it was thought that stiffer heavier rails with better metallurgy and cross section had to be used for the high speed train...The Talgo engineers assured our RDSO that one of the advantage of their coaches is that any standard rail with good track support can enable higher speed runs with their coaches.
The Talgo coach trick consists of Rigid All Aluminum chasis, Shorter wheel base enabling effortless curve negotiation , and Patented Pendular pneumatic suspension allowing coaches to swing inward rather than outside as in conventional coaches, thereby keeping CG of coach inside to allow better curve speeds. Since the coaches are also light in weight they don't require a stiffer rail..All these had added to the sustained high speed run of Talgo coaches on conventional rail....
Looks like the Chennai to Bangalore track may be tried for regular train services soon ..cutting down travel time to just 3 hrs....

Now the problem of stray cattle and jay walkers on track must be dealt with more stringent way, since a train traveling at 150 Kmph will cover longer distance in shorter time and judgement while crossing track had to be re- learned for all animals as the train will hit with greater velocity ...

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

On Saturday 10th Sept 2016, The Talgo test run between Delhi and Mumbai was successfully completed . The run was to check if Talgo can be run at higher speeds of 150 Kmph to reduce Travel Time. For most part of the journey the Train was run at 150 Kmph (except, crossings and joints) and covered the 1,384 Kms between Delhi to Mumbai in 11 hrs 48 minutes , thereby proving that an Under 12 hrs journey for the distance can be done with Talgo coaches. This cuts the Present Rajdhani time by 4 hrs, and thus will be the fastest train in India when introduced in future.

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

It would be a remarkable feat in the history of Indian railways