Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

PSR Sir, I read the thread's initial 7 pages (by 20 posts/ page layout) today, including the electric engine info and I'm amazed at the level of knowledge you have regarding this topic, and all sub topics (electricity, traction, etc.) regarding it. I had some queries:

1. Is it possible to have a Dual Energy Source Railway Engine (Diesel & Electricity)? I mean, a long engine which has all the diesel engine components in place, plus a pantograph, and the regular electric engine components too?
Or in simple words, is it possible to cheaply modify the design of an existing diesel engine, to make a Diesel+electric one?

2. I have heard that this 25,000 volts High Tension wire above the trains is dangerous, as its high tension and catches a person from few feet away too.
I saw a video on youtube, whereby a guy who was near the wire, but didn't even touch the wire, was electrocuted and it seemed like a huge explosion in itself.

My question is, for the common 25Kv line, what is the range of high tension around the wire? How much distance far away is ok?
And, What advice would you give to people who travel on rail roofs? Those who use mobiles while doing so? Those who carry objects like umbrellas, poles, brooms, etc. with them on the roof?

3. A student of mine in the Environmental Studies class said that due to high tension current in rains, some 4 people died in Mumbai, merely because it was raining and they were near the engine, or something. I think water can just conduct electricity, I don't think rain drops can carry electricity with them.
My question is, did something like that really happen? I couldn't trace it over internet.

4. Why are there two inter-attached wires above the train lines and not just one wire?

Again, Thank you sir, for sharing all this info and having this thread. Its one of the most useful threads in the Coffee Lounge Section.

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

Thanks for reading the posts and here are the clarifications.

1. Technically it is possible to have a Diesel and Separate Electric traction possibility, but is not a viable solution . The cost of such a Loco will not be justifiable, since the Diesel Electric is a more efficient form of Locomotive compared to the Electric Loco...I had given facts and figures for this which you will come across as you continue to read the posts.

2. A 25 KV line is always dangerous to get near. The distance to which it can Arc and pass Electric current is dependent on many factors like relative humidity, line capacity, ionization around the cable,and the conductive medium's relative conductivity.....as for people traveling on top of the train , if there are no overhead lines they are safe .... otherwise they are trying to be fried humans. All Locos now carry a warning to this effect.

3. Water is a conductor of Electricity and shock is possible if the stream of water is continuous without break. There is enough precaution taken in the Pentagraph design to take care of such high voltage under wet condition .

4. The two wires are (a) one for Carrying the High Voltage and (b) one called Catenary wire to Support the Energized Conductor. You will see there are inter connecting pieces between the TWO Vertically called Dropper wire ,and it is there to maintain the Wire Tension and prevent the Energized wire from sagging...

Here is an image to explain this ...

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

Yes sir, I read that. Diesel is 45-65% efficient, & Electricity is 90% efficient, but considering that electricity is made from coal, hydal projects, etc. its efficiency is related to the efficiency of extracting energy via steam method.

Thanks for the info sir, so the safe distance depends a lot on situation & climate...

Yes... I noticed that the railways has put up "Caution. 25000 volts" boards/ messages on the either ends of the train bogies, & on the station foot bridge's railings on the railways station. The overhead foot bridges' railings & the bogie ends themselves don't have the current, but the Railway/ government is trying to keep people away from the overhead wires.
Although, it did get me confused when I was a kid, because I was scared of touching the railing, and I used to tell my dad the same too.

I searched a bit and found two opposite examples on youtube. This one shows a guy who escaped death because he was not in ground's contact, just like birds I guess:

Ranchi Man Halts Train Services Near Chennai - YouTube


And this one is the unlucky one, who was creating trouble (WEAK HEARTED PEOPLE, DON'T OPEN THE BELOW LINK):

WTF Train Electrocution!!!! - YouTube


Hmm... Very clear now. Thank you so much sir.

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.



High reach pantograph: world record set by Stone India

KOLKATA, India -- The new generation pantograph developed by Stone India for the Indian Railways allows an increase in the highest of the overhead wires (catenary height) from the standard 6 meters to 7.5 meters-setting the world record for the High Reach pantograph for highest catenary for electric locomotives.

Such a device is suitable for locomotives to be used for running double-stack containers as envisaged in the upcoming dedicated freight corridors being implemented by Indian Railways.
This will also enable Indian Railways to introduce double-decker passenger trains in high density suburban passenger route. The pantographs have already been commissioned successfully after extensive test by Indian Railways.

Stone India's innovation makes Indian Railway achieve this unprecedented feat to become the only railway in the world to run a train under a 7.5 meter-high contact wire.

The new-design world record pantograph , developed completely in-house, has many other added features, such as twin catenary height of 6 & 7.5 meters, auto upward-force adjustment to improve effective current collection in adverse conditions, thereby enabling reduction in energy consumption and allowing trains to run at much higher speeds.

The new design overcomes the traditional challenge of balancing a high-reach pantograph in double-stack container trains moving at a high speed in adverse wind conditions, hitherto faced by all global suppliers of pantographs.

Stone India Ltd has not only successfully designed and developed the improved pantograph in a record time but did it completely indigenously using its own expertise and with its own R&D setup using cutting edge simulation tools. The patented new series named as "Omniversal Intelipanto" has been supplied when other multinational companies failed to do so before commencement of the trial by Indian Railway in East Coast Railways which was witnessed by Japanese technical delegation.

The success of this design will not only help saving foreign currency but will benefit Indian Railways by enabling locomotives to run on electricity instead of costly diesel. Additionally this opens up the possibility of Indian Railways even running double-decker passenger trains in high density passenger routes through further increase of catenary height.

The Company plans to adopt this design in all its pantograph and plans to export such world record pantographs to countries, which propose to use electric traction for running double-stack container trains as well as double-decker passenger trains.

Stone India Ltd, a Kolkata based company, which has been serving Indian Railways for more than 77 years has pioneered the introduction of several systems to Indian Railways, including pantographs, used by the electric locomotives and EMUs. So far all these introductions have been through technical collaborations with overseas companies.

This marks the beginning of Stone India's major self-initiative & achievement to arrive at breakthrough innovative solutions for customers, which are generally fraught with skepticism of unachievable goals.

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

was watching a show on TV, Mega Movers/moves (don't remember the exact name). It was on Disc Sc, I guess. That episode was all about moving 2 locomotives from Canada to Britain. Transatlantic journey for 2 huge locos. All the while I was glued and was remembering you, [MENTION=32286]psr[/MENTION] sir

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

[MENTION=32286]psr[/MENTION] : Sir, this got me interested. Its amazing that a world record has been made by an Indian firm. The way I think, it is definitely beneficial because the added pole height might be the only big investment to this. Otherwise it will help a lot, in carrying more loads with same number of wagon carriages below them, on Electric Engines.

And double decker passenger trains are the need of the hour. The population is increasing and even today, is huge. And this means the passengers face problems during reservation, sometimes even 2 months in advance doesn't get the job done. And don't even mention tortures of the festive season reservation.... (!).


This is a snap of the double-decker setup I took while I was on my Industrial Tour to Pune, with my students... Right then obviously, this was running on Diesel Engine:




But sir, the question is, is it safe enough in rains? Because the conventional pantograph has an acute arch, this one seems more like standing, and maybe water could flow down to the metal frame of the engine?
How did the developers bypass this, as they claim it to be safe?

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

The Pantograph is isolated ie., Insulated where it is bolted on to to the Top of the Locomotive... Enough and more precautions have been taken to keep Good Electrical Insulation , to have Absolute safety....The whole Pantograph is assembled on to an insulated frame ,in a way that any amount of water will not stagnate to form a conductive line. The Pantograph and the High Tension conductive wires and held Firm on Insulators ON TOP OF LOCO , at a distance from the Loco Frame...Here is a link which has a picture and explanation of various working parts and areas of an Electric Loco..

Electric Locomotive Glossary

Here is the rough picture to explain the same...



Regarding stacking of containers it is done to increase density of Load carry and the only precaution the Loco Pilot has to take is never to accelerate or decelerate rapidly ie., emergency braking, and not to exceed speed esp., through curves....Otherwise the Containers are interlocked and stacked properly.
Stacked containers is the way forward now for increasing profitability,speed of delivery , in Railways....

Here is a Picture of a double Decker freight train through a highly Challenging terrain...

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

Yes sir, got your point. Although such insulation is amazing, considering that such high voltage current can pass through even air.

After seeing your post, I was reminded of a pic, and I examined the below attached pic that I took during the same Industrial Tour, and I could easily relate to the insulated material, which I also happened to see on some overhead high tension wires, specially at their poles:





One last question: Is it possible for such high voltage current to pass through Camera Flash?

I know it sounds really weird, but I came across this link an year or so ago: Can ELECTRICITY pass through Flash light of the Digital camera to your body? - Facts Analysis | Technology
My estimation is that probably a boy climbed up a railway carriage to snap a photo.... and the news was misrepresented due to lack of knowledge.

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

You are right in the understanding of the insulators isolating the Pentagraph, and it's routing.
The News of Camera Flash attracting HV is just for news purpose only....To give you an idea of the AC Arc requirement, consider the Spark plug in our Motorcycle or 4 wheeler.. It requires between 12~15 Kilo Volts for the spark to happen for a gap of 0.6mm approximately...Once the arc is established , then 6 kv will be enough to sustain it. I had on a previous post had explained how various parameters affect the ARC voltage.....

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

Indian Railways is now planning to speed up trains in general for handling increased passenger and goods movement . As a first effort stacked containers to improve load density for same wagon size is implemented. This reduces in Half the freight charges while Doubling the movement. Improved Diesel Locomotives with higher Power , typically WDG5 with 5,500 HP have completed trial and safety requirements and are soon to be seen on the tracks...
To improve Load carrying capacity and to increase speed of trains, special high strength rails in the 5 feet 6 inches spacing(broad gauge) are undergoing trials . Support Concrete ballasts will be spaced much closer to offer better support and higher rigidity .
For maintenance of tracks, Automated laying and aligning equipments have been imported and are undergoing extensive testing in real time. To offer better rigidity,safety and cleanliness of passenger coaches , these are now made out of Stainless Steel ,and few are already in service..
The goal is to speed up tracks and trains to 150~160 Kmph and in 3 years touch 200Kmph
Indian Railways is planning on having Locos with 8,000 to 9,000 HP for high speed and load movement of both Goods and SS passenger coaches

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

That is good news to a layman like me, who loves trains and doesn't know the technical aspects at all. To me, the best thing about a train is that sound it makes (one you hear from inside the boggie) and well the whole train. Very rarely does one ponder to think about the tech that has gone inside.
I hope, I'd be travelling at 150+ kmph soon.

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

Some Rajdhanis are already doing 150 Kmph in selected lines(wherever the rails and infrastructure supports) , and in such routes the effort is to push to 160 Kmph and then to 180 in steps...It is the Passenger safety that is of primary concern .....the Track noise that you love will also be gone since welded rails are already in place/being implemented in most High Speed Tracks ...The Indian Railway is already into Pre-Fabricated rails with Concrete sleepers ,which it can lay, in place of damaged ones, or in the Formation of New Lines...



For higher speeds Non Ballast systems of rail is being explored...This will improve maintenance ,stability of tracks, and least maintenance...There are no more ballast to re-cycle or re-pack on regular basis....

----consecutive posts auto-merged-----

The Latest Track Laying Equipments with Indian Railways....Most of these are supplied by BEML....



Bhopal Shatabdi doing 150 Kmph with a WAP-3 Loco...and it was in 2009...

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

A new innovation for Rail Track Stress Management is now attempted by a Company Called VORTOK. The system actually keeps the base of track up from the bed/ballast through a roller which directly supports the rail UNDER the main load bearing surface ...



and here is a Video on how it is used...

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

New Developments in Electric Locos have been put into Service ,on the Same lines of the Diesel Locos....

WAP-7 Locos now come with Hotel Load management which will eliminate Generator Coach which used to supply additional power to Pantry cars and Passenger coaches...This had greatly reduced the operating cost of the Passenger Railway traffic. With the Generator Coach the cost of electricity used to be Rs.8~9 per unit. With the new Hotel Load supply by WAP-7 Locos the cost is reduced to Rs.4/- per unit, and NO additional Generator coach is required. Instead a Passenger coach can be attached and revenue per train is increased. The New WAP-7 supplies 3 phase AC , thereby supports greater and efficient power management

A 6000 HP Loco with WAG-9i tag has been introduced...Like the WDP4B these Goods pulling Locos have IGBT TCC. In Fact the advanced version of the WDP series 32 bit IGBT controller has been implemented in to the WAG-9i for greater effieciency . This ensures better traction force, less heat and energy loss ,and most important "Creep Control". The indigenous design had been put to use in many of the Diesel and Electric Loco Traction Control.

Following the Development of the WDP-4 B&D , WAG-9 with Air Conditioned Cab had been developed and put in Service. It has both Heater and Cold Air Blowers.

More Advancement in the Indian Railways are planned in future....

Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

The recent Rajdhani Express accident involved the Stainless Steel coaches made in India. Some of the Pictures of the underside of Wagon clearly shows the DISK BRAKES....Investigators at Site have observed that the death toll had been minimal due to the latest coaches being superior in build and safety...None of the coaches had collapsed in middle or had been damaged..


Let us look at some of the improvements that HAD BEEN IMPLEMENTED, and is on trial now , for Safety and Betterment of the passenger coaches..

The Bio-Toilet which was mentioned a few pages back is NOW being manufactured and Implemented ...



Providing Internet Connectivity is the next goal of IR in Passenger coaches...