I try my best to keep out, but sorry I couldn't. I am sure this is the very last post in this thread so will keep it in detail.

@ stefanm

I wonder you are at the heights of your imagination, its really makes me laugh.

Who are you? Do we know each other? or what do you know about me and my biking skills??

Okay let me blow my own trumpet even if its OT, I am very closely related to most of the Indian commercial blogs about bikes and have tested many Indian bikes before launch and written reviews about them. Even this morning I was out for a new launch at XXMXXX.I did get some discounts from Joel for his modds for this reason, but in-turn I am feeling very very sorry to make him too upset.

You cannot simply say the mistake is on my end, coz the entire job was completed in Banglore at Joel's workshop.

My initial complaint was about Joel's ECU that was, I had to wait for over 60-90Secs at 3-4K RPM during a cold start. I work for a corporate and I have to stand still in the Parking lot waiting until the RPM comes normal. I have rush before my friends, to start my bike to accompany them. I have even seen securities and other employees laughing at me. It was pain in the back

With this statement you may say, I am not fit for a Mod. But I did introduce myself in a very detailed email before buying these stuff. All that was replied to me was "This setup will perform much more than Stock and even Daytona's and is as reliable as stock and no compromises anywhere.
I wasn't informed about the cold start idling even while fitting the ECU in his workshop at Bangalore nor anywhere in XBHP.

Do you think I start the bike for a race everyday? to patiently wait for all the tech gizmos mentioned by you to happen?

I tried posting this ECU issue here and everyone out here including Joel simply said I was ignorant (In-directly), Just like the way you posted above and simply closed the issue.

Never mind, You know what I did to fix the issue??

I called Race Dynamics directly after multiple attempts I reached the correct personnel there and they told me that this issue can be corrected easily and they wanted to lay hands on the ECU unit to get this fixed. Since I was already in touch with shahdupeshkhan I told him the same and he took the effort of correcting the parameters and now the idling is not more than 5Secs. (Both Race dynamics and shahdupeshkhan explained me the issue in detail but I partially remember the Jargon and logical corrections that were made to ECU parameters, so I do not want to get deep in here) Boon was there to witness the same.

Moreover the Bike was running rich before. After all the corrections made to the ECU, the Exhaust gas was carefully examined by shahdupeshkhan in front of my eyes to ensure the Bike runs with correct fueling neither Rich nor Lean and now the bike runs more miles than before, never dipped below 40Kmpl.

You have mentioned "near optimum temperature, oil temp, correct warm up, correct oil and coolant levels, changing of gaskets, bolts tightened to the correct torque and correct installation of parts..." etc etc, Even without seeing the situation how can you blindly predict. Let me be clear all the aspects mentioned by you were perfect in my bike before the Engine Seizure and the 2nd time the bike was out of Yamaha service that was done in front of me(Coz I am not an everyday customer to them) and I don't want to comment on other's engine seizures as they know it themselves.

stefanm I kindly request you to refrain from commenting on other's skills. Lets keep this thread informative. You may have loads of knowledge about automobiles, but I can definitely say the 165CC Unit failed on me twice, when all the other parameters were just perfect.

One thing I noticed this thread lacks clarity totally and simply up-sell.

The Ugly truth, is this thread misses out a lot of issues with these modds, like for instance, Did the camshaft decompressor explanation ever come out till I pointed out in this thread?

The Mod camshaft will not crankup the engine at the first attempt or sometimes even with multiple attempts. There are many active participants in this thread who have already reverted back to stock cam. I do not want to point out as they themselves do not want to express this.

Its explained, that a Race Cam will not have the Decomp unit, But in contrast the Daytona Race cam has the decomp lever in it and costs almost the same. (+500rs thats it)

Did anyone notice, its informed that the R15 stock block costs 7800 almost, Which is totally incorrect, did anyone make an attempt to correct it.

Find the image below, All Yamaha branded products costs very very cheaper than the modds.

The Stock Diasil cylinder with the Forged Piston with gaskets etc never exceeds 5500 including VAT and really I do not want to dig up the source where this 165CC block comes from.






Like I said I did a complete research on these modds and I have loads to type about these Modds that are encouraged here. But I just want to leave this thread here, so I apologize if there is anything wrong in the way I have expressed my views.

I am not sure why these issues are not taken as feedback and worked on.

@ abhimanyu31

To add fuel , the 1992/93 CBR250RR redlines at 19,000RPM outboard from factory and 1994 Yamaha FZR250 redlines at 18,500RPM.

And nothing Personal Man, its just about my Bike and the experience. You post your thoughts based on your Genuine experience that you got and I post with mine that is all and I know its just a bike, that we are talking about.

I fixed my bike in June and I never came out with my views until this thread, coz you mirror my thoughts "this is not the end of the world nor is it the question on which the fate of the nation rest"

Anyways will try my best to follow this from now and log off from this thread to remain observatory.


Regarding the 158CC, I got the Piston size as approx 59mm instead of 60mm, But I tried twice measuring the piston with a vernier but still got the same. Not too sure at this moment as I do not have the vernier with me currently to take a pic.

Thanks everyone.

Someone's On-a-Roll.

And in all seriousness, I learnt a lot from this conversation between these knowledgeable people. A productive conversation hopefully for both parties.

^^ +1..this discussion has taught me many technical aspects, which I never knew before. This will really help those how are interested in technical details of a bike's engine.We all xbhpians are lucky to have these knowledgeable people here.

@Harish - Another technical gyaan for you.
The daytona camshaft has only about 0.1mm extra lobe lift and retains the same base circle as the standard grind.
Mine has a different base circle with an aggressive profile ramp and a much higher lift over the daytona cam. A decomp lever does not suit such a profile and will remain partly engaged and hamper throttle response and performance.
Please understand the purpose of a component before such remarks.
I will leave your arguments to you since you have your own baggage to carry on your own. Please go ahead with your plans. You have conquered the subject quite well.

I'd have appreciated if you mentioned anything technical and logical. I'm still waiting on your 165cc and 170cc clarity! Do mention your new bore dia, since its unanswered since 2 pages now.

P.S - I have sent you my address long ago, please return my old block. Or deposit the same with Boon and he will send it across or pick when I meet him.

@HarishK - It is really incomprehensible as why you are persisting in arguments which have no direct bearing on the issues at hand. My question to Joel was very simple, "Is it possible that a 'Internal Combustion' Engine of 170 cc to achieve and sustain such high rpm with traditional valve setup?". You go about pointing the R6 and the FZR250/ CBR250. What is it that you are trying to prove? That you have more gyaan than all of us. Ok, given that you have more gyan than all of us. For your kind information (and this is being put very inelegantly because finally you have succeeded in irritating me), FZR250/ CBR250 were made while you were still in your nappies. And also know that I have tested/ridden the FZR250 substantially on the streets and race tracks of U.K. While it does reach 17,000 rpm, it CANNOT sustain it for extended periods of time. There are some crucial differences in the way that engine has been made. First of all because it is a 4 cylinder engine where every cylinder has a cubic capacity of approx 62cc. This is very important factor in a normally aspirated engine as the small capacity is easier to fill with fresh charge at extremely high rpm where valve open duration is extremely extremely short. There is a flow limit wall that is reached when the cylinder's cubic capacity is increased. The other crucial difference is the way in which that valve train has been designed. The cam shafts (yes it is a DOHC) sits directly on the valves with the nodes directly actuating the valves and has no rocker arms. Both these bikes (FZR250/CBR250) along with VFR250, where show pieces of their respective companies for their technical prowess, just as the NR750. How does your pointing out the R6, CBR 250 or FZR 250 prove or justify your perception that I said you claimed your bike revs till 18,500 rpm.

HarishK, I work with some of the country's finest lawyers and counsels. I have seen them at their best in courts including the Apex court. And I will give you a piece of advice that I have learned from them i.e. "Do not argue any more or any less than what is required to prove your point. After you have made your arguments leave it to the judge (in this case other xbhp members) to decided if there is any merit in your case". People are intelligent enough to know what is right and wrong. By arguing sundry and all you are just making things worst for your self.

Oh, forgot to add, even with the mod camshaft, my bike has never failed to crackup with the first crank. This is true even now when I am not riding my bike due to a medical condition, but I started my bike after 10 days and viola it starts on the first crank...

It is sad that this discussion has turned into a such a murky and ugly one with bitter feelings. It could have such a lot more by having been restricted to technical aspects of world of performance parts rather than pointing fingers at each other.

P.S. My last post on this thread.

@harish - thanks a lot for your posts . excellent thread

This thread is simply irresistible. Sorry for coming back guys!!!

@abhimanyu31


Lets straighten this out, This is what your question was in the first place and I had to point R6, CBR 250RR etc to show you without the desmodromic valve arrangement these bike do well over 17K RPM and your above statement is wrong as simple as that. Simply visit,

Desmodromic valve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please use the Jargons that you know at the correct space.

Seriously not sure how you guys blindly comment on Yamaha.

So you have ridden the FZR250 and identified this issue??? Bravo!!!

You should have reported this to Yamaha immediately. Not sure when some responsible OEM Official will look into these imaginary claims.

Practically for a lay man, 17,000RPM is well within the Redline of FZR250, Keeping the throttle steady at 17K RPM for bikes like CBR 250RR and FZR250 is just 80% percent of the throttle, just like a 8K to 8.5K cruise in the R15.



Got this pic from one of my pals in Indonesia. I too questioned your 17K myth to him and his reply was one word "Bullsh*t" . I can give an intro to him in FB if you like. He used to cruise at around 16-17K RPM for hours on highways in his CBR250 and now due to lack of spares it is scrapped in his workshop.

When its claimed that a Joeled R15 can survive over redline (over 10.5K) without any issues why not a stock Honda CBR or a Stock Yamaha run over 17K RPM which is well below the redline.

Now still if you have a load of jargon and explanation on this, kindly open up a new thread I will post the things I know.

@ Joel

Well it really hurts me somewhere (Above not below ).

I understood why my views are not taken as feedback instead you just bounce back that you are correct and you give loads of technical explanations which most users do not understand (including me, until I do a research)

May the words are from HarishK, an everyday commuter??? if a tuner like Haen or Traxxas modifier etc speak out then will it be taken as a Feedback?

Well I did get in touch with some world famous Yamaha LC engine tuners for their advice to correct my bike in the First place. I started to look outside you for help, just when I understood you never listen to me (as a Customer).

Coming to the ECU Idle wait time issue all your explanations were just beating around the bush and I was able to fix the issue myself, Race Dynamics simply did not agree with the stuff that you posted in XBHP. They said its just a logical setting and can be modified as desired,
You could have done it for me, but your response was that the ECU is working as designed and it turned out to be like I was ignorant to use your ECU. (+ the comments from the Fan club out there)

Coming to the cam issue,

I know you know in and out about R15's cam, I completely agree race cams will not have Decompression unit, in order not lose sudden throttle that too in a very little margin. But thats okay for a race track.

But for an everyday street setup dont you think its a must to have the decompression unit on the cam and you also know the fact that R15 has a 3.5Amps battery and not a kicker as like the Vixion.

Hope you missed this thread, Follow this one,

Making a Decompression Hole on Aftermarket Camshaft | YamahaT135.COM

You can attach a decomp unit and upto my knowledge After market high Lift cams can be ordered with decomp hole, anywhere in the East.

I am in the process of modding your cam with the guidance from Traxxas modifier and will update this thread on how it works.

Try doing this to your customers and they will be very very happy, coz most of them are every day Street bikers and want not compromises in starting the bike. Its a bit tedious job needs more accuracy but should be a cake walk for you.

There MAY BE slight compression leak in higher Gears. But that is how every stock bike is sold worldwide.Moreover the performance downgrade is very minimal and will not at all be noticeable in streets.

shahdupeshkhan is with his exams currently and I wish he could pitch in here very soon and give some more clarity on the 170CC setup.

Hope this is Knowledgeable.

PS: I honestly do not have your address, will go with option # 2. Boon is quite busy today and I had left the seized bore at our mutual friends place very closer to his house. He can collect it at his convenience and I had also paid him for the shipping too. Thanks again for your valuable help.

@Harish - Guess you have achieved your goal. All the best!
Your intentions are well sorted, I see.
I'm out of this discussion as it will only get dragged to no end.

^^^ +1, all the best HarishK, no hard feelings or bitter ones at that. Sincerely, hope for the best in your future endeavors. I too am out of here.

@ Joel and @ abhimanyu31

Thanks Guys.

@EVERYONE:

Thanks for not getting my thread locked!

@HarishK: Abhimanyu did mention about the Desmodromic valve technology In fact, he was just trying to know if there's any other "way"(read technology) that could make this high-RPM revving possible for a particular kind of engine. That's all

Also, one more suggestion for you:
Loosing compression and yet adding CC might make the engine smooth, but then there wont be much increase in the performance. Remember it's just 5cc difference over the 165cc bore. And, have you modified the combustion chamber? If yes, then how? Where did you add/remove metal? And, could you also tell us how much(in terms of cc) metal you have removed/added? In that way, we could find the current Compression Ratio, some useful info for all of us here.

list of enhancements done to harishs r15.

dear friends...

MY SINCEREST APOLOGIES FOR THE DELAY I WAS HELD UP WITH MY MEDICAL POST GRADUATE EXAMS

read through the thread found it very interesting.nice to see so much passion among the members in aspects relating to biking.

this is my 10th year into bike mods..and it has been a rather lucky year
i met my good friend HARISH A COUPLE OF MONTHS BACK when he brought me his pimped up r15 done by yours truly JOEL.I HAD A BRIEF RIDE...
the first thing apparent to me was the high compression that required correction,and engine knocking in 5th and 6th gears..which obviously as most of you know,is not good for the engine in the long run.

the aftermarket ecu from race dynamics was giving very rich fueling..and even after the key was removed from the ignition the fuel pump motor would keep getting on and off throughout the night.i updated Harish and HE PROMPTLY LEFT HIS BIKE FOR A FULL ENGINE REBUILD since unfortunately his previous 165cc kit had seized..

on opening the engine i found one of the piston rings broken and mild scratch marks on the cylinder skirt and bores sleeve.Harish made one thing crystal clear to me he wanted absolute reliability,power and smoothness...which is a bit difficult to achieve..i suggested he take my STAGE 1 modification package..and the work began

here are the list of enhancements i did...
1.elliptical downdraft porting
2.acute valve angles
3.shortened valve guides
4.61mm forged racing piston-stroke of r15 is 58.7mm..so the capacity comes to 171.548cc to be exact.
5.exhaust mod
6.routine valve seating and valve lapping
7.lightened forged connecting rod
8.Teflon coated crank bearings
9.my own patented oxidized coating was given to the bore to reduce frictional losses and to enhance thermal heat dissipation

i also ensured to keep the compression slightly less by a miniscule margin...in the interest of better gas mileage and engine smoothness...

AFTER 6 DAYS OF solid engine setting and toiling..i finished assembling the engine..i meticulously washed every bolt and nut in the engine,including the bore,piston,head,crank to remove any residual metal dust that might be there from the previous engine seizure..SINCE i have median nerve palsy..i couldn't work for more than 7 hours per day on the bike,add to that my daily hospital duties were not helping either!!.

however i was able to assemble everything with my pain..and started the bike..VOILA..the engine was butter smooth,revved with gusto,the rich fueling balanced out.i idled the bike for 3 hours as preliminary run in procedure,cleaned the oil filter,worked on the clutch a bit,topped the bike with motul 15w40 semi synthetic oil,re cranked the bike..the prolonged idling issue with the ecu also got sorted.after a 8 hours of work went to the hospital in the morning.{was working throughout the night from 12 to morning 8}..
the next day i still didn't sleep went straight to my shop and started the bike,plugged in the stock ecu..got THE CO MAPPING done to compensate for lean fueling.and revved the nuts of the engine..ripped the bike in 1st,2nd,3rd,4rth ad 5th..the bike was effortlessly hitting 125kph..post which i couldn't asses the performance since i was running out of road.the following day i did a clean body wash,did a general service and delivered the bike...the REST AS YOU ALL KNOW IS HISTORY

@ digislayer

Well, lets drop the conversation on that 17K RPM issue. Its very clear to everyone, A Statement was given by abhimanyu31 about desmodromic valve arrangement (as to prove my 18,500RPM claim logic-less), So I pointed out the bikes that run well over 17K casually without any such valve arrangement. Just to polish and coverup that initial statement, he tried speaking enough speaking about R6 and later trying to play the fool with FZR250's reliability and its Engine setup, which had no relation at all.

Finally quoting the thread became murky, bitter and personal, Now you know where the thread started to deviate isn't it?

Well back on track,

I requested shahdupeshkhan to post the works that he did on my bike. Hope that answers your questions.

Well if it doesn't and you need any more information in detail, then I have to open-up a new thread or if you really interested to know more just ping in FB anytime, I will try explaining as best as I can.

Thanks.

[EDITED TO MINIMIZE POST SPACE]

Hello, and first of all congrats on your 10th year

Coming to Harish's setup, was the knocking in his previous setup so very evident in 5th and 6th gears?? I use the same 165cc kit, no mods to the head related to compression changes(just port alteration), using the R15's stock gasket(even though new bore has increased dia), with a free flow air-filter, and I dont notice any knocking of any kind on my bike, even with a pillion and lugging from 3 or 4k rpm in 6th gear. Didn't notice any pinging/knocking even during run-in(which was my blor-hyd ride with a pillion and luggage for two). Maybe it was a prob specific to only Harish's setup? My setup didn't have any issues and I was actually enjoying the torque during run-in..

The fuel pump being operated intermittently all night even with the key removed is definitely very weird and should be some fault.


Apart from downdraft porting and valve-guide changes, have you made any other changes to the head? Any mods to the combustion chamber? How did you relieve the extra compression? Harish was talking somewhere about some eliptical porting to relieve the CR, what's it? Can you provide us with the current Combustion Chamber's volume? (Not to verify your knowledge, please don't get me wrong, it's just for my knowledge )

About the piston, what type of crown is it?

I wouldn't comment about the first part of your post, but about the second part...I think shahdupekshan has provided what information I wanted, and I put over my queries to him Thanks!

@ALL: Let's please let this discussion be PURELY technical, and nothing personal or individual or offensive. Let's please not offend ANYONE here, xBhp is our forum.

mod detail

My Gud freind....since ur head is ported u will not have knocking.porting itself wil relieve compression.also harishes bike was not ported when it came to me..so ther was a lot of restriction to gas flow when it came to me.i have not done any alteration to the combustion chamber..apart from this.u can run the bike on high compression nothing wrong...but u must strengthen a few internal parts like the con rod,and provide better cooling to the engine by using industrial grade coolantl.

Elliptical ports with symmetric cuts in the ports is one of the secrets of my performance mods.it will produce a swirl in the intake charge aiding far better combustion and efficiency also far more smoothness as compared to a regular porting.moreover you cannot do my porting by using a drill bit..rather only by hand..so it is time consuming and painful as well but offers excellent precision