Engine Oils

[muztariq]

Re: Engine Oils

@psr,Mushtariq and Shoeb attention guys.
In my previous posts I have mentioned that I am using Rimula R3X in my Unicorn.
After 1000 kms usage I have opened dip stick to check oil level and quality. Oil was as good as new, no colour change at all and no drop in level.
Fine, but I am not convinced about this fresh colour. Earlier oil(Veedol super swift 10W40) will change colour within 500 kms.
Out of Curiosity and to clear my doubt, I took the bike to my regular mechanic and ask him to open clutch side case. While draining the oil, mechanic was also asking me the oil looking as good as new, why you are asking to drain?
He took out the oil strainer first and to my surprise the strainer was 70% covered with black precipitate though nothing at centrifugal filter.
I should have took photo but unfortunately I forgot to carry my phone.
In my previous oil filter cleanings(every 10K kms) I either found nothing or very very little amount of dust. This time clutch case opened after 6K kms.
Here is my doubt
Is this HDEO oils suitable only for bikes which are coming with replaceable oil filters like yamaha and TVS bikes?
I believe this oil is not allowing combustion dust not dissolving in it. That is why the oil looks so fresh even after some riding.
May be Shoeb can confirm this after opening his clutch case as his oil completed 2K + though he is on different brand of oil.
Experts your views please..
I switched back to Super swift till all the doubts cleared.
Thanks.

What were you expecting from the oil? That it would become dark like any other minerals you used.
Let me first tell you, the carbon that you see in any oil is from three sources:
1) Unburnt or Burnt Fuel.
2) Burnt Oil.
3) Deposits getting dislodged from piston.

You have not changed the carb settings so rule out 1.
2) Burnt oil - Whenever I used FS oils, the color changes quite late.. this is the observation not only my vehicles but many others too. These oils do not breakdown that fast. Some ppl drain it as good as new. So one thing is for sure, the oil that you are using does not break as fast as minerals. Hence the colour has not changed after 1000 kms.
3) Deposits getting dislodged - You want it , No? Actually when you have changed to this oil these deposits are getting dislodged and that is what is appearing on the strainer. It appears that the previous oil had left sludge which is showing up.

You should discontinue using any new oil when your engine heats up quickly, when you get burning smell from engine or you hear some strange sounds from the engine eg. rattling, or you see smoke!! If nothing of this sort is happening, the oil is doing what it is supposed to.

[shoeb2015]

Re: Engine Oils

@mrbabu76
Very strange. As muztariq pointed out,it could be other factors too.

1.We can easily ruse out combustion byproducts(blow-by gases mixing with oil,un-burnt hydrocarbons etc) because the filter mesh's pores are too big and it simply cannot separate them from oil.
2.Worn-out clutch material can be separated from the oil only by centrifugal filter and not by filter mesh.
(Hard particles,can be seen settled in the bottom when the used oil is let to sit for a while in a clean container-When clutch was abused/slipped due to various factors)

I can think of only two possibilities :-
1. Previously deposited sludge has been dislodged.
2. If the filters and clutch cover was cleaned by cotton waste or cloth having lint last time. This lint swells when soaked in oil and sticks to the filter mesh.-Highly possible.

Please let us know how the filters were cleaned last time.

Ensure that the clutch is not slipping. I will open the clutch cover if you say but Everything(except lint from cotton waste) will be flushed out when the engine oil is drained in splendor.
(Because- In splendor ,the drain plug is located just below the filter mesh and when the oil is drained, oil has to pass through this filter mesh thereby reverse flushing it.)

[vivekgautams]

Re: Engine Oils

Hey..
I am using Shell Advanced Ultra 10w40 FS oil for my RTR ABS for the past 10k km( first liter lasted for 8k km & second is still running). I found that oil seepage(thin layer of oil & mud/dust) is present on the whole engine, i.e, where ever the crank case is joint (near the engine head,the crank shaft position inspection nut,clutch cover area,the oil level indicator stick & the engine oil drain plug area).. Am I the only one facing this weird seepage or other users of Shell Ultra facing the same..?? Does the FS oil damage the gasket/seal..??

[devils_friend]

Re: Engine Oils

Hey..
I am using Shell Advanced Ultra 10w40 FS oil for my RTR ABS for the past 10k km( first liter lasted for 8k km & second is still running). I found that oil seepage(thin layer of oil & mud/dust) is present on the whole engine, i.e, where ever the crank case is joint (near the engine head,the crank shaft position inspection nut,clutch cover area,the oil level indicator stick & the engine oil drain plug area).. Am I the only one facing this weird seepage or other users of Shell Ultra facing the same..?? Does the FS oil damage the gasket/seal..??

Stretched the oil to 8k kms??

Ever opened the engine for any reason?

Oils dont damage the gasket. Check for leakages with the engine ON. This will help you to know, from where exactly is the leakage happening.

Cheerz!!

[junaid12345678]

Re: Engine Oils

Hey..
I am using Shell Advanced Ultra 10w40 FS oil for my RTR ABS for the past 10k km( first liter lasted for 8k km & second is still running). I found that oil seepage(thin layer of oil & mud/dust) is present on the whole engine, i.e, where ever the crank case is joint (near the engine head,the crank shaft position inspection nut,clutch cover area,the oil level indicator stick & the engine oil drain plug area).. Am I the only one facing this weird seepage or other users of Shell Ultra facing the same..?? Does the FS oil damage the gasket/seal..??

8k kms is too much even for fully synthetic engine oil. Don't go beyond 5k kms even on fully synthetic oils. First clean the engine body thoroughly and then ride your bike. This will help you find out the source of the oil leak. Engine oil never damages gasket seals. I have also used Shell advance FS oil in my xtreme and me too experienced leak but just surrounding the oil filler/dipstick cap but its not a serious issue unlike yours where oil is depositing all over the engine.

[vivekgautams]

Re: Engine Oils

Stretched the oil to 8k kms??

Ever opened the engine for any reason?

Oils dont damage the gasket. Check for leakages with the engine ON. This will help you to know, from where exactly is the leakage happening.

Cheerz!!

The Bike was very smooth,gear sifts was like a knife even after the stretched usage of 8k km...!!
The engine was not opened until oil started leaking from the engine head, around 5k km after shifting to shell's FS.. Gasket was changed & bolts were re-threaded & after few thousand km the oil leak was back.. Mechanics & I, are not quite sure what causes the periodic leak..

8k kms is too much even for fully synthetic engine oil. Don't go beyond 5k kms even on fully synthetic oils. First clean the engine body thoroughly and then ride your bike. This will help you find out the source of the oil leak. Engine oil never damages gasket seals. I have also used Shell advance FS oil in my xtreme and me too experienced leak but just surrounding the oil filler/dipstick cap but its not a serious issue unlike yours where oil is depositing all over the engine.

I have cleaned the bike many times to locate the leak but it has gone in wane.. Few mechs told me it is the engine head gasket & few tell me it is the valve seal & TVS mech. told me to replace the engine head itself ...!!! So, I was wondering if the chemical composition of the FS oil damaged the gasket/seal or if it is a mechanical problem.. BTW what was reason behind the oil leak in your xtreme..??

[devils_friend]

Re: Engine Oils

The Bike was very smooth,gear sifts was like a knife even after the stretched usage of 8k km...!!
The engine was not opened until oil started leaking from the engine head, around 5k km after shifting to shell's FS.. Gasket was changed & bolts were re-threaded & after few thousand km the oil leak was back.. Mechanics & I, are not quite sure what causes the periodic leak..

Its not only about gear shifts. The oil circulates in the whole engine, clutch and gearbox. Stretching the oil way above its limits is not a wise thing to do bro.

How many kms done in odo? Also, why use re-threaded bolts? Was the head re-threaded where the bolts fix in? Re-threading the bolts reduces its size and will increase the size of the head where the bolts fix in.

Chances of oil near dip stick is due to overfilling or not tightening it properly. Same might be the case for oil near drain bolt.

Ask your folks in Apache forum to help you better. I dont think engine oil is harming the gasket or the seal.

Cheerz!!

[B7ACKTHORN]

Re: Engine Oils

Hey..
I am using Shell Advanced Ultra 10w40 FS oil for my RTR ABS for the past 10k km( first liter lasted for 8k km & second is still running). I found that oil seepage(thin layer of oil & mud/dust) is present on the whole engine, i.e, where ever the crank case is joint (near the engine head,the crank shaft position inspection nut,clutch cover area,the oil level indicator stick & the engine oil drain plug area).. Am I the only one facing this weird seepage or other users of Shell Ultra facing the same..?? Does the FS oil damage the gasket/seal..??

This brown dust gunked up with mud at pressure points such as seals do get gunked up and as a matter of fact numerous bikes have to have this gunk issue, which is common, most of the time, it's just mud not oil itself. When oil with mud is gunked up you can see blotches as opposed to the engine gunked up with mud uniformly. For example, you can see slight paste like brown residue on plugs, engine seals clearances etc etc, those are oil leak induced gunks.

But 8k boy oh boy! That's a real stunner. Personally I've extended max to 6k and that's with a SS oil.

Tell me, did you see top up your oil anywhere in this 8k life? And did you happen to ever do any engine work that required opening of the side cases etc? Did you inspect the oil after 8k and did you check how the strainer/filter was?

Cheers!
VJ

[vivekgautams]

Re: Engine Oils

Its not only about gear shifts. The oil circulates in the whole engine, clutch and gearbox. Stretching the oil way above its limits is not a wise thing to do bro.

How many kms done in odo? Also, why use re-threaded bolts? Was the head re-threaded where the bolts fix in? Re-threading the bolts reduces its size and will increase the size of the head where the bolts fix in.

Bro,the oil had turned black within a thousand km but the lube properties of the oil was constant through the life of the oil, there was absolutely no change(in sound,performance or fuel efficiency & bike was giving no clue that the oil was used more than 6k km) in the bike even after stretching the oil above 6.5k km..
Currently bike has crossed 22k km..I'm guess the head was re-threaded & not the bolts, but the mechanic told me he got the bolts re-threaded & later told me to replace the engine head..

But 8k boy oh boy! That's a real stunner. Personally I've extended max to 6k and that's with a SS oil.

Tell me, did you see top up your oil anywhere in this 8k life? And did you happen to ever do any engine work that required opening of the side cases etc? Did you inspect the oil after 8k and did you check how the strainer/filter was?

Cheers!
VJ

The guy in the Shell pump told me that the FS oil would last 20k km..!!! I kept a check on the oil every 1k km.. After 4k km on FS, the bike was given for service & a clutch plate inspection/replacement & after which the bike started leaking oil form the head.. The oil levels started dropping after that & when I got the oil changed during service & another attempt to stop the leak the oil was around 500ml.. After the oil change I could not differentiate between the used & new oil (except the colour) & the oil filters were in good condition..

[B7ACKTHORN]

Re: Engine Oils

The guy in the Shell pump told me that the FS oil would last 20k km..!!! I kept a check on the oil every 1k km.. After 4k km on FS, the bike was given for service & a clutch plate inspection/replacement & after which the bike started leaking oil form the head.. The oil levels started dropping after that & when I got the oil changed during service & another attempt to stop the leak the oil was around 500ml.. After the oil change I could not differentiate between the used & new oil (except the colour) & the oil filters were in good condition..

See I'll give you an example. Bajaj has this oil BAJAJ DTSI 20w50 10,000 and it's been on the market for a year now. When you take the bikes to SVC they use this oil quoting 10,000Kays GARANDEED. Something to put it this way in Bajaj's terms like gear niche, world piche which was pure horsec*** to begin with.

Just a case in point. Trust me, I personally have never ever witnessed any bike that ran 10,000Kays on this DTSI oil especially Bajaj. Now the difference isn't much from any oil either, because the base is the same to reckon with.

You don't really have to squeeze the juice so much so out of oil to get to its life. Most long drain interval oils do get their tainted at around 3 to 4k max, depending on a lot of factors, engine, fuel, etc etc.

Cheers!
VJ

[vivekgautams]

Re: Engine Oils

See I'll give you an example. Bajaj has this oil BAJAJ DTSI 20w50 10,000 and it's been on the market for a year now. When you take the bikes to SVC they use this oil quoting 10,000Kays GARANDEED. Something to put it this way in Bajaj's terms like gear niche, world piche which was pure horsec*** to begin with.

Just a case in point. Trust me, I personally have never ever witnessed any bike that ran 10,000Kays on this DTSI oil especially Bajaj. Now the difference isn't much from any oil either, because the base is the same to reckon with.

You don't really have to squeeze the juice so much so out of oil to get to its life. Most long drain interval oils do get their tainted at around 3 to 4k max, depending on a lot of factors, engine, fuel, etc etc.

Cheers!
VJ

Cars do 10k km on SS easily & 40k km on FS easily,So, I thought bikes can do 6-8k km atleast..
May be I was able to do 8k km (approx) coz 90-92% of those 7.x k km were done on highways @ 90's kmph where the clutch is not used Or not much of gear shifts are required..

[mrbabu76]

Re: Engine Oils

@mrbabu76
Very strange. As muztariq pointed out,it could be other factors too.

1.We can easily ruse out combustion byproducts(blow-by gases mixing with oil,un-burnt hydrocarbons etc) because the filter mesh's pores are too big and it simply cannot separate them from oil.
2.Worn-out clutch material can be separated from the oil only by centrifugal filter and not by filter mesh.
(Hard particles,can be seen settled in the bottom when the used oil is let to sit for a while in a clean container-When clutch was abused/slipped due to various factors)

I can think of only two possibilities :-
1. Previously deposited sludge has been dislodged.
2. If the filters and clutch cover was cleaned by cotton waste or cloth having lint last time. This lint swells when soaked in oil and sticks to the filter mesh.-Highly possible.

Please let us know how the filters were cleaned last time.

Ensure that the clutch is not slipping. I will open the clutch cover if you say but Everything(except lint from cotton waste) will be flushed out when the engine oil is drained in splendor.
(Because- In splendor ,the drain plug is located just below the filter mesh and when the oil is drained, oil has to pass through this filter mesh thereby reverse flushing it.)

[MENTION=47715]muztariq[/MENTION] and shoeb,

That precipitate is very black and fine carbon powder. There are no traces of any metal shavings or cotton fibers. My clutch plates look like new as I wont ride clutch, use clutch strictly
for gear shifts only. So I also think Muztariq's 3rd point is possible.

The clutch area usually cleaned with little amount of kerosene. Cotton waste was never used by mechanic inside the clutch case.

Anyway I will wait PSR sir's oil drain period since he is also using Rimula R3X.

Regarding the splendor's drain bolt location under the Mesh, what a simple and functional location. It will clear most of the debris during drain and no wonder splendor's engine lasts very long.

[muztariq]

Re: Engine Oils

@muztariq and shoeb,

That precipitate is very black and fine carbon powder. There are no traces of any metal shavings or cotton fibers. My clutch plates look like new as I wont ride clutch, use clutch strictly
for gear shifts only. So I also think Muztariq's 3rd point is possible.

The clutch area usually cleaned with little amount of kerosene. Cotton waste was never used by mechanic inside the clutch case.

Anyway I will wait PSR sir's oil drain period since he is also using Rimula R3X.

Regarding the splendor's drain bolt location under the Mesh, what a simple and functional location. It will clear most of the debris during drain and no wonder splendor's engine lasts very long.

Its better you call the 1000 km on HDEO as an engine flush and move on.. Try the HDEO again only after you get convinced that they are safe. One reason why they are safe is the fact that you did 1000 km on an HDEO!!

@ vivekgautams - I personally feel, when an FS starts to reduce in volume, it has lost its viscosity. Why dont FS starts to vanish from day one? And they starts becoming low in volume after 2000-3000 km. I would top up an FS just once or 4000 km in a bike. If no top up is required, you can go till 5000 - 6000 km mark.

But anyone of you know someone who did not top up an FS oil till 5000 km?

[NIGHTMARE]

Re: Engine Oils

I'm using Rimula R3X, bike throttling at 80 Km/hr and gear making Tuk-Tuk noise ? Any advice ?

[sandeepcf]

Re: Engine Oils

I
But anyone of you know someone who did not top up an FS oil till 5000 km?

My Oil history: After I got my brother's Unicorn
Veedol Super Swift(3000kms), CPR14T(8000kms), MOTUL 300V 10w40(3000kms), 15w50(2500kms), Shell Mineral(200kms), ELF(5000kms), Gulf20w40 (800kms), Gulf 10w30(600kms), SHELL(6000kms), SHELL(5500kms), Honda Oil (400kms), ELF(6000kms), Valvoline Premium 4T(2400kms), DELVAC 1300(2100kms), CPR14T(700kms and going on)
Never needed any topup. Oil Level never dropped to the lower mark on the dip stick.