Discussion moved from Pune offline thread to a new thread.

90 posts moved, Phew!!!!

Guys do let me know if i moved any post that shouldn't be here, i'll move it back to where it belongs.

Good job. Thanks.

Suggestion for the title of thread, as its not just about braking.
How about -> "Cornering: Use of brake and throttle. A spirited debate..."?

Great job SunilG. This discussion surely needed a separate thread.

Regarding braking while cornering, I would like to know how to tackle situations where you enter the corner at right speeds but suddenly you spot an obstacle at the exit. I have come across such scenario on Kasara Ghat while going from Mumbai to Nasik where although its one-way, village vehicles tend to come from opposite direction without any warning. In another scenario, I was riding down the Mhasla ghat while coming from shrivardhan and suddenly I saw a big pothole at the exit. It was damn scary. In both the scenarios the entry was super smooth.

Don't want to repeat what is already written and I have followed .
Check out the following link:
Riding Skills Series: Avoiding Obstacles in a Turn

Touting that what we do wrong when riding on the streets to be the right way of doing things(just because we have been doing it all our lives) was the real bane of all the trouble.
"I do it this way..but i ain't sure of it" was all that the discussion needed. But ice and glaciers were dragged into the discussion for no reasons whatsoever.
One of the things I have observed is when nothing seems to work ppl usually go about justifying their wrong claims under the pretext of "Street riding is different to track riding and there is more to riding than riding in twisties"
I agree that there is a hell lot more to riding than riding in twisties. Recently I did a 1000 kms on a Bullet classic 500 and it has been one of the most memorable rides of my life. It wasn't a sport bike and I wasn't cornering a single km on it.
But nothing is as far away from the truth as claiming street riding to be different to track riding is. What you learn on the track is what you learn FOR the streets. Its like a juggler juggling his training balls. The juggler keeps telling the world that ppl need to juggle with dummy plastic balls before they can juggle with chainsaws. But a few idiots shoot back saying juggling chainsaws is completely different to what juggling with plastic balls is and hence the rules don't apply.
Well happy juggling.

Regarding the real life demo of how not to brake in a downhill hairpin and how to be on throttle all through the turn ?
Firstly, its so doable that I dont even see the merit in showing it to anyone. Those who don't wanna believe in the school of thought that all braking and everything should be done BEFORE the turn will continue to disbelieve in it even after seeing a live demo. Going by a few past posts some may even claim that the rider had his brake lamp disabled lol.
Secondly, I don't think anyone amongst us should be or is qualified to be an instructor. If you want a piece of advice you will get it from good riders who stay committed to their riding but I don't think anyone should bring unto himself the responsibility of teaching how to ride. Lets leave it to the real experts. It is neither a moral obligation nor a moral responsibility to correct a rider who is spotted making fundamental mistakes. And to do that to people who don't even wanna know where they are going wrong is an absolute futile effort.
Thirldy, if you still wanna go ahead and have a demo go ahead and do it with those who volunteer for it. I will come as an audience myself. If its after 6th or 7th I will be in Chennai at the track for practicing before CSS sessions begin so I wont be able to make it to lavasa.
Lastly, seeing someone do it live is only gonna serve the purpose of proving that the theory when executed in reality works and doesnt result in a crash. But apart from that the onlookers are not gonna learn anything. Riding has a hands-on learning curve. You have to do it yourself in controlled environments(track) to even get your brain to think that its the right way to ride.

Since Oldfox has come and hit the nail on its head I take it that the discussion has ended. Whoever wants to go show a demo go do it. I will be an audience to it all if I am in Pune. Apologies for my absence if it happens post 5th Jan !

I thought in the following post you talked about us having to see this in action.
In this case, I guess we can very well lock this tread. As the one who talked about live demo and all is backing out of it.
Mods, can we please lock this thread?

@Old fox sir: Each and every bit of information couldn't have been put up that nicely. A nice summary of the discussion and really handy information for all the people about ANY doubts on cornering.

Icing on the cake:

I guess it is time you both took a deep breath and let it go.

Tenhut: It is apparent that you are in no mood to join in the suggested G2G. Let it be.

Nav: You called in a G2G on the forum and its against forum rules and decorum to announce abandonment just because of a personal battle. The others and the forum are not to be thus used and discarded. Please exercise restraint and think of everyone involved, not just your 'adversary'.

Done.
I was told this(offline) long time back but I though we might learn something from the discussion but I guess I should have listened earlier.

Totally agree with it. But, I am not skilled to show the demo. It was TehHut's suggestion that we goto Lavasa and see it in action.

If he is backing out of it and asking someone else to give the demo. That person hasn't said anything about the topic, even once. So I'm not sure if it will even happen or not.

In the end, we all just might end up riding to and back. Though I never had any issue with riding just for the sake of it, we can keep the meet planned as per schedule.

Phew just saw this. Interesting discussion, shows sometimes that half knowledge can be more dangerous than no knowledge. Couldnt go through all of this but couple of points i noted that were debated on. About throttling in a corner, assuming same lean angle is held, opening throttle will eventually start widening your line, which is why riders run wide on the exit of corners. Adding throttle will make the bike want to stand up. In fact once you've steered the bike into a corner, the act of cracking open the throttle (once you've reached your desired lean angle) is what stops the bike from leaning any further. Going off the throttle while in a corner will cause the opposite to happen. the bike will want to tuck and fall towards the inside of the turn. As a result and especially on bigger bikes, the resultant weight transfer to the front and forces acting on the front tire creates a countersteering effect that may cause the bike to want to stand up and run wide briefly, (the abruptness of going off throttle as well as the speed being carried compounds this effect). By and large though on our small capacity indian bikes the effect is much less evident.

As far as trail braking. I've had this discussion with Keith long before they came to India. As people have mentioned. Keiths is a riding school, not a racing school. His decision not to advocate trail braking invloves several factors which have to be considered carefully before blowing off or advocating trail braking technique. Incidentally Freddie Spencer who as we all know is an acomplished champion, runs a school himself and he teaches trail braking even at the beginner level. This argument of whether or not to trail brake didnt start here, its been around for ages.

Lets look at what happens when you trail brake. For one, there is huge weight transfer to the front of the bike as the front suspension dives under the braking action. Along with that the wheelbase also shortens. This serves to allow the bike to turn in faster. This is one advantage of trail braking and on a heavy bike at high speeds the effect is amplified. Secondly it allows you to brake later and take advantage of race position in a race. Ask any modern day racer, myself included. We all use trail braking. Technology has moved on so much since the old days that modern day machinery and tires support trail braking even more than they did in the past, its a natural evolution. The single biggest reason trail braking is not taught to a beginner or street rider is because it demands higher than average feel for traction. Most average riders do not have that level of skill and consequently they will crash if you tell them to trail brake. Trail braking is all about feel, under a loaded front suspension a good rider will get even more feedback on the level of available traction. Once mastered its a very valuable skill than can be used anywhere. Even if you choose not to use it on street or track, its still a valuable skill to use in an emergency and in my opinion a rider is better off knowing how to than not. This was the essence of my argument with Keith and in the end i believe we agreed that it just wasnt a technique he prefered to teach and left it at that. I'm in agreement with him when you think about a typical riding school where the rider skill level is very basic. I've completed all 4 levels of CSS and even level 4 invovles basics. Racing is a whole different dynamic and ball game that is not covered in CSS. There is loads to learn and master first before one can reap any advantage out of trail braking. But for a skilled rider, this is a must have in my opinion. I'm the chief racing instrcutor at the Apex Racing Academy and i only teach trail braking in level 3 when we are confident that the rider has a keen enough sense of feel to be able to use it. Incidentally, the fastest lap times always come WITH trail braking

On using rear brakes in a corner. Yes there are occasions on when this can be useful. However in my experience i've seen it as something thats more of a riders personal preference / riding style. As racers we occasionally use this mid corner, say while in a dog fight for position and maybe wanting to scrub off a little speed and not upset the bike. you might be already carrying too much lean to risk using the front brake and in that case you may use the rear (which is also easier to catch in case of a slide). Also this will not transfer any further weight to the front that might upset the balance. So theres always situations where it can be useful. By and large though i dont use the rear at all and have still managed to race successfully. The same goes for many other top seeded riders i've had conversations with. In the end its more of a personal choice than anything else.

my 2 cents

@killer : Thanks for the inputs !

@Killer: Thanks for your inputs. I knew you have missed this discussion happening in a thread you might not have visited ever.

I dont care for what purpose the meet was called for; whether to prove a point or otherwise. But in the spirit of sharing knowledge, i will still be there at lavasa on the 7th, if nothing else then to just enjoy my weekend ride. Everyone is still invited to join in. More the merrier i say.

Nav :I would suggest you pursue this with as much zest to its logical conclusion as earlier

since ritwik will be there in all probability with sagar & roger they can very well demonstrate tenhut's school of thought

& yes -- please do get a video if possible

Agenda: From my side, just ride. Some chit chat and enjoy. This is the first full weekend of 2012.

When & Where: Group assembles at Chandani Chowk by 06:15am and leaves by 06:30AM, 7th Jan 2012 (Sat)

Who All coming: (add the name to the following list)
From Pune
Nav75
Niks
Alok Das - Inflammable
ROCKRZ
Shrinath rao
vivekjayasheel
Sumit_B
vrathor
rishabh (as he is not able to login :P )
Meghnad
Ritwik23
Eshan P180
Vivek
Siddharth_zmr
Inder

From Mumbai
Rony (tentative if Saturday / confirmed if Sunday)

PS: Standard rules regarding safety gear and documents to be followed.

Note: Sorry for changing the agenda. After some changes that has happened, I have to change the agenda. If anyone is willing to demonstrate anything, he is most welcome to do so but not to prove a point (it never was, it was all about learning).