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**Divya Sharan** · 03-16-2012, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by niranjanvaidya View Post

This thread reminds me of World War II Dogfights. I actually canceled my post twice thinking that the thread would cool off into maturity.

Sorry for the long post but here are my two cents:

The thread starter asks whether Karizma is losing its appeal?

Yes and No. The market is about expectations. It is all about what one wants from a machine. Marketing studies show that expectations are time bound. For example, features like auto start were premium features a decade back; these are mandatory and expected on the smallest of vehicles.

Someone pointed out that the Karizma was once a premium bike (it still is according to me), now a super commuter..etc. This is a classic "change of expectations" from a product. Likewise, the 220F once the fastest Indian will be surpassed by some other product soon. Evolution will continue and in the process, expectations will put a product in a different segment altogether.

Just look at this: the beloved CD 100 and Boxer are still remembered today. Were those good products? Of course yes, these products set the segment on fire at that time. What has happened today? Rise of expectations; people preferring more powerful machines with more features. Does this make them losers? Not at all!!

The ZMA is the oldest design here (in terms of engine). Taken from the CRF, this is a decade old design which is super stable today. No issues, reliability problems or niggling faults. However, what it is competing with is new technology (read 220 and the RTR). And, this new technology does have it's own share of issues. As with the CRF engine, these competitors will take sometime before all the bugs are ironed out.

The stable and reliable factor combined with the brand name alone is the reason that the ZMA sells in huge numbers (relatively) even today. This gives me a reason to believe that the ZMA has not yet lost it's appeal. However, it is losing out on expectations..people like me who crave for more power, better handling, better features and a better brand.

A few products are unfazed by the time theory. For example, the Yamaha RD350 still commands a premium in the second hand market and rules hearts for most. The question is...whether the ZMA is in the same league as the RD 350? That is a question that will be answered in time.

+100...
This is what even I've been trying to say.
Karizma has not lost its appeal, but it's slowly losing it. If nothing is upgraded in the bike, we may not even see it after 5 years.

I've owned a ZMR for 15 months, burned 12000 kms of rubber.
So, I assume myself qualified enough to comment on this thread.
I (and most of us) feel that the bike urgently needs a 6th overdrive gear, a few PS bump in power and some design tweaks.

I don't know about others but sometimes even in 5th, I change to an imaginary 6th (and realize later)

.

Only option for us to gain more power - get it to Joel bhai!

**zma@mybabe** · 03-16-2012, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by niranjanvaidya View Post

This thread reminds me of World War II Dogfights. I actually canceled my post twice thinking that the thread would cool off into maturity.

Sorry for the long post but here are my two cents:

The thread starter asks whether Karizma is losing its appeal?

Yes and No. The market is about expectations. It is all about what one wants from a machine. Marketing studies show that expectations are time bound. For example, features like auto start were premium features a decade back; these are mandatory and expected on the smallest of vehicles.

Someone pointed out that the Karizma was once a premium bike (it still is according to me), now a super commuter..etc. This is a classic "change of expectations" from a product. Likewise, the 220F once the fastest Indian will be surpassed by some other product soon. Evolution will continue and in the process, expectations will put a product in a different segment altogether.

Just look at this: the beloved CD 100 and Boxer are still remembered today. Were those good products? Of course yes, these products set the segment on fire at that time. What has happened today? Rise of expectations; people preferring more powerful machines with more features. Does this make them losers? Not at all!!

The ZMA is the oldest design here (in terms of engine). Taken from the CRF, this is a decade old design which is super stable today. No issues, reliability problems or niggling faults. However, what it is competing with is new technology (read 220 and the RTR). And, this new technology does have it's own share of issues. As with the CRF engine, these competitors will take sometime before all the bugs are ironed out.

The stable and reliable factor combined with the brand name alone is the reason that the ZMA sells in huge numbers (relatively) even today. This gives me a reason to believe that the ZMA has not yet lost it's appeal. However, it is losing out on expectations..people like me who crave for more power, better handling, better features and a better brand.

A few products are unfazed by the time theory. For example, the Yamaha RD350 still commands a premium in the second hand market and rules hearts for most. The question is...whether the ZMA is in the same league as the RD 350? That is a question that will be answered in time.

well said man.

**nav75** · 03-16-2012, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by niranjanvaidya View Post

This gives me a reason to believe that the ZMA has not yet lost it's appeal. However, it is losing out on expectations..people like me who crave for more power, better handling, better features and a better brand.

I wanted to reply and then I read your post. I would not have put my words correctly to say what you did in a couple of lines.

Regarding the poll, I won't reply as I think for someone if Karizma (or for that matter any bike) ticks the right points, it will appeal to him. As Karizma is still selling in enough numbers that the maker don't feel like its not worth selling this bike, it got some appeal left.
Oh well, back in 2004 (when I was looking for my 2nd bike), Karizma didn't appeal to me but 3years back it did and I bought one. Same thing with R15 too.

**antz.bin** · 03-16-2012, 02:15 PM

My question to everyone here is, how do we know how well or badly any product in the 2 wheeler market is selling?

Is it by how many I see riding around me?

Is it just speculation?

Or is there any official press releases detailing how many of each model were at least manufactured in the last say one month/quarter/year?

Till the day we do not get this data in the public domain, all sales based arguments are futile.

So instead of discussing how introducing some product affected sales of some other product, can we try to give the discussion a technical turn?

**psr** · 03-16-2012, 02:24 PM

What a blast everybody is having here.

Let us be passionate about our Bikes and Beliefs...but let us also be COOL

.

I chose ZMA because I wanted a bike for city and NH duty which will lend itself to DIY and will also run without battery with full use of it's faculties.

It should also withstand my learning attempts (tampering

) and must have a never say die heart.. The ZMA-R fulfilled all of it, and is giving me a lot of happy riding moments...
I do not look beyond this..

**Samarth 619** · 03-16-2012, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by HyperRetard View Post

So you want the ZMA to lose its touring capabilities?
Go buy a R15(for the footpegs)/ KTM(for gear ratios) instead.

Wow, could'nt have made it more clearer.
Thats a valid point. And that's what I've been trying to point out all along. If you're expecting a better bike than the ZMA at a cheaper rate then go get one, why the hell blame the ZMA's appeal.

I understand what you want to say. My point was about equally spaced ratios which could be 5 equally spaced gears too. 6 speed is just suggested because CRF has 6 speeds.
And No, the Karizma won't lose anything by what I suggested, except that good but largely unneeded low end push.
19 bhp with enough midrange and 6 speed box will only increase its highway touring capability.
And by footpegs moving back, I mean so only slightly. I didn't mention anything about the high handlebar or seat, just footpegs.

In other words, "touching the sky without leaving the earth" is what I'm suggesting. Was just explaining my idea of a "better tourer"... No offence though.

**Divya Sharan** · 03-16-2012, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by psr View Post

What a blast everybody is having here.

Let us be passionate about our Bikes and Beliefs...but let us also be COOL

.

I chose ZMA because I wanted a bike for city and NH duty which will lend itself to DIY and will also run without battery with full use of it's faculties.

It should also withstand my learning attempts (tampering

) and must have a never say die heart.. The ZMA-R fulfilled all of it, and is giving me a lot of happy riding moments...
I do not look beyond this..

Finally, you replied sir! (Was waiting to read ur thoughts...)

Okay, so you bought the bike knowing all technical aspects and maybe it was the best bike then (keeping ur requirements in mind).
Don't you feel that it deserved a performance upgrade?

Because, IMHO most of the people don't buy a bike (that too a 'premium' one) for DIY, trial/error etc. They don't have that know how.
I agree it does what it should. But, it doesn't do what the newer kids do!
You get my point?

What's wrong in questioning the manufacturer for keeping a very good product so 'Stale'?

**voodoo_god13** · 03-16-2012, 03:19 PM

The Karizma loosing its appeal is not important really. Fact is any produt will loose it appeal over a period of time.

At this point in time for an enthusiast buying a motorcycle the Karizma is not an option. Just look at the 'What bike?' section, no more P220 or Karizma threads. And the reason is simple there are more options at the price point and people want the best (relatively speaking) for the money spent. For that matter the P220 is loosing appeal after the P200ns has been announced.

As far as touring goes whilst it is still one of the best it isn't the only option. The pulsars, yamaha R15/Fz etc. have been doing touring duty for a long enough time.

However what is important is that the Karizma has not lost its RESPECT. The brand name is still strong and a better variant will be a solid contender I'm sure.

**aargee** · 03-16-2012, 03:46 PM

**niranjanvaidya** · 03-16-2012, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by Divya Sharan View Post

I don't know about others but sometimes even in 5th, I change to an imaginary 6th (and realize later)

.

That is something that is applicable to most bikes out there; excluding the R15

Originally posted by antz.bin View Post

My question to everyone here is, how do we know how well or badly any product in the 2 wheeler market is selling?

Is it by how many I see riding around me?

Is it just speculation?

Or is there any official press releases detailing how many of each model were at least manufactured in the last say one month/quarter/year?

Till the day we do not get this data in the public domain, all sales based arguments are futile.

So instead of discussing how introducing some product affected sales of some other product, can we try to give the discussion a technical turn?

Your argument is correct and valid too. There are no figures to substantiate the sale and hence our statements. Having said this, the number of ZMRs is on the rise. I see a lot of ZMRs on the roads these days. A trip to Mumbai was even more of an eye opener. A lot of ZMRs everywhere. Maybe it was a ZMR day. Jokes apart, does anyone have any sales figures for a comparo?

Originally posted by aargee View Post

STOP!

Nice one!!

**The Monk** · 03-16-2012, 06:39 PM

This is what happens when petrol becomes too expensive. Bikers instead of tanking up and getting out and riding are sitting becoming keyboard warriors.

My equipment is bigger and better than yours!

**psr** · 03-16-2012, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Divya Sharan View Post

Okay, so you bought the bike knowing all technical aspects and maybe it was the best bike then (keeping ur requirements in mind).
Don't you feel that it deserved a performance upgrade?

Because, IMHO most of the people don't buy a bike (that too a 'premium' one) for DIY, trial/error etc. They don't have that know how.
I agree it does what it should. But, it doesn't do what the newer kids do!
You get my point?

What's wrong in questioning the manufacturer for keeping a very good product so 'Stale'?

I read 450 + pages 4500+ posts researched for 6 months before buying the Karizma...that too a pre owned one..The ZMA uses Honda CRF 230 engine which can be over bored to 250cc max with re sleeving and crank case alteration..there was a 230cc bike with LC which produced 21 bhp which was discontinued..
Aswering your question, yes the ZMA should have been updated, but unlike the P150 which saw many upgrades, Honda's engine was already at the max of cc size. may be a DOHC LC with four valves would have made things different...or may be even a twin cylinder..Only the manufacturer and his tie up conditions can answer it..
I am happy with my bikes and they do precisely what is expected of them..
I am looking at the promised future releases of 350cc bikes, which will hopefully set new standards and will sell more than the 250 and 600 cc class of bikes.

**ansum** · 03-16-2012, 07:44 PM

I'm on a quest to find the right bike which will serve as an easy commuter in the city and as a relaxed tourer. I'm certainly not interested in drag races or racetracks. So here is what appeals to me about the R.
1) Ergonomics & Comfort: The upright riding position and the large seat are big plus points.
2) Looks: This is a matter of personal taste, but I think the R has elegant lines. There are many design elements that appeal to me like the fairing, the analog/digital instrument console, the exhaust and the twin tail lights.
3) Decent power and FE that I can live with.

a wonder or a miracle.

2) Vibrations: Many reviews say that the R has a very smooth engine but I have heard complaints from some ZMR owners regarding vibrations in the handlebars and footpegs. Does it only pertain to the ZMR?

**aargee** · 03-16-2012, 07:51 PM

Ansum - Friendly warning my friend, make your first post at the "Who Are You" section. If you've questions on ZMA/R...(pls read Hero Honda Karizma/Karizma R

), post it under atleast under the Ownership thread.

Stay off from this thread...

niranjanvaidya - Thanks; I don't know what else to say!!! Worst thing is the entire team is on GIR otherwise, this thread would've got locked by now!!!

**psr** · 03-16-2012, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by ansum View Post

However, R owners please help me out as there are things I would like to know from you before I buy one……
1) Gearbox: I came across quite a few negative comments regarding the gearbox. Is it true that it isn’t smooth? Or is it just rough during the run-in? Also regarding the gearbox, is it necessary to up/down shift often or does it pull well even from low rpms in higher gears?
2) Vibrations: Many reviews say that the R has a very smooth engine but I have heard complaints from some ZMR owners regarding vibrations in the handlebars and footpegs. Does it only pertain to the ZMR?

1. The gear box of most new engines will be a bit tough to work with and ZMA is no exception..but after setting in .it has one of the sweetest changing gear box,with easy shifts.Being a long stroke under square engine ,it produces lots of torque even at low RPMs and so frequent down shifts are not necessary...that said do not expect to drive in 4th gear at 2K RPM......try to shift at 3 K RPM and you will love the bike's response.
2. Some ZMRs have reported vibes at specific RPM typically 6 K.HH uses 10w30 which may be the reason..I am using a ZMA-R with 20w40 oil which has no vibes at any RPM.
For more queries please post in the Karizma thread.

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