We have witnessed Rylan Lobo's modded fz-16 crossing 22k on ODO without any problems. Are you using your 200cc yellow modded FZS for your daily street riding or racing? Can you elaborate more when you say that modded parts reduce the stock engine life. What I can understand is in the engine there are a few bearings and a crankshaft a piston few rings and camshaft, a timing chain. few more which you know better than me. Please tell me how these things get messed up with sane riding and correct engine oil changing? All the aftermarket parts which Joel mentions are claimed to be as good as the stock one then tell how me the engine life is reduced?

Just to get more knowledge and I'm not on the offensive.

Thanks in advance

Exactly Abhimanyu. I am a satisfied user of Joels mods. Before going for the Mods, I too had some doubts about reliability. Before the Mods, I could ride my bike in the city, take it out on long tours, do pretty much everything and the bike never broke down or gave any issues. After the Mods, is there any difference in reliability? Answer is NO. I am able to do everything that I did when the bike was stock and my Bike never broke down, infact some of the niggles that I had when the bike was stock (Cold start, strange noise from valves) have been ironed out. To top it all performance has gone up, and the bike overall is more interesting & fun to ride. We did a lot of high speed tours after the MODS and never felt bike was struggling or had to take more number of breaks.

The point is, there are a lot of satisfied users of Joels Mods. However, the tone of bloggers off late in this thread both by dis-satisfied & non-users is a big turn off. I did try to convey the fact that Joels mods are reliable in some other thread, however, the way it was opposed was a big turn off.

I request MODS to kindly intervene, as this discussion is not going in the right direction. I know Joel wont get affected by all that happened in this thread, I just hope he stays like that and doesn't get discouraged.

It was really hard to find a guy like Joel, and I appreciate all the good work that he has done on my bike.

My FZ is my daily rider. I ride it like I stole it, Man I beat on it like no tomorrow. Yeah I'm hard on my bike and previously cars.
I'm sure you have seen my video clips on youtube, I ride like that daily, carve through traffic in 2-3-4th gear leave it close to redline etc, highway runs with mates when we are bored etc. I know it won't do 60k kms, I'm going to be lucky to get 15k from it I think, I'll most likely be honing and re-ringing it around 15k. Am I happy with that? Hell yeah, If it goes longer than 15k then I didn't ride it hard enough (Just joking)

The harder u run a engine the more stress there is on all the parts, especially the rotating parts, these spin faster than the factory expected them to due to more HP/TQ the engine is putting out.
Here's some of the things you need to consider.

All the fasteners on the rotating parts will spin faster, meaning the halves the fasteners are holding together will be forced apart due to the higher centrifugal force, Will I need to upgrade the fasteners? increase the torque on them?

Oil pump needs to work harder, It may cavitate at high RPM, the oil pressure may be too high at the upper rpm, there may not be enough volume in the sump to supply the oil pump, Oil may foam from the crank counterweights rotating into it at higher RPM than the factory intended it, (You can knife edge this to help the crank "slice" through the oil) or there is no restriction nipple in the oil line to the cyl head, allowing the oil pump to pump all the oil to the head instead of through the crank.

Bearings are rated to a load direction and rpm, Exceed these and you can get bearing failure, Piston speed as Joel has mentioned as one of his limitations on how big he designs his big bore engines, conrod strength, crank strength, How strong are your rod/big end bolts, even to how strong your case is.
Greater lift on a camshaft will push further on a spring, the more the spring is pushed the quicker it becomes weaker it becomes over time, Simple metal fatigue.

The more torque (twisting) the crank develops due to a much bigger bang, a larger heavier piston pushing down with more force against a conrod, eventually it will inturn exert more force on the timing chain, causing it to stretch prematurely, the cam can then start to go out of timing by a degree or more, It may even go that far out of timing that the valves start hitting the piston as your compression ration is that high there is not much room between the valve and piston! (yes worst case senario)
Not to mention the higher rpm's will cause your tappets to need more frequent adjustments. High RPM also affect other systems. If you have a water pump, will it be able to handle the high RPM? will it also cavitate or starve of coolant? Its not just a matter of getting a bigger piston, increase redline, airfliter, exhaust, cam, give it fuel and call it good.

Take the RB26 Nissan Inline 6 twin turbo engine for example, (Ok its not a 150cc single piston engine but a great example none the less)
These powered the 32,33,34 GTR. Basically a racecar on the street.
At high rpm, modified engines will starve the bottom end of oil as the oil will take the least path of resistance, the bigger opening in the cyl head over the small opening in the crank. Now, without changing out the oilpump for a pump with greater volume and partly blocking off the cyl head oil feed gallery your modified engine will run out of oil. It was proven time and time again.
Out of the factory these make 208kw (gentlemans agreement between the car manufacturers in Japan) Yet tuners make over 1400hp from these. Drive these 8second 1/4mile cars on the roads. How to make that amount of HP? Lots of boost, over 10k RPM, triple plate clutches etc.
How to support that HP? smaller pulleys to take into account the higher RPM's, dry sumps, fuel systems, oil coolers, gearbox modifications, crank girdles, stroker kits, forged pistons,rods,crank etc etc.
Look up JUN, HKS, TRUST, Top Secret Garage to name a few.

A fantastic example (and at the extreme end) of the lifespan of a modified engine is to take a look at a nitro funny drag car. These put out 5000hp+. the engine is rebuilt after every pass, Only the block is reused (if its within spec)
Each pass of the 400m 1/4mile is done in under 5seconds. (usually 3-4sec) Compare how many runs your family car can do the 1/4 mile and the time/hp output, then compare that to a top fuel dragster or nitro funny car. The blower on the funny car needs more power to turn than the average family car's engine output!

Making HP is not that difficult, More air in, More air out. Supporting and maintaining the parts to make the HP....Now that is the key.

I've noticed the oil pump gear on our bike engines are plastic, How long will a plastic gear last in a oily environment, going through numerous heat/cooling cycles. Will it become brittle over time?
Have these failed in the past?
Can we shim the relief valve to get more oil pressure? (if it can be shimmed) then will the plastic gear be able to withstand the additional psi?
At what point do these need to be replaced? and can you get metal gears?
Will they skip a tooth under high RPM?
Are there aftermarket oilpumps with more flow/psi for our bikes?
Can I retrofit oil squirters to squirt oil under the piston to help cool it?
Oil cooler kits available for our bikes? (my mech was designing some for our FZ's but decided not to persue this as he has developed the Yamaha Exciter kit and it fits the Byson in Indonesia) cooler oil means longer engine life
Pistons, rings, gudgeon pins, wristpins, How strong are these (of course much stronger than factory's cast piston)
Con rods bearing. What are these rated to?
Will these break along the cast lines or bend like a banana?
Crank pins, will these be strong enough? I know Joel has also taken into account this and limits his FZ kit accordingly.
etc etc.

As we move down past the engine, you get to the transmission.
Will the clutch be able to handle the additional HP/TQ?
The extra slipping will generate more heat, Can the present oil system handle the increased heat? Will I need to change oil more often than what is recommended in the service manual?
The gears, Will they be able to handle the extra TQ?
The selector fork, Will this snap or bend with the extra TQ?
The drive sprocket. Remember these are only held in by 1 bolt. How strong is that bolt, Will it shear under the stresses of a higher RPM? Its only a 8mm? bolt.
Will it work loose and cause the sprocket to wobble?
The chain. Can it handle the extra stress? Will I need to clean/lube/inspect it more often than the manual states?
The rim, Can the rubber blocks in the rear rim be able to absorb the increased power output the new engine is now making.
Will I also need to replace the rubber sections more often than a stock engine would need replacing.
etc etc/
These are just a few of the things you need to consider when upgrading, Hense me stating the engine life will be reduced, Sure it will be stronger than stock, However you won't be riding your bike like it was stock, Otherwise you wouldn't have modified it right?

I hope that helps put a bigger picture in your mind. There are many more factors involved but this will do for now.

first of all thank you for joining in the discussion as a satisfied customers, so now, we have as many satisfied customers as unsatisfied ones.


now, have you ever wondered why, the tone is like that, think for a while, what could be the reason. it will help.

also, have you ever wondered, why non-users (as you say) are so active in this thread. think.....it is bcoz, these non-users were once prospective customers of joel, but they couldn't find/get the answers to some basic questions they asked. and that is why they are trying to seek the truth. and that is also one of the reasons why they say that modified engine can not match the stock reliability.

and have you ever wondered why satisfied customers like you take so long to respond.

----------------------------------

all this time i was also wondering why most of the satisfied customers are not very active on xbhp. its not that only active members are true bikers, but i think i just spotted a trend.

Please go through the posts and threads of all the satisfied users with a clear mind of what you want and it may help you in getting your answer.

If you ask in an open forum like xbhp you will get replies from satisfied and dissatisfied users. You really wont be able to come to a conclusion until you experience Joels Mods first hand. Its upto you how you take it, how you comprehend all this, and if you are ready to invest your time and money.

Abhimanyu had once put it very nicely across why Joel was not replying back to queries from some of the prospective buyers. It was pretty straight forward and simple to understand.

it would be very helpful, if you can point me to that straight forward and simple to understand post, so i can put my doubts to rest.

I still laugh at this.

And this.

Hi Mik,

It's been great grasping knowledge from you but it's too difficult to understand all things as you said because of my mind's hadicap in vehicle mechanism.

Let me put things as they are running in my mind. Here in India 180cc engine are almost equal in price to the Yamaha Fz-16. May it be Pulsar 180 or Tvs Apache 180. Do you think there would be any load on the engine if you convert a 153cc to 180cc. By simple basic knowledge I understand that when a fibre chair is certified to carry a load of 120kg then it would be tested to carry a load of 140kg atleast as a precautionary measure so that the manufacturer doesn't have to get into the consequences of compensation if any injury happens to a person who is 120kg and falls and gets injured from that chair. Won't it be same with all the engine parts and all. Won't the manufacturers punish the beast to tolerate atleast by maximum of 20% than what is on the cards?

I think all the inner parts what you said can tolerate the 17cc bump and also higher compression ratio by trial method. Now just tell me as you converted yours into 200cc, I think you are going strong. it means the stock parts have taken the bump of 47cc which is nearly 3 times more than joel's setup. And finally it would be known when you open up the engine as you are going to do on 10k or 20k as you feel of what parts are messed up and by how much.

If you are again opening up the engine then won't you change the whole crankshaft, all the bearings and what all you know to more reliable and tolerable ones?

Maybe it's an eye opening for a reliable modd but if the same story happens in India then people will go for a new bike instead of modding it because when you change the whole bearings, camshaft, crankshaft, and lot all the bunch of things then the cost will be equal to owning a Duke 200.

Maybe it can be better when you ride the stock for say 50 k to 1 lac kms and then when the whole engine has messed up then the investor won't be reluctant to invest for full engine upgrade.

@ Prince
Honestly speaking Prince no one likes the idea either. However, you also have to realize, you do not have too many options when it comes to Tuning/mods in India. If you are looking for someone to perform Dyno runs on Joels Mods and then put the results , then I do not think it will happen any time soon.

There could be many reasons for that, first, users like me will not spend extra time hunting for places where dyno runs happen, and even if I get one, will not spend a fortune to see what the dyno says. The Mods are keeping me happy and have met my expectations, so I dont care what the dyno says.
Second, Tuners may have their own reason of not performing dyno runs, (from what I understand its very expensive in India)

In the absence of that, the only option remaining is you do your research (go through various articles/posts/blogs), analyse the information that you get (you may not get equal number of yes, no & neutral users) and then ask yourself if you are ready to take the plunge. Because Mods will require investing time and money.

If you are waiting for a definitive answer, then I guess you will have to wait forever.

As for me, when I was looking to Tune my ride, I did the same thing, and finally got Joels number from 10Ten Racing, and took the plunge. I havent been disappointed.

However, I have noticed one thing though, dis-satisfied users are R15 owners, and those are the owners who think they know more about engines,bikes etc and probably try to tinker around...I don't see any such trend with 220/FZ users. I am constantly in touch with Mumbai Guys who have got their 220 Joeled, and they are happy with reliabilty of Joels Kits.

Having said this, I do have a suggestion for Joel. I think Joel should probably also provide Support (Paid Support ) to his clients, especially people like me who know very little, and have to depend on Service Centre to get servicing or other issues resolved. I think if Joel provides Sales & Support (Paid Support) all under one roof, this will be soothing to present users & future buyers. As the mechanics outside know very little and more often mess up the perfect setup that you get after getting the Mods.

Regarding the post that you are asking for, I did try to search that post, but could not find. It was a conversation in some Thread between Abhimanyu and Argee, where Abhimanyu was explaining him about how if someone does not like to do business with someone, he will not show interest in replying back.

Hope you got the answers, if not, then I guess I cant put it in anymore simpler way. However I tried my best though.

Regardless of what vehicle I drive or ride, I always change the exhaust, airfilter, raise the boost (if turbo) as a minimum, Then start researching more mods to do.
This is what a "hotrodder" does, Never happy with the mass produced vehicles rolling out of the factory.
Once you get the speed bug you won't be able to shake it, Its like an addiction. Once you have a taste you want more. Its like smoking. You quit but years later you still get cravings for a quick puff, then after you feel the rush from the nicotine, the buzz, the tingles you realize how much you missed it.

This is what you have to look forward to!

Will the decision remain the same if you get a SBK like R1/Fireblade in future?

I shouldn't be replying on behalf of Mad Mik, but the answer to your question is WHY NOT? Are the no options to upgrade a R1 or a Fireblade... you may be satisfied with a modded R15 others may not be satisfied with a stock R1.

Just buying a larger displacement bike is not always the answer. Lets say you want more power you have two options.

1. Buy a bigger bike.
2. Get the existing one modded.

Totally upto the individual.

No offence to anyone also not the right person to speak for "Mad Mik" but I was reading "Mad Mik's " old post and he says - Once he get use to with the bikes power and performance he goes for modifications. So i guess if he ever buys a SBK - in 1 years time he will be hungry for more power and performance from his SBK

yes
Buy a bigger bike AND get it modified, though there is not much use for a big bike unless you go for a cruise away from the city.

Only downside is the cost of a big bike. Try over USD$30k++

One mild observation on my bike, it reacts a lot different in day when compared to night. During 3-4PM the bike performs with mind blowing acceleration and literally able to feel the throttle response at a slight twist on the accelerator. While returing at 2-3AM early morning it seems the bike feels a lot smoother, but apparently lost the throttle response feel. But still I dont feel the speedo to lose any momentum i.e., able to do over 140kays but feels like an electric bike even at 11K RPM. During 3-4PM you can expect typical Chennai climate well over 35 deg while at 2-3AM its almost freezing these days.

If climate has got so much to affect a bike's performance then why did I never notice this on the stock bike? How about you folks?