^^^ boss, why are you adding fuel to the fire? This discussion will get ugly like the past ones and the moderators will need to step in. Let it go. Everyone has their own experiences and it's their right to express it. Facts or not is something that each individual reader needs to decide on their own.

Bro,
I have refrained so far posting anything in this thread however, i donot like false information being spread out in the open. An experienced user can differentiate however for Noobs this becomes all the more confusing whom to believe. If the issue is with the product/kit/ service the person should put both perspectives.. if troubleshooting, what steps were taken to rectify it.. not just displaying one side of the coin.

All the posts so far putting in their disappointment on product.. have so far failed to mention what steps were taken to rectify it. Personally to me it seems all actions were taken with half knowledge which is as good as no knowledge about how engine performs. I guess i am stepping in too much so will post no further.

Would request mods to do step in decide what is right and what is not.. putting false information out in the open is something i believe XBHP doesnot promote or encourage.

Cheers,

There is a lot of said and unsaid words in this thread.....any modification to stock carries it's own risks,and where the variables are not closely monitored, and controlled, the end results are bound to be different from target.Let things be,as time will prove and truth will prevail.

PSR ji i have immense respect for you and other senior riders.. my sincere apologies for the outburst. But i stand for what i have posted.

Cheers,

There is absolutely no need to apologize, since you are expressing your views, WHICH YOU ARE ENTITLED TO.I was only suggesting that we should keep our mind open ,learn,and share...I had often found that there are more than TWO sides to a coin..

@shv18: thanks for posting that timing chart, i had it in my mind that me be that timing chart by harishk is fake, but refrained from mentioning. i will still not call it a fake, and let him come and explain his side of story.

others like psr and abhimanyu, plzz don't refrain from posting correct posts, it helps other members to take an informed decision and it helps to clear a lot of things, and we members want to know the truth.

as per my views, no tuner on xbhp has ever come out clean, be it joel or harishk. how many times we have asked joel a lot of things, which he delibrately skips, and now this ignition map thing.

i don't mind even if this thread becomes a war zone. let truth prevail or let untruthful ppl back out.

although joel may not be happy that his timing chart is up for view, which he must have prepared after some serious hard work, but it helped.

i do not understand why tuners and modifiers do not give correct and concrete information.

Well, the person who gave me this RC map (NV.Rohanraj) is very much alive, will request him to pitch. I can fwd you the map directly to your mail ID if you like. Honestly the maps that I seen from RC all look the same on ignition table. I will run a check from my end too once again to verify the versions...etc. While testing to see the AFR on RC map, the bike did crank and gave all the same experience that I had when I left Bangalore after the modds. Bro let me be very clear, I am in no competition to any performance tuner with regards to business, coz my LOB has nothing to with performance tuning. My woes are the ones who are affected dont bother to come back here and educate the fellow bikers about their experience, rather we still have those threads which have only sweet endings.

So your point is very straight any problems out of the RC tune, should lie on our end? , coz we are too noob for such advanced modds I suppose. Now how will a ring pop out in two pieces? How will a crank go bad in just a few 100Kms? My battery and starter clutch died out in just one week after the 165CC modd. While stock bikes are running just like that for ever. I suppose this should be taken even serious (Like requesting advice from YMSI) than taking it to modds, coz these baseless modds on a world class automobile not only ruins it, rather emotionally affects the owner. No ordinary minded biker will do modds on his 1+Lac asset, only an enthusiast will step in and get this awful experience and ridiculous finger pointing, if you like to see how its done. Just read below,

Keep the conv healthy, there is no need for me to fake anything here. I posted what I received. My motive is to educate the other side or rather the true side of this particular modification scene done on R15 (I do not advocate for any other bike), BTW just by seeing your map on a 165CC setup I suspect that you got to run a much richer mixture. Check your spark plug and update, it can be corrected much easily without the trial and error process. And another observation on the ignition front, the values should always be from acute to obtuse across the RPM/TPS range and never be in the other direction for open loop.

That is not finger pointing.. that is raising a plain and simple obeservation and query regarding steps taken..

Since, you do claim that this is merely just posting your experience and helping others.. i will just say, "i have the read the mails that have been exchanged"..

please do expect something good coming out soon in the open and cleared out once and for all.

Frankly all i see is subliminal advertising.. Period.

Cheers,

@ harishk: if we agree that your chart is not fake, then it remains one question, how did the bike managed to run...with those ignition timings?

I have been at workshops where the customer has returned and demanded his aftermarket ecu be unlocked so he can have full access to his mapping.
The tuner refused as he claimed it was "his" mapping/programming, Not the ecu which the customer has purchased. Its in a way closed source Vs open source, Android Vs Apple OS.

You are very fortunate for Joel to have allowed access to his maps, Regardless if it is a dummy or the full road tune. Many tuners will lock it to protect their long hours spent tuning. Imagine you have just spend 3days developing something for your business, Would you like someone to come along and just use it for free?
It is not as simple as plugging in a wideband O2 sensor and logging it, you have to get your base map, then start tweaking it, Dyno's can help but there is no dyno with a built in wind tunnel to simulate the wind/drag of the riders body on the engine.
Having said that there is the other side of the coin. The customer who has bought the ecu and want full access to it, I feel it should be on a individual basis with the tuner and the customer coming to an agreement. If the customer wants it unlocked to copy the map over onto his mates ecu for free then that needs to be dealt by the tuner and the owner of the ecu.

Broken piston ring
You said you had problems removing the piston from the cyl, Usually the piston remains connected to the conrod and the cyl slips up off the piston as there is no way of getting access to the wrist/gudgeon pin while its still in the bore. I think you got your words mixed up.
As for the rings falling into your hands, What ring was this? 1st? 2nd? Oil scraper, scraper tension rings (very doubtful it would be these 3 rings)

Do you have pics of the piston, If possible take photos of the sides with overlapping sections so we can build a complete image of it. I'm looking for escaped combustion gasses bypassing the broken ring.
Also the same again with the ring itself, and if you can macro closeup of the broken ends.
To break a ring usually happens on the install of the ring, Are there any telltale marks on the bottom of the cyl sleeve/bore where the piston slides up where the ring may have gotten caught and broke.
If it was broken on install then did you notice random idles where it can be smooth, then rough and smooth and rough etc.

Not looking to blame anyone but I'm just more curious for myself.

Please do not play with words. I very much know what I wrote. FYI, I dismantled the whole cylinder block myself along with my friend's help.

To remind you again, here is what I wrote -

As you can see, no force was used to dismantle the piston from the cylinder block.

I already have my answer - the kit was of substandard quality. The statistics speak for themselves. The majority of the people who have modded their bikes are not satisfied. Most do not come out in the open only because they fear that they will not receive any further support from the tuner. I could come out in the open only because I had decided to revert back to stock.

Please do not ask me to justify the statements given above with some proofs etc because I would not be able to provide any. My opinion is based on the interactions I had with various people both on this forum and off it.

I am based in Bangalore. Joel is based here too. Still I got my maps adjusted twice. At the end, things were running satisfactorily until this happened.

Where did I say all that? I guess you need to read my post once again. All I said was that when I removed the bore, the ring fell off. As I have already mentioned, it was the top most ring.

The install was done at the tuner's place. Things got bad in the last 1000kms. I doubt the install was the issue. The bore has mild vertical scratches. Nothing too deep. However, even after 7k kms, the bore still had hone marks. On the other hand, at similar kms, the stock bore had a smooth mirror finish. I would not be able to provide photos. The piston ring I threw off and the bore piston pack is packed away. The ring was in 2 pieces at 60:40 ratio.

My only intention in sharing my mod story is to spread awareness. There are various issues being discussed in this thread. I do not implicitly agree or disagree with any of them except what I say directly. So, if you have a genuine doubt about my experience, please do ask. My only request is that please keep an open mind.

Not playing with words then you need to re-read my post as well again. I have clearly mentioned that i have not questioned your intent about writing and i have also mentioned that good or bad it indeed shows a perspective of experience of tuning.

I was merely curious about whether you had taken any steps to try and rectify the issue. And after was that the result which you have mentioned on your post about the rings falling off? that's all.

My earlier post regarding why it can/may/will happen is based on experience with the builds i have noticed here in Mumbai for both TDR & RC kits while installing. A common mistake made by local mechanic when they try to push the BB kit hard or while dismantling apply excessive pressure..

Cheers,

so, what is the result, RC kits are good or bad or average or depends on luck... ??

No the map was not fake, I was totally wrong reading the map. I sincerely apologize for that. I will not remove my previous post but will put the same update below on the same previous post . The map I got from NV.Rohanraj was entitled for RR and needs to be opened in RTune EXT and I used RTune. Only the ignition table gets jumbled and all other values remain the same. You can try them too... I will provide you with the maps. NV.Rohanraj's map was quite similar to Shv18's map on the ignition table front on RTune EXT. Just the ignition table is displayed jumbled but the actual values on the map remains the same and hence I was able to crank up the bike and test the AFR too.


Yes we are talking with more emphasis on the "Error" part specifically. Coz when I went for modds, this particular disclaimer was never given by the tuner nor anyone in here.



FYI, I have an ad placed at XBHP classifieds and use the appropriate space to deal with business. I am happy that you see only subliminal advertising on this thread, coz you have to go around a few treads where advertising is done at full throttle. Anyways thanks bro for pitching in and would like more feedback and views from you on this thread.



We can buy a Powertronic ECU at RaceDynamics for 15000INR and they offer all support and keep the ECU unlocked, provide cables and user manual if you go for an RR or RR+ type ECU. I dont think the other tuners who sell RD ECU provide this support. We are fortunate to have Race Dynamics here in India, coz they offer the most affordable ECU package and their user manual and user interface is quite easy to access, unlike most factory tuning on ECU would be done at CLI.

For a engine to break the compression ring is quite rare, Unless the tune was that bad there was severe detonation involved, and then the piston will usually be the first to be damaged.
By any chance did you remember seeing any pitting on the top of the piston? (crown) To show detonation?
(I've broken ring lands on pistons before but never a ring, hense my curiosity in this. Had it been a melted piston/broken damaged piston then we pretty much know the answer to that.)

If this was the present then you should have a strong case for compensation. We all assume there was no bad fuel involved.
Speaking of fuel, was the same fuel used in the tuning of the bike, the same octane rating as the one you use to fill your bike? I know its a silly question but there have been some cases where the engine gets tuned on high octane pump fuel and the owner fills with lower octane pump fuel and wonders why his engine needs a rebuild....

Like we all know, this is the bumpy road to getting extra HP/TQ from our engines.
Good luck with your bike anyway mate, Seems like you have had a rough time with it, Hope it get sorted out for u.