It is actually something like the RD ECU can not accurately determine the firing angle when the engine dies down and hence detonation occurs. This is random and does not occur every time the engine dies.

Most probably wrong threshold levels,wave shaping,poor algorithms,and erroneous lookup table values....anyway Good you are not using it

Hey, The ECU unit is good, not as good as stock, but does the job pretty well (Coz mine is 180CC and stock/daytona ECU cannot feed well). I know the issue with your ECU the real culprit is the map that is on it, got a chance to see a similar RC ECU map from NV.Rohanraj. The map contains one of the biggest errors on Ignition timing. The ECU manual says the firing angle can be customized upto a max of 50 degrees, but the RC map has random values here and there and at places its 0 and suddenly it shoots to 248 and so on. You are correct its like a poison to the engine, and NV.Rohanraj has lost his crank thrice.

Below is the last RC map which NV.Rohanraj's bike ran into a crank failure.




I have totally removed all values from the ECU Map and redid it completely, even the cold start-idle wait period is cutoff to a great extent, that is the bike will stay at 1.7K RPM until the engine reaches the prescribed ECT value. Previously it was an annoying 3.5K RPM. Also before the idling at high temp will be like 1.8K RPM and 1.2K at low temp, But now the compensation for idle control has been increased at higher engine temp, so that my cold idle is at 1.3K and 1.5K at peak temp.

Today aint the best of my days, so on Saturday will check my spark plug and update the screenshot of my map. I will show you the maps with Errors which caused a series of failures. If you have an RR version of ECU then you can compare the maps and see if yourself.

UPDATE: THE SCREENSHOT OF THE MAP POSTED HERE WAS READ ON THE INCORRECT S/W VERSION HENCE THE VALUES ARE JUMBLED, HENCE I HAVE REMOVED IT AND SINCERELY APOLOGIZE FOR THIS ERROR...THANKS...

^^ This is the map? Its a bunch of random values!!!!

Like I said the Internal Look up Table is jumbled as the numbers show...

i am not into the kind of stuff, you guys are discussing, i even does not have a bike that have an ECU. but if that picture/chart shows ignition timings at various RPM's and the data in the table is angle in degrees at which the spark plug is fired, then there is something fishy....

because the values look like so random...

how will the bike run, with such random firing..??

is it from RC (Joel)...??

may be possible, that it is just a dummy table to fool anybody trying to decode the data, and actual values may be stored somewhere else, in some other register, some other memory, some other chip or at some other memory address location.

or may be the numbers have a different meaning, like if i wanna say 25 deg BTDC, then i may write -25 and a value of 360-25=335 may also have same meaning.

or may be the algorithm have encryption facility and it does decryption as per a set algorithm and then feed the actual values.



if i sound foolish, plz pardon me.

btw, i wanna know this ECU programming is done in assembly language or through some software..?? and if through software, to decode a particular ECU, you will need the software of that particular company and that particular model.??

and does this mean joel purchase ECU from some other third party and you also got software from the same party...??

i am just curious.

^^^ Now this is getting candy!!! My eyes are stuck here for next update!!
Frankly speaking i am not against any mods to engine!!
If you want to modify then do it with right way which would include increasing a bhp by atleast 5-7bhp.

upgrade the Tyres which will support the speed and power produced by this.

A mere 2-3bhp i don't think is worth messing up with an engine in any ways!!

Just getting a top end more by 10kmph does this really justifies a mod???

For me no, I am not against anybodies thought or process, but INMO it's nothing but F***ing your engine to great extend.
becuase this mods need money and good money, where as you have CBR in other hand with more 30k investment and enjoy the power and speed with good reliable tech.

This is the ECU Joel sources - PowerTRONIC - Plug-in ECU for Yamaha R15 and Enfield Classic 500 | racedynamics.in

It has a software supplied along with it to read/write the values - RTune (for RD0901, PowerTUNE and PowerTRONIC) | racedynamics.in

Joel loads his maps using this. If the mapped in not 'locked' it can be read by anyone. That screenshot is taken via this software.

Since this is a aftermarket ECU, everything is designed such that end user can alter the maps. SO, nothing like dummy tables etc here.

ok, i got help from google uncle, and downloaded the tunning software, its pretty simple and straightforward, unless you know what all parameters are doing. and i have difficulty understanding what some of the parameters are doing, but then i am no tunning expert.

i got answers to some of the questions i asked in previous post.

but, may be the ECU that RD is supplying to RC, is a bit different than what is available off the shelf, and maybe his software is different than what is downloadable from internet, and that is why random values you are seeing on software.

afterall, there's a business interest to be protected, otherwise anybody can download the software and start tuning just by copying joels values.

just my guess.

OT: @harish: can you suggest something to increase the power of my P150 UG3 without compromising on reliability.

what is the cost of this RD ECU...??

Fudging the map is possible, but I am not the only person using such an ECU, there are many all around India and if they use an RR version of ECU then they can read the maps themselves. I have requested Abijeet080808 to read his map from RD or another tuning station at Banglore and lets see what happens. There is one other trick played here, if you get an RR type ECU from RD they supply a cable with user manual for 15K, while the same RR ECU is sold for 1K more at RC without cable and user manual. Trust me all the maps that I have seen have almost the same table on Ignition timing, no wonder the range of problems it results in. I never wanted to update the info about Maps, coz it may run down the business for many. But still awareness is good, coz each manufacturer invest millions of $$$ on R&D and take years to develop ECUs. While we were able to do it just like that....

Find the Ignition table in my ECU which was compensated for my setup and the exact increase in geometry and flow. I used an 02 sensor and guidance from Indo/Malay tuners to end up here. It seems to work as expected in the testing phase, no cold start, idling issues and no dead spots or jittery throttle response. Its as linear as the stock ECU across the rev range. But still I suspect the firing order could be more on higher RPMs so preparing a final map this weekend and thats it I am done with modds. I have shared the same map with Rohan and hope he is running fine too. I will write about the reason why the values are present in each cell, but for now you can assume it the X axis is RPM and Y axis is TPS, throttle position sensor value. So hope you got the reason why the lower TPS at higher RPMs are left untouched, coz the engine will simply never operate there.




Above is the definition from RD user manual. Regarding OT, I dont want to continue here and I hope were are friends on FB.




Bro I got an offer to sell my R15 for 90K with all the modds and still the buyer was negotiating. If I added a few more stuff from my backyard I could have got a lakh and gone for another bike. But thats not what I want. Modds are good only when you know what you are doing and what result will it obtain. Back in 2008 I complained to the svc that my R15 horn is totally useless and any possibility to add one more, the svc guy told me no way and if I do modifications, I am losing out reliability. Its been 50K Kms and I still use stock dual horns with independent relays. No horn squeaking at highbeam at all. Likewise a famous tuner here who wanted to keep up his FFE sales commented that removing cat-con on stock R15 exhaust will endup disastrous. Its about 15K Kms on my bike off cat and all my friends who removed still enjoy a 5Kmpl mileage and rev friendly engine. We almost forgot that cat-con removal part.

If at all you come down to Chennai, take my bike for a spin and let me know if I was wrong. That mere 2-3 Bhp makes me feel happy than owning any other bike, coz my non-compromised extra power is on an R15 and I hope you understand my point.


Simple answer to your question, if you gift a sum of 3.5L to A and B, A has Alto in mind and B has Ninja250 then its almost impossible for you to make them switch. I am inclined on R15 due to its capabilities which I still don't find on any bike and I modd it safely under its limits with high precision, branded and quality parts that are near about to stock in terms of reliability. (Best example is the Sprocket, Cam omission on my setup which will make things much complex to work on)

Yes Bro i was expecting this answer from you!!
Yes i am wrong, happiness is in what self like is not what world says!!
Excellent Work Bro!! Self Tunning is exceptional!!

BTW till now, what amount have to invested in your mods??

Any ideas to extend it to more power with some good tyres changes with swing arms ??

This is true : Nothing Runs like R15 in terms of confidence and Stability!!

@ harish:

1) now your values in the attached pic, makes sense to me.
2) at higher RPM's your values are fairly constant, as you have explained.
3) 15000 for an ECU seems too costly to me.
4) ok, little more knowledge sharing, so in ECU tunning, we are basically changing the fuel map, i.e. either make AFR rich or lean, most probably i would like to make it a bit rich and supply some additional air by a free flow air-filter, and second thing we do is ignition timings, right? but deviating too much from stock values won't make it unreliable and prone to problems??
5) in RD ECU or any other brand ECU, is it possible to change between stock and custom settings on the fly while riding, like by a switch or something??? consider this i have an RD ECU in my R15, but i fear for reliability or whatever, i want to operate it normally like stock, but should be able to change to custom setting while riding. like i am riding peacefully on a highway, on stock settings, when someone zoom past me making some signals to race with him, i take the bait, shift my settings and kick his ass.

buddy, i am not very fond of facebook, so can we start a new thread for discussing what modifications can be done on pulsar 150.?

1st time about 18K on Joel modds, 6.5K Block, 10K RS ECU and 1.5K Airfilter. In which the Block turned out to be a loss. About 10K on service costs due to block seizures and side effects. Next 8.5K on UMA block and 7.5K on TB and 4K on 10 Hole FI and other titbits sums upto 25K but this time nothing from my pocket as I mentioned initially it was in exchange to the profit earned on selling R15 goodies via facebook. So I would quote a 35K for the total modds on R15 to bump it safely upto 24BHP without any compromise anywhere (Smooth, Silent and much powerful). Which is much more than any other bike could do under the 2L price tag.

Yes I would love to fit tires from abroad of the same profile, but the big concern is that I cannot trust the local ones selling here coz I am almost partnering with them and know whats going on there. Next we cannot import tires like other parts coz it will not have ISI mark and will become a serious issue at customs. So have to stick with stock MRF my tires are totally bald. Got a set of new stock tires will swap them very soon.

My ECU is RS type and costed me 10K at RC and I am all happy with the purchase till date. ECU tuning is a bit more complex than AFR tuning. One flaw here is R15 is open loop and a closed loop would have done the entire job much easily and cut down the need for a custom ecu. With the RD ecu we are not deviating much from the stock.

Yes ECU calibration and tuning is done real time operating the bike at each gear along with the machinery and one company does it in Mumbai and they quoted me 50K for this task. The remote map switching option is present in RD ECU for cars I suppose and bike ecu don't have that option. Also ECU is not hot swappable, you have turn off ignition and switch between ECUs. So even you device a complex switch mechanism to switch between ECUs its not going help coz switching ECUs on the run is not possible. Regarding your P150 just update in the appropriate thread and pm me the link.

Well Bro..

a plain request, please don't spread false rumours! i am putting up a screen shot of ignition timing sequence (that too only part of it!!) of a map sent by Joel to us for getting a better output on Abhimanyu31s R16 with a 165cc set up pretty similar to what you had.

I will not post the whole map sequence as i donot want Joel's hard work out in the open up for grabs for free.

165cc Ignition timings:




Also a part map of the R170 ignition timings ( This particular map is the glitchy one which was giving us trouble in Mumbai sea level as the atmospheric conditions in Mumbai are different.)

173cc R170 timings:



And the Map posted by you in your earlier post:



All the ignition timings that have been posted by your map are just random numbers and complete FAKE and indeed doctored!! The engine simply won't crank with such parameters!!

For the Noobs: Ignition timing is basically the ECU or the computer brain of the FI engine R15 controls when the spark will take place during the power stroke of an engine. With a programmable ECU, the ignition/spark of a spark plug can be timed to the 100th of a second for ensuring that the engine produces the best spark at the right time to assist in best combustion of the air and fuel mixture inside the cylinder. The above ignition timings posted by HarisK's screen shot and mine are just ignition timings, they are not the complete map! A complete map will also have the fuel flow and other parameters which can be custom tuned by a user/ read PROPER TUNER.


HarishK, you want to have a healthy competition in the market with your offerings.. we all users are more than happy to have it on the table.. It is giving us more options out in India.. but please kindly do it with some dignity!! Spreading false rumours not right!! It will backfire one day..

Cheers,

From what i can understand from your post, if i am correct your mechanic tried to forcefully removed the piston out of the block which resulted in the ring getting damaged and thus falling in your hands. The big bore kit piston and piston rings have much tighter tolerances when compared to stock. So when installation or even dismantling is taking place, one has to be careful while taking out the piston or else the piston rings will get damaged/warped/break into two.

I would not judge you or your build as it is your experience with the kit and will help putting up another perspective about the negatives of the same. However, just wondering howcome you didn't raise the issue with the supplier/the tuner itself. Would have helped atleast to understand why did this happen at the first place? end of the day you have indeed spend considerable amount of money so wouldn't you want to know why it happened?

Were the engine parameters for the ECU tuning were apt for your set up? We had the same problem with the R170 when it reached Mumbai. The culprit was the tuning which was somehow not apt for the sea level conditions. So we sent the map back to the tuner, got the new parameters and then tried it again and now it works just fine. One can check Abhimanyu31's thread to check the history we have mentioned so far there.

Hot roding is a process of trial and error. My thoughts.

Cheers,