Bro, let me repeat, this thread is heading towards proper awareness on Modifications and the worst possible outcome which has troubled most of us here.

Ok for the Hard-fact part that you need, just go through the thread responses, you would find many XBHPians who blew up their engine with cheap 165CC blocks that were marketed here, isnt that enough?

No matter how many ever times you say "baseless", the thread is strongly based on my experience or our experience (comments) and the level of trust I kept on the tuner and his words, in-turn I got my brain eaten and pockets burnt. I will never want even my dearest enemy to undergo such an uninformed tragedy.

As mentioned in the thread my close friend (Boon) sold his 1yr old R15 for peanuts, just coz he went for this 165CC block and stalled 5 times. You know the sad part of the story, the last time when the 165CC block fried up, we had to rebuild the entire engine with stock parts and sell it, I still have the bill etc with me and what fact you need? Or shall we send a detailed email to Yamaha India about the reboring stuff and request for a response?

I was shocked to know the 165CC that I had with me was the least quality one available in the south-east and I could get one for 2.5K or even less when ordered in bulk, I am open to give you the contacts.

I agree with your 1st point, yes myself an addict to modds and the thread is all about the other side of the coin as Joel mentioned before. So let the rookies get more awareness, coz since I was affected last year, the count of block seizures have multiplied till date.

There are many threads here which directly marketed a product and they put me in trouble and I request you to read the thread again, I mentioned a tuner contact there just if incase anyone needs advice and also I have mentioned about the Tuner's thread in XBHP as the best place . so am I canvasing for XBHP???

The installation steps are not at all required if you ask me, Lets say if a block with user manual was shipped to Delhi and a mechanic is given this user-manual before installation and the block gets seized, again the poor mechanic in Delhi will be held responsible and pointed out. For your kind information my 1st attempt of reboring was done in Bangalore at the tuners place right under his nose.

Please direct me to the post on this thread which discussed the right way to get a performance modification done. I may have missed it.


I had been to (arguably) the BEST Authorized service center in India and i was disheartened with the treatment received. Should have shot an email, the more I think of it.

Nothing is wrong with my setup. Though the FFE gave real good performance, I reverted to stock exhaust as the cops were just about getting ready to flag me down on my usual route to office.

Well, I dont intend to push the boundaries of speed on our roads. For me, the max one should do on our roads is 100kmph. Having said that, I would love to have the thrust when i need it. And this setup offers more than just that. As other members have quoted, its a torque monster now. And for a person who has owned only pulsars the refinement this setup offers is really good.

I would like to say they were unlucky, but how can luck be responsible if the the setup with the same specs giving positive results as well. And for those who were 'unlucky', did Joel ever say he is not going to help them out.

you thought I ought to have written to Bajaj for a better service. Following the same could have given them positive results as well, right?

aargee, As you already know, dynos don't come cheap therefore he has to get it done outside and not many places offer them. I think they are available in Race dynamics, Red Rooster Racing and likes in Bangalore. They are premium setups and make it expensive again.
I am not sure if you are following the facebook page for RC. He has a lot going for him apart from bikes. He will take time.
Also, I would like you to read the thread he has created on TBHP for his modifications done on Honda City. you will see the simplicity of the mods and the outcome in the form of dyno readings.

You would think I am a fanboy. But i want you to take a look at the above points before i can call myself the devil's advocate .

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with any tuner here or abroad.

So, nothing new here....people dissatisfied with a product whose side effects caught them unprepared. How many times hasn't this happened?

Would these mods sell as much if the 'consequences' side of this biz was already known in the market? Heck no. Withholding information\generalising is common practice in business. But atleast there is no false advertising by the tuner in question.

Glad that these things are out in the open now. People can be more educated as to the actual cost(not just interms of money) these mods entail. As for me, Id still put my hands on performance mods, but only upon deciding what I really want from my bike. I couldnt give a rat's ass for the number of bhps increased in my bike, so long as I can find practical use for the extra power, so that the cost of installation, the lessened service interval and restlessness over the assumed unreliability are justified. Id look at it in a similar way if I purchased a new bike too.

Rest of the case seems circumstantial and finger pointy.


@aargee: cant understand what you'd do with just bhp figures. If you want the bhp figs, why not the whole dyno chart which would be more useful? + Aren't the 0-60, 0-100 timings an indicator of how much power the bike has gained?

Also, I had to say this.....the way you choose to place those "you'd", "he'd" "I'd" etc shortforms, just doesn't sound right.

@aargee - I have to bump in here, coz for the millionth time you are accusing me of the Honda CBR mods
I have posted my dyno curve with the stock engine v/s the cylinder head tweek.
I also have the vbox logs and Overdrive magazine themselves have logged the data. Also v/s the akrapovic exhaust system where we scored so much higher than that, with my exhaust system that we built in 2 days flat. The exhaust v/s stock dyno was also done.
We have also done stock v/s the tuned CBR comparo on the v-box. What else do you want?
I have had my own chores with my life over the last few months and finding time on the CBR project was hard as I had other prorities with the cars and other race engines. So do you wanna nail me for it? Time and again you have been talking about it. On-road performance is more realistic than dyno numbers. Any moron can fake a dyno plot by changing the trim values, did you know that?
A dyno is not a cheap investment and it will take us a while to have one on our own. When we do, I'll serve a plot for breakfast, lunch and dinner for every engine I build. Lets talk then.
While most of the reputed race teams itself in this country or rather big tuning houses dont have a dyno, we are still at a budding stage. We have been sharing a dyno and have constraints finding dyno time. And dyno runs dont come cheap. How about 1k for 10 secs sound to you? An hour on the dyno will cost about or over 20k depending on the run time.
Which is why we resort to baseline curves and then stick to track tune to optimise the package. Which has always given the best results.

Now, another thing you always make is HOW ON EARTH do I claim such horsepower.
Well, just to quickly brush you, my race R15 clocks 0-100kph in under 5.5secs, which is in the range of what a Ninja 650 clocks. the bike weighs 92kilos dry pls fluids additional and runs all the works. 163cc and has been the most reliable engine in the grid for the last 2 years with numerous lap records. The street engines have clocked as low as 7.2secs in its full form and clocked 0-400mtrs in around 15 secs flat and with full body mass and the weight reduction only being the exhaust system. We will have a few videos soon. Do some math on the horsepower. I for sure have my horsepower logs.
Engine power does not come from a large block alone, which is what you are always refering to. I always wonder why people here always talk about more cc and more cc and a larger bore alone give u horsepower. As if, it could give u some supernatural power. Every engine has its limitations even with a bigvalve head or whatever cam to not make power reliably after a certain point. A big reason why I stick to just a 10% bump in cc at max. Indians are greatly excited over big cc upgrades, while not knowing what the harm is. Dyno queens are not always fast and dyno tunes are not always perfect. There is so much outside the dyno. Which is why I resort to baseline tunes and not full dyno reports. The vbox tells you a different story.
Time will speak for itself.

Joel

^^^ also dyno results vary from different make to different make of dyno. The results can also vary from run to run on the same machine. And let's talk about different dynos. There is the inertia type, the eddy current type, the break type. Don't be surprised if you put the same bike on these different types of dynos and get highly varying figures. Variation can be as high as 20%.

Dyno is a measuring tool for indicative purposes. It is not a reflection of real world performance, which can be very different from the story that dyno results are telling you.

Well I talked to Harish last year, he was unhappy to say the least, but then I talked to so many others, they were ecstatic.
Now I am in a huge dilemma

what do i do ..get the bike Joel'ed or get it Harish'ed :P

I never called it one.

True.

Agreed, only thing is he should have kept two things separate by starting two different threads for it. If you have a superior product/service sell on its own merit rather than bad-mouthing competition, no? The thread in its present form, doesn't provide a feedback about a service provider but just bad mouths competition. That's how I intrepret it because both the issues are clubbed.

I would have agreed to this wholly and not a made a comment at all in this thread if the opening post talked only of his experience with modding and how it went wrong. When OP posted about some other tuner, wrote about his own business interest, etc in the 1st post, thats when the plot was lost. As a layman, what I felt after reading the entire thread is, its like the cola ad wars. How they keep mocking at each other in trying to sell their own product

Yes, if it is a common topic. Not a personal dealing between Mod and a service provider. From what I understand, Samarth has been asking Joel for performance enhancement parts and Joel hasn't responded. This is purely between two parties and there was no need to vent personal frustration on a public forum. I've never seen any mod so far bringing up their personal issues on forum. If there has been a change in this thought, well what I can say-No words.

WTH & where's he? Why're these ppl not coming forward to share their feedback? Are they afraid or what

Pls go back previous page; I've 40 post per view, so I really don't know how many pages you need to go back; best option...read from post #1.

PRECISELY!!! This is exactly what was being discussed...NEVER do a mod out of the law/RTO. I was wondering why PSR Ji said this point, this point proves it!!!

No problemo, but that was an example for RELIABILITY.

All these people were unlucky Well, 1 defect out of 6 million is 6sigma, 5 million out of 6 million is...

Which means all the performance mods are based on the outcome of luck & not process oriented

All other points accepted other than dyno, which I'm answering below

My friend, forget the dynos now, pls tell me, how would you measure the performance gain before & after modification of any vehicle.

Oh!!! ok, then pls tell me what would be right & I will (I'll) start using it. I thought they were standard English grammar & using short cuts were far better than SMS language

PS - Its not sarcastic question (for those who think it is), because ('cause) that's the way we communicate in the emails within the office & with our clients for over 12+ years & no one complained. Would like to correct if there's any.

I'm sry if it offends you as much as we'd when your posts on CBR 250R went unanswered for so many days.

All accepted points, if you're saying dyno is expensive, then what is the difference between Race Concepts Joel & a mechanic in workshop here at Thiruvanmiyur or Egmore? I thought RC was far superior in providing services & your participation with Apex & producing country's fastest R15 and taking performance tuning as a serious business, shouldn't a dyno be there in the first place or do you think I'm missing something

What else I want? The edit part - http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/750895-post.html

Kindly show CBR 250R producing more HP than the green machine, which I presume its Ninja 250R.

Apologize if you thought it that way, like I said before, we were anxious to see the result as the first few posts said the results will be out in few days, but then over months, the steam seems to be lost on the thread

May be, but, how does one measure performance before & after mod? Should we go with dyno OR hypothetical numbers?

Hmmm...true...but anyone can also become a moron with the roads as well; for instance, try the Krishnagiri-Vellore stretch that is faster than Vellore-Krishnagiri; Pondichery-Tindivanam than the Tindivanam-Pondichery; very live examples. These are my observations that can be tested at any point in time. Besides is that the standard method of testing? As a performance tuner, you know better than I do. Are videos the standard way to test the output of the machine? Like I asked earlier, if videos were standard, then Bajaj could show their Pulsar 150 beating CBR 250R & claim they've improved Pulsar 180 isn't it?

Well said, I fully agree with you on this one & I'm all for this; a 149.8cc R15 engine bumping up a mere 2-3 bhp at crank sounds awesome.

Then why do we have so many failures reported here? From your R15 race experience stated above, ideally there could be one out of blue moon. Is time speaking for itself now?

What to do ?

I'm in a dilemma now...wish I had never seen this thread !
The success Joel got from his r15 and pulsar goodies made him the best and the most reputed person at modding in almost the entire country ! ( that is no small feat btw ).
He is an Engineer and not just another mechanic, that is the best part....but now he is being targeted for his work....I saw Harish's profile yesterday and the irony is, under the "Best Mechanic you have come across" question its still Joel...Im not saying he has to change that now or anything like that....no offence...but after what he experienced his opinion about RC has changed....but like Joel pointed out in a post ( I don't remember the post number, but its contained in just a few pages back ) many people who are extremely happy with their work are not bothered to post about it....and on the other hand a few guys who got it all completely wrong have posted enough to create lots of confusion among others who would have probably taken a step back by this time to not mod their bikes...or still remain in confusion like 'abhi_underdog' said whether to get our bikes " Joel'ed or Harish'ed " !

aha +1.After My head Work If my Bike Clocks 0-100 in 7.2secs then i will see CBR in My Rear Mirror..!!

Sir, No one is intrested on selling anything via this thread, my business is mentioned here to show how a noob biker ended up after one year journey of his modds. Tuner contacts are mentioned to keep the thread straight and for fellow members who need advice. If I had to advertise my products, I can very well open a new thread in XBHP and moreover there are many threads here which start with their modd experience and directly market the respective products, did you post any comment like these??? this clearly shows your intentions on this thread. I request you to kindly stop discussing OT and deviating from the thread topic and I repeat myself clearly my Business has nothing to do here and stop cribbing about it.

Objectively, you pay for real world performance. It'd make more sense to check it in the real world. There could be a night and day difference between what a dyno says about a vehicle and how it drives in the real world.

> 0-60, 0-100 vids make sense.
> (personal) comparisons between a stock vehicle and modified vehicle side by side are the best.

I don't deny it either; all I'm saying is a video along with dyno is welcome.

Absolutely; also it depends upon a 55Kg person riding R15 & 110 Kg person riding CBR 250R

Did you have chance to check the post I quoted about on CBR 250R making more power than Ninja? Your take on it?

BTW, atleast let me know my mistakes on the English through PM. I'm serious about it. Tks.

For ppl like Akel & anyone who're confused - Pls note we're not advocating anything against Mr.Joel or his work. Once again I repeat, this thread is all about the pros & cons of performance tuning (and I've shared my bad experiences as well). This intention of this thread is to serve as a guide/precaution/material to go through before getting into any performance modification, like the other thread http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/pit-stop...-concepts.html where the member said 25Bhp was promised on 170cc motor on the existing modification.

@aargee: if dyno is the only way to show HP Gains and overall feel of a bike.. Then I must be an idiot posting videos and doing extensive write ups of performance before with bone stock and then changes in the character post installation. I should have then dynoed my ride and then posted the charts first on the thread to verify the HP gains right? While logically you may sound right the fact remains RC is just a small set up where they are slowly and steadily growing and its the overall response/ testimonials (read unbiased or not being bribed for) that is driving other riders to try out hot rodding. Whatever claims they have made, I have personally tested Abhimanyu's R16 and my friend's R170 which has destroyed a duke 200 that too without trying hard.

Dyno is not a next door machine where one can walk in pay 100 bucks and see the figures. If I were to dyno my ride under practical and financial conditions it would cost me more than the whole power up kits set up I would be going for my next set of upgrades. Power is equal to work done divided by time taken. Therefore if I am able to do 0 to 100 in a whooping 3 to 5 seconds less than a stock, the bike naturally power has increased right or am I talking gibberish? Dyno for every ride is financially not feasible for RC at this moment. I know it seems like I am sounding bit more like a fanboy in this regard but I would simply request all the members to put forward arguments with practicality involved.

@The Thread starter: if the approach is towards selling and offering your services as a tuner/ a performance parts provider then please do so but without mud slinging. You have full support from us all as it will only benefit the community with more options on the platter. The current thread at the moment seems to be more of a marketing thread. Keep the experiences seperate and the product offerings seperate otherwise you are losing the plot like few people have mentioned before.

I know I sound rude and would apologise right away to everyone.. But it just seems to me that this thread has been designed as a hate thread rather then being a productive one.

Signing off for good.

Cheers,

I don't understand why suddenly people started bashing Aargee, just because he wants proper proofs in form of dyno charts and people blasting Harish just because he had a bad experience with mods from RC. I have had my share of good experience as well as sh*t loads of headache with the mods. My only concern was why the negatives and flip sides weren't highlighted while positives and bumps were advertised like anything. No second thoughts about gains but for a prospective buyer to make an informed decision, the negatives should have been told.
It's all about taking the criticism positively and not making a mess out of it. In this thread I see people blasting Harish and Aargee for their bad experiences and curious concerns. Just because one had a smooth experience with RC mods doesn't give him license to point fingers at others(with bad experiences with RC mods) with lame accusations.
Please keep the thread clean and non biased. Because of this fan boy bashing, hardly a bad experience comes out, while loads of first day reviews with praises on reliability comes(no offense to serious reviews, specially prateek and digislayer ones, who helped me in sorting things out).