ns owners are riding their new bikes at 4000rpm during run-in and getting a mileage of around 40kmpl ,, whereas i got 44kmpl from my duke and i rode it only in bangalore city traffic everytime ..i am happily revving it till 6000rpm everytime ..the mileage was calculated by tankfull method ..
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i even disagree to the fact that ns is more fuel efficient than duke ..Originally posted by maverick1 View Post
ns owners are riding their new bikes at 4000rpm during run-in and getting a mileage of around 40kmpl ,, whereas i got 44kmpl from my duke and i rode it only in bangalore city traffic everytime ..i am happily revving it till 6000rpm everytime ..the mileage was calculated by tankfull method ..Last edited by Rohan200ns; 07-27-2012, 12:21 PM.
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Originally posted by Old Fox View PostNOTE: This is a gross OT post as this is a Duke 200 ownership thread but the sheer dismissive posturing of your post towards genuine and engineering logic dictated efforts of the R&D of our country's principal two-wheeler manufacturer perforce compels me to reply here. We can take this discussion further in a separate and new thread if you feel so.
The use of multiple plugs in engines has been around since the early years of aviation though the reason there was a need for a back-up substitute of a critical component in the interest of engine reliability rather than a gain in combustion efficiency. The gain though was there and in that case an incidental benefit.
The 'deficient' flame-front is just one of the many issues addressed through the use of multiple plugs. A small 200cc engine here is expected to produce good tractability at low rpm's allied with sufficient power at high rpm's with a low fuel consumption and also to meet with strict emission norms. Even basic awareness of reciprocating engine parameters puts it in the clear that the first two of the above are conflicting requirements unless supported by allied flow or combustion enhancing technologies that work in tandem with the basic engine. Things like variable intakes, variable cams, dynamically switchable maps etc. A 200cc engine fed through a carburetor has an appreciable specific power output in the range of 117 bhp/ltr without using a high compression ratio (a parameter that invariably creates more issues than it solves due to the ubiquitous adulteration in the fuel sold to us in this country) needs some special measures to harness as much combustion efficiency as can be done. Add exotic technology for the same and see the price shoot up. The Duke makes do with a single plug but runs an FI system with a high compression ratio and does not return the fuel efficiency figures that the 200NS engine does.
The 'bigger' engines do not really need multi-plugs. True. But for reasons that there's other stuff to substitute for this 'not so easy' way out. Will come to the difficulty a little later. The reasons first. 1) there's enough cc's around to produce enough low end torque with better flow even without special measures and the engine can be designed keeping high-end power output in mind 2) the really thermally efficient (high specific power output) engines have a slew of technological gadgetry that assists flow and combustion control. 3) these engine invariably rely on high compression ratios to flatten the torque curves and take the power higher 4) flexibility is not a prime requirement and so the engines' characteristics can be purpose-specific in design.
The 3-plug head is a casting engineer's worst nightmare. Maintaining dimensional tolerances in such a thermally intensive and mechanically punishing environment with a head perforated like 'Swiss cheese' is not what any engineer would want to design to unless the gains outstripped the problems by a large margin. If only I could share with you the flame propagation time comparison of the 3-plug head vs a single plug and the DTSi engine, the peak flame temperatures, the temperature gradient wrt to time and the peak cylinder pressure vs enthalpy curves would it be a lot easier to convey the elegance of the 3-plug head as an engineering solution. The NS200 engine btw meets with the stricter emission norms without the need for a catcon or any other ancillary support componentry.
If we strip away all the extraneous info there, your basic thesis is that the triple plug arrangement essentially has the alleged single benefit of improving emissions. If you're honestly saying that Bajaj can't get an even burn in a combustion chamber with a smaller diameter than a shot glass without resorting to the ridiculous solution of three spark sources, especially in a low-compression combustion chamber where you won't have a convoluted piston crown to have to work around, I'm left with no conclusion other than they have crap engineers. They could just as easily have accomplished that with twin plugs, were it warranted, or firing a single plug a second time during the exhaust to eliminate any unburnt fuel. However, as I also pointed out, it's just as likely to be a marketing gimmick (especially since there's another Indian manufacturer that already has a twin-plug bike). The fact that no other manufacturer has ever needed to resort to that solution is proof enough.
India isn't the only country where motorcycles need to have both low-end torque and top-end horsepower. That's a constant pretty much everywhere in the world, as a consequence of the way motorcycles have to be ridden (slow in the corners, then quick acceleration back up on the straights). A good example is the older Yamaha Genesis motors, which had 5 valves, requiring a piston crown that had so many indentations it looked like a golf ball (and thus a combustion chamber with many convolutions and pockets), and yet they managed with a single spark plug. My own GSXR1100s both had single plugs, despite being carbureted and producing far more horsepower per litre than the NS200 (and with wider combustion chambers to boot). Before you protest that those are multicylinder bikes, keep in mind that modern off-road bikes need that spread of power too, and none need a three-plug head to achieve efficient power production, even from 125cc motors.
The reality is that Bajaj has to do something to make the NS200 stand out, since it would otherwise be eclipsed by the Duke's shadow. With today's computer modeling, creating a 3-plug head is not the challenge it would have been even 5 or 10 years ago, especially since much of the final work can be done with milling machines rather than requiring the casting to be unusually complicated. No doubt Bajaj felt the extra cost of the design would be recovered through sales, since the NS is otherwise a relatively unremarkable motorcycle.Last edited by The Mountain; 07-27-2012, 02:07 PM.ATGATT: All The Gear, All The Time!
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+ ++++ 1Originally posted by The Mountain View PostIf we strip away all the extraneous info there, your basic thesis is that the triple plug arrangement essentially has the alleged single benefit of improving emissions. If you're honestly saying that Bajaj can't get an even burn in a combustion chamber with a smaller diameter than a shot glass without resorting to the ridiculous solution of three spark sources, especially in a low-compression combustion chamber where you won't have a convoluted piston crown to have to work around, I'm left with no conclusion other than they have crap engineers. They could just as easily have accomplished that with twin plugs, were it warranted, or firing a single plug a second time during the exhaust to eliminate any unburnt fuel. However, as I also pointed out, it's just as likely to be a marketing gimmick (especially since there's another Indian manufacturer that already has a twin-plug bike). The fact that no other manufacturer has ever needed to resort to that solution is proof enough.
India isn't the only country where motorcycles need to have both low-end torque and top-end horsepower. That's a constant pretty much everywhere in the world, as a consequence of the way motorcycles have to be ridden (slow in the corners, then quick acceleration back up on the straights). A good example is the older Yamaha Genesis motors, which had 5 valves, requiring a piston crown that had so many indentations it looked like a golf ball (and thus a combustion chamber with many convolutions and pockets), and yet they managed with a single spark plug. My own GSXR1100s both had single plugs, despite being carbureted and producing far more horsepower per litre than the NS200 (and with wider combustion chambers to boot). Before you protest that those are multicylinder bikes, keep in mind that modern off-road bikes need that spread of power too, and none need a three-plug head to achieve efficient power production, even from 125cc motors.
The reality is that Bajaj has to do something to make the NS200 stand out, since it would otherwise be eclipsed by the Duke's shadow. With today's computer modeling, creating a 3-plug head is not the challenge it would have been even 5 or 10 years ago, especially since much of the final work can be done with milling machines rather than requiring the casting to be unusually complicated. No doubt Bajaj felt the extra cost of the design would be recovered through sales, since the NS is otherwise a relatively unremarkable motorcycle.
Realy good observation , if you compare pulsar 200ns with pulsar 220 dtsfi , in terms of real tech. only twin spar frame is new that again is courtesy KTM, only thing done by Bajaj which is new is triple vs twin spark and they retrograded from Fi to Carb. I dont know what Data logged result will display but in feel 220 feels clearly faster as well as powerful then 200Ns so the 20cc deficit is not getting negated by supposedly better combustion hence more power by triple spark tech.
Actually i took two test ride and went till almost 100km/hr on pulsar 200ns and still was not able to fathom where that 23.5 bhp go? it felt certainly less powerful then the current 220 .
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but then who knows whether all the three spark plugs are working or not .. it might be just one spark plug working and the other two are just for show and marketing gimmick purpose ...no owner is going to peel off the engine and verify the firing of all three spark plugs ..Originally posted by maverick1 View Post+ ++++ 1
Realy good observation , if you compare pulsar 200ns with pulsar 220 dtsfi , in terms of real tech. only twin spar frame is new that again is courtesy KTM, only thing done by Bajaj which is new is triple vs twin spark and they retrograded from Fi to Carb. I dont know what Data logged result will display but in feel 220 feels clearly faster as well as powerful then 200Ns so the 20cc deficit is not getting negated by supposedly better combustion hence more power by triple spark tech.
Actually i took two test ride and went till almost 100km/hr on pulsar 200ns and still was not able to fathom where that 23.5 bhp go? it felt certainly less powerful then the current 220 .
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if possible just try disconnecting 2 spark plugs and run on one. Then we might know if we are getting the same FE figures and if the bike runs fine.Originally posted by Rohan200ns View Postbut then who knows whether all the three spark plugs are working or not .. it might be just one spark plug working and the other two are just for show and marketing gimmick purpose ...no owner is going to peel off the engine and verify the firing of all three spark plugs ..
Sorry again OT.
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Sometimes, your statement are over the top, and complete baseless.Originally posted by Rohan200ns View Postbut then who knows whether all the three spark plugs are working or not .. it might be just one spark plug working and the other two are just for show and marketing gimmick purpose ...no owner is going to peel off the engine and verify the firing of all three spark plugs ..
@all - I humbly request you to caste a vote in this survey - Best new VFM bike in IndiaLast edited by Shibadip; 07-27-2012, 05:04 PM.sigpicRelationships change, evolve, and it goes deep.
Only thing I can say - "The storm is coming"
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Hey man... you are really humorous person!! If you aren't then this post actually makes you, well you know what..Originally posted by Rohan200ns View Postbut then who knows whether all the three spark plugs are working or not .. it might be just one spark plug working and the other two are just for show and marketing gimmick purpose ...no owner is going to peel off the engine and verify the firing of all three spark plugs .."HASTA LA VICTORIA, SIEMPRE !" - Chesigpic
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http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/tourer/20306-pursuit-swarghat.html#post716409
http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/tourer/2...sary-trip.html
http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/tourer/2...adventure.html
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Hey bro.. you are crossing the limit. Why all this bro ? We don't got you. Don't be like this.Originally posted by Rohan200ns View Postbut then who knows whether all the three spark plugs are working or not .. it might be just one spark plug working and the other two are just for show and marketing gimmick purpose ...no owner is going to peel off the engine and verify the firing of all three spark plugs ..
When I tell reply it'll cross the limit. So

sorry for OT mods, Rohan200NS is making me to quote.
sigpicUSED IN PAST: Ct100, Victor, Xcd 135For a true motorcyclist, the straight portions of the roads exist just to take him from one turn to the next!
CURRENT: PULSAR 200 NS
FUTURE: No plan
DREAM BIKES: Ducati multistrada, Yamaha R6, KTM Super Duke
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But that's not a licence to type anything you've in mind. No offense Rohan bro. Just telling. We all are bike lovers with passion.Originally posted by Rohan200nsguys - why do you take up everything in an offensive way ?? there is no need to ... just type out your views , people might either agree, disagree or ignore it ... simple ..
So don't post comments like that.sigpicUSED IN PAST: Ct100, Victor, Xcd 135For a true motorcyclist, the straight portions of the roads exist just to take him from one turn to the next!
CURRENT: PULSAR 200 NS
FUTURE: No plan
DREAM BIKES: Ducati multistrada, Yamaha R6, KTM Super Duke
Catch me on FACEBOOK
http://www.facebook.com/jayakrishnan56
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Originally posted by Shibadip View PostSometimes, your statement are over the top, and complete baseless.
@all - I humbly request you to caste a vote in this survey - Best new VFM bike in IndiaOriginally posted by rx100.7050 View PostHey man... you are really humorous person!! If you aren't then this post actually makes you, well you know what..guys - why do you take up everything in an offensive way ?? there is no need to ... just type out your views , people might either agree, disagree or ignore it ... simple .. stop behaving like kidsOriginally posted by J K View PostHey bro.. you are crossing the limit. Why all this bro ? We don't got you. Don't be like this.
When I tell reply it'll cross the limit. So

sorry for OT mods, Rohan200NS is making me to quote.
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my comments were never personal .. it was only about the machine .. i cant help it if someone want to take it personally and give out revolting replies...Originally posted by J K View PostBut that's not a licence to type anything you've in mind. No offense Rohan bro. Just telling. We all are bike lovers with passion.
So don't post comments like that.
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The peak Power and Peak Torque for the P220 comes in much earlier than the P200NS, which revs all the way to 9,500 rpm for its peak power and 8,000 rpm for its peak torque. Rev both bikes (P220 and P200NS) side by side till 10,000 rpm and everything will become crystal clear which one "feels" powerful and which "actually is" more powerful.Originally posted by maverick1 View PostI dont know what Data logged result will display but in feel 220 feels clearly faster as well as powerful then 200Ns so the 20cc deficit is not getting negated by supposedly better combustion hence more power by triple spark tech.
The 200 Duke is high revving too.. but then it also has an aggressive short gearing.
Please do take test ride of the Ninja 250R as well.. You will be similarly surprised as to "where did those 33 Ps go..??" Till you notice the speedo, which will be showing 140 kmph..!! And of course will be similarly feeling "less powerful" than the P220.Originally posted by maverick1 View PostActually i took two test ride and went till almost 100km/hr on pulsar 200ns and still was not able to fathom where that 23.5 bhp go? it felt certainly less powerful then the current 220 .
Whatever.. your posts tend to be exaggerated and over the top.Originally posted by Rohan200ns View Postmy comments were never personal .. it was only about the machine .. i cant help it if someone want to take it personally and give out revolting replies...
Last edited by payeng; 07-27-2012, 06:00 PM.
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Originally posted by Rohan200ns View Postmy comments were never personal .. it was only about the machine .. i cant help it if someone want to take it personally and give out revolting replies...
Poor Rohan from the fry pan to the fire... I have been following both the duke & 200Ns updates on a regular basis
All I can say is, can we Imagine a Duke at Rs 1 Lakh price tag with all these features..styling,FE inverted forks.amazing customer service..rem all these come at a cost..
Secondly if pulsars were not good as a product..then Bajaj wldnt have been so successful in the last 10 years....
For me as a customer..i want a bike that delivers at the end of the day...hightech, lowtech, midtech..doesnt matter...should perform shld last and shld be reliable .. we call can find plenty examples for bikes tat have been successful and failures with hightech, lowtech, midtech..etc
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Crap engineers?Originally posted by The Mountain View PostIf we strip away all the extraneous info there, your basic thesis is that the triple plug arrangement essentially has the alleged single benefit of improving emissions. If you're honestly saying that Bajaj can't get an even burn in a combustion chamber with a smaller diameter than a shot glass without resorting to the ridiculous solution of three spark sources, especially in a low-compression combustion chamber where you won't have a convoluted piston crown to have to work around, I'm left with no conclusion other than they have crap engineers. They could just as easily have accomplished that with twin plugs, were it warranted, or firing a single plug a second time during the exhaust to eliminate any unburnt fuel. However, as I also pointed out, it's just as likely to be a marketing gimmick (especially since there's another Indian manufacturer that already has a twin-plug bike). The fact that no other manufacturer has ever needed to resort to that solution is proof enough.
India isn't the only country where motorcycles need to have both low-end torque and top-end horsepower. That's a constant pretty much everywhere in the world, as a consequence of the way motorcycles have to be ridden (slow in the corners, then quick acceleration back up on the straights). A good example is the older Yamaha Genesis motors, which had 5 valves, requiring a piston crown that had so many indentations it looked like a golf ball (and thus a combustion chamber with many convolutions and pockets), and yet they managed with a single spark plug. My own GSXR1100s both had single plugs, despite being carbureted and producing far more horsepower per litre than the NS200 (and with wider combustion chambers to boot). Before you protest that those are multicylinder bikes, keep in mind that modern off-road bikes need that spread of power too, and none need a three-plug head to achieve efficient power production, even from 125cc motors.
The reality is that Bajaj has to do something to make the NS200 stand out, since it would otherwise be eclipsed by the Duke's shadow. With today's computer modeling, creating a 3-plug head is not the challenge it would have been even 5 or 10 years ago, especially since much of the final work can be done with milling machines rather than requiring the casting to be unusually complicated. No doubt Bajaj felt the extra cost of the design would be recovered through sales, since the NS is otherwise a relatively unremarkable motorcycle.
First of all, whenever Bajaj mentioned multiple spark plugs they didn't focus on performance, so where did this "accelerating out of the corner" talk come from?
From the Service manual, let me quote what they claim for 2 spark plugs: "The end results are low emissions, good fuel economy and good driveability." And, I'm myself confused what driveability exactly is, but its definitely not performance...
The only way to find how effective DTSi is to compare HAVES with HAVE NOTS:-->
Flame had 2 sparks once, and later it was replaced by a single spark. And then it lost some of its highway mileage... Why?
And your assumption about Bajaj engineers not capable of getting an even burn is based on what fact/ source?
How did the same "crap" engineers get Platina, Sapphire, CT100 and other products right? They all had single sparks and they performed good and gave good mileage too.
Talking about imported bikes only, do some BMW's have twin sparks? I think they have. You criticized Triple spark saying that the engineers had no choice, but would you mind actually telling Triple Spark's actual demerits for the end user?
You should not call any engineer "crap" unless you personally know them. Buddy, its just not the politeness level one expects. Hope you understand.
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