One must reckon that you are a special case in having to periodically leave your bike aside for one month at a time, or more. That is a long time for a lead battery, since it's worst enemy is inactivity! Working on yachts, I have seen whole banks of brand new expensive batteries loose most of their capacity after only a few months just because nobody was taking care of maintaining them through their necessary cycle of charges and discharges. They effectively hate four main things:

1- Too high charge or discharge amperage (absolutely not exceeding, in Amps, ten times their nominal capacity (in Amp/hour). Example a 5 Ah. battery should never be asked to deliver more than 50 Amps...which would drain it dead flat from fully charged in less than a minute!

2- Being overcharged= "boiling" (= water electrolysis, generating free hydrogen + oxygen, with high danger of explosion in confined places!). This leads to a very rapid break down of the sulfuric acid, inducing sulfation...although being also a mean to rejuvenate a battery that has started sulfating, but at the cost of reducing tremendously what was left of its lifetime.

3- Being drained more than half it's nominal capacity from full charge: for a 5Ah. , 12V. battery, hence "nominally" able to deliver 12*5 = 60Watts during one hour, the very maximum will be 60W. for 1/2 hour, or 30W. for 1 hour, etc...

4- And the most usual one: being left alone! Effectively, one main problem of a lead-acid battery comes from the electrolyte: sulfuric acid. With time, and moreover if left inactive, the sulfuric acid will break down and sulfur will crystallize and cover the plates, act as an insulator, and increase the resistance of the battery up to a point where it cannot charge or discharge anymore, and anyway will not be able to deliver the amperage it is supposed to, and to crank your engine. The only way against that is to charge the battery, then totally empty it from the acid (not possible with "gel" ones), and keep aside the acid and the dry battery,...which can be then kept for years without any damage, ready to be re-filled with the acid at any time and start working again after a few minutes. Only possible with new batteries....and not realistic on a monthly basis!

For sure, nothing is perfect in this world, and moreover in our technical world where we always want the best of the best (or what is available at that moment in time) but....do not always want to pay for it!

Effectively: there lies another problem: one can, if he uses his bike (or car, boat...) regularly enough or has the possibility to maintain and not mistreat his lead-acid battery, have it delivering good service for some three years or more. Then, when the inevitable time to change it arrives (there are many warning signs!), a minimal expense and that's all what's needed for another three or more years. I also like to mention that the lead itself is then one of the few materials that gets 100% recycled, while the case is either re-used as such or broken end recycled too. The sulfuric acid goes straight to the industry for other purposes.
The point is, anyway, that it will take quite a while till the replacement of a few lead batteries exceeds the cost of the Li-potassium ones!

But, as you said: you have bought reliability at a premium, and in your specific case, it did make obvious sense...notwithstanding the other inconveniences on the terminals, on the surrounding metallic parts, etc....!

Guys want to know about the performance air filter..........
Specially the cosworth filter specially made for FZ's
Is dis going to help in performance again in stock byk or just a market gimic. Heard that its stock and don't need up-jeeting

It will not work. Reason being r15's rim is not wide enough to accommodate fz's fat tyre. Even if you some how fit it, it will spoil the handling characteristics of the bike.

Sent from my WT19i using Tapatalk 2

Stock replacement filters won't change performance. The only benefit Is that you can clean and reuse it.

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If you don't need to rejet the carb then you are not introducing additional air via the new filter.
Anytime you are adding more air or allowing more air to pass through and out the exhaust you will need to add fuel to the additional air.

I arrived home late tonight. I had been away at work for over 2 weeks, Bike had been dropped off at my house over a week ago with new 33mm semiflat carb and rear disc brake installed.
I went to start my bike and it just kept cranking, Didn't start at all Normally it catches and fired up pretty much within half to 1 second of pressing the starter.

Checked fuel (easy as its a clear fuel hose, gave it a squeeze for good measure) Functioned the fuel cock On/Off/Reserve, Checked the spark by pulling the HT lead off the spark plug and resting it against the cyl head, Pressed the start button, saw the sparks, Reset the CDI to map1 (easiest to start) and still nothing.
Engaged the choke on my new 33mm carb, Bike started eventually,but black smoke started belching out, Turn off the choke and bike stalled.

In the end it took me around 30mins to get my bike going. Not sure why, Never happened to me before and my bike had been left alone for over 4 weeks and starts up within the first few cranks or kicks when the battery was flat.(I'll have to have a chat with Josh about this new carb and the settings)

My point is that, If I had a lead acid battery, I doubt I would have even got my bike to start. It would have died after a few start attempts.
With the Lithium battery I was able to just keep pressing the start button no problems.

Keep on posting :| I really seem to look like a noob to myself now.

Details on making header and FFE

Gents,
I have received a private massage by one here who asked me all the details (why not fabrication drawings?) for making a header pipe + FFE because he did not want to pay for Joel's one!

In two, long, previous posts, I explained some basics of exhausts (the little I knew: there is much more known by experts on that matter!). I even gave results for a stock FZ, which everyone can get from a simplistic program of which I also gave the link and that everyone can use. I insisted heavily, and also did Mik, on the cost of the unavoidable successive trials - and errors! - when entering the world of engine modifications (and its peripherals).

All this given in good faith and with the intention to just share some information, but also warn everyone of the "aleas" on engine modifications.

Then - sorry for the others! - when someone just writes a message asking for all the information and details on how to get an exhaust done by next door shop just to save money, when this one has not even taken the time to read my posts and understand the risks, failures, trials, researches, etc.... associated with such works, the only thing I want to do is to just get away from here!

There is nothing like a free meal, man!

Well, you just experienced one of the reasons why people like Joel don't share information and jealously guard their knowledge. This is typical of what happens on this side of the ocean

Pistons....pistons....pistons...!!!

There has been - and still is! - a discussion on the FZ16 ownership thread about how worth/ not worth it/ etc...etc.... is fitting big bore kits on our bikes.

There has also been a sensible post my fellow biker Muztarig on the lack of interest of these discussions for many - if not most - of the other FZ16 owners. I wholly concur to this remark and strongly suggest that all the discussions about modifications be concentrated in this thread, whether it is about also called "Joelled" mods, including those on R15, Pulsars, etc...., or on modifications/ tuning done in other parts of the world, and using parts of various origins.

So: let's start talking - if you fancy! - about these "big bore" modifications.

Why do it would be the first question.

In the case of Mik or myself, who live in Vietnam, we have a specific reason which is a limitation to 170cc. bikes, unless one is a (big buck paying) member of a "police" club, has bought (not passed!) another big buck (some 2,000 US Dollars!) driving license for big bikes, is ready to pay some 40 K US Dollars (!!!) for a BMW 1,000 or 60 K USD for a Harley 1,600, and knows he will be over-charged by the few mechanics able to work on these bikes!
Twenty years old Honda almost clapped out and with many parts already not original CBR 400 still go for some 6 to 8 K USD!!! So, it becomes more worth it to spend over 1,000 USD in my case (on top of the 4,500 USD with import taxes we already paid for the bike), and some 2,000 in Mik's case (hum!) for getting a modern bike with great frame and suspensions, brakes, etc....but a rather lousy engine and make it capable of performing like at least a classic 250. Not to mention the frustration of being overtaken by little bugs like Yamaha Exciters or noisy two strokers.... and let's forget the souped up ones that just leave us far behind...even with our modded bikes! Some R15 had been imported, but no more at the moment.
So, our case is special, but what about others, Indians here by a vast majority, or Indonesians with their "Byson" (the name of their locally made FZ 16), or Filipinos who are speed crazies?

A poll had been started early in the beginning of the FZ16 ownership thread asking if people would like improved performance of these bikes, and 70% said yes!

I do reckon: this bike is grossly underpowered, as well as showing multiple signs of how it has been made "on the cheap", the rear drum brake coming in mind first, and that is a pity for a bike that not only looks (look only is just show ad parade!) but feels like it wants to go....but simply can't! Road holding and braking of this bike is in par not only with the top of their class Super Dukes and CBR 250, but with high end small bikes like Ninjas! So why such a poor engine.....and then why not modify it to give what it could?

The first thing that comes to mind, then, is to increase the capacity. There is little that can beat cubic centimeters! But how much??????

Joel Joseph not only advocates for no more than 180 cc. but just refuses to consider any higher capacity. His reason is that the very good swirl and tumbling of the gases inside the combustion chamber of this bike, with it's offset valves, would still be maintained with an increase of the bore to 63mm, but not any higher as the flow of the gases would not be top-good anymore, resulting is poor "energetic ratio" (the ratio of the power obtainable to the quantity of gas). It is a non disputed fact that his big bore kit, 180cc., with lightweight forged piston enabling it to withstand higher efforts and giving higher compression ratio (the best way to get fuel efficiency: increase compression...if you can!) gives better mileage results than the smaller capacity stock engine.
Another reason why he does not want to go beyond 180cc. on this bike is....the crankshaft pin! This pin, which is the part of the crankshaft that can be disassembled on a single piston engine like ours and receives all the thrust of the conrod via a roller bearing is only 28mm. in diameter.

So: that is his limit. BUT - and this is my opinion - JJ thinks as a race biker, meaning being high up in revs and Wide Open Throttle to get the maximum horse power all the time, with aggressive mapping of the electronic ignition, and eventually higher lift camshaft and higher flow air filter, since that is all this engine would be able to withstand in a two hours race. He does not even want to have bigger valves. The result is a solid bike, able to race but moreover able to be used on the road trouble free for a few tens of thousands of miles while giving it's rider an available power and torque well above what the stock bike can deliver. Just great!

For India people who can obtain these parts without having to pay high import taxes as they would with any other parts supplier, and since there is apparently not (yet!) any other supplier of his level, there is just no discussion: go for it, and be happy. Get his new stainless steel exhaust for which I suspect he will have got rid of some nuisances of his earlier versions, and rooaaaaaaRRRRR!

For those who have access to parts from multiple origins - always at a premium, though! - the choices and the reasons that commend these choices may then be different.

One is that, although being a worldwide concern, the price of gas and the mileage of a motorcycle like a FZ16 and siblings is not such a priority concern as seems to be for most Indians. If the engine does not have a top energetic ratio, that is OK provided the air fuel ratio plus the way the bike is used does not cause damages to the engine. Being a bit more "active" on the throttle will have a far higher influence on mileage than the perfect swirl and tumbling of the gases! What is wanted, then, is not only flat out power but high torque a lower revs, and a bigger piston than 63mm. is able to give that!

Then, 66mm. diameter piston giving a capacity of 200cc. (a good 10% over Joel's) seems to be the next step up, together with bigger valves to deliver more air, and this all the way from bigger (or very much bigger!) flow air filter, enlarge manifold and carb. connecting rubber, enlarged intake and exhaust ports, bigger head pipe and large aftermarket free flow exhaust. Add to this another CDI, eventual hi-lift camshaft, performance conrod bearing, different sprockets, etc....etc...: there is actually no limit.

So: here is an article (in Indonesian: sorry!) on a 200cc. Byson. Even without understanding Indonesian or resourcing to Google translator, one can understand that the only mods besides the piston and cylinder were on the head, receiving 28 and 34mm. valves instead of the stock 24 - 30, and the corresponding valve seats and porting, of course. Stock crankshaft and stock exhaust (only rear disc brake as other mod)!!! No mention on which carb was used...?
The author then reports getting a speed of 130kmh instead of original 110.



But that is not all!
In this other magazine, one has gone up to 223cc. with a 70mm. diameter piston! That is 50% over the original capacity. WOW! And the best part is: which piston is he using for that?: the one form a bore-up kit of...a Yamaha Mio!!! A 125cc., 104kg. little city commuter looking almost like a Honda Cub!!!!!! Just shows how these guys play with bikes over there!
To fit this piston needed new cylinder sleeve and not only a re-bore, and even increasing the diameter for it to fit in the engine block. Serious mod! Then he had the same big valves as in here-above described mod: 28 - 34, but also used a high lift camshaft, PE 28 flat slide "race" carb., BRT dual band CDIand R9 exhaust. The speed: 140 kmh in fourth, over 150 to speed!!!
Crankshaft, etc...?: apparently: stock!



So, this will close the chapter for now, but I shall continue with some "lived" experiments from my side, and I hope as many as possible from all others!

A good and informative post Luke.

My two cents:

Unfortunately in the Indian context like you and Mik have already witnessed, the mileage factor is one of the most primary driving force in India when it comes to motorcycling. People consider everything associated with a bike to FE even when it comes to going ahead with engine mods in this country. Pity Pity

Plus when someone in India goes for power up kits, reliability has to be there for as long as possible and as many kms as possible. Simply offering power with lesser shelf life is just not acceptable as for most of the noobs they want to extract everything they can out of the money spent on the kits. They consider it as a lifetime investment and will not opt for future cc upgrades. Such a mentality exists here as the hot roding scene is relatively a very new concept in India so people still don't know the leaps and boundaries of the same.

A lot of noobs believe that by installing power up kits they now can go crazy and be even harsher on their respective rides which results in a lot of engine seizures at an early stage and thus starts outburst of anger and hate threads like i have mentioned earlier in the FZ thread.

So power+long term reliability is a must in the Indian market which compels Joel to stick to the 180cc kit and no more than that for the time being. Now, if tomorrow there is more demand for 180cc kits which surpasses a certain figure and there is a significant rise in the number of power hungry enthusiast especially in the Indian market for FZ/Fazer then i am sure Joel would be inclined to work in that direction and then probably come out with a 200cc set up and more.

A similar trend is what we have witnessed with Joel's offering of power up kits for Yamaha R15. Started off with a simple Altered port geometry of the engine head. with the increase in demand, later half 165cc BB kit set up along with camshaft and other upgrades were offered. He then put 173cc BB kit on the platter and now is in the process of offering 178cc BB kit along with custom 32mm throttle body etc. from RCs end.

R170 with the 173cc and other upgrades is indeed an insane bike.Me and Abhimanyu31 are amazed by it everytime we play around with the maps and see it whooping bigger cc bikes on the road.. It has the potential to beat Ninja's 0-100 kmph timings easily.


So i guess till there is a significant demand for FZ kits, we will have to wait...

Cheers,

Very accurate remarks, I think, not only about India people (understandable) consideration for mileage/ Fuel Efficiency (FE), but also on the lack of understanding of the risks associated with "hot rodding" or "engine tuning".... This is why I got really pissed at some pretending that bigger cylinder capacity should systematically mean higher speed: total lack of understanding there!

As both Mik, myself, but also many others have warned or even reported, one does not only risk big engine, clutch, gearbox, etc... failure, but can rest assured that he will spend much more than primarily expected! Or nearly always....!

Only when buying a kit that has been well studied but moreover well tried and tested, assembled by people fully aware of the procedures and controls to be respected, can one reasonably expect that his modification will be as - or close to - the stock bike reliability. The rest is diving deep into the dark....and into your pocket! Effectively, and specially with bikes that are built with price constraints such as the FZ16, unlike the R15 that is sort of already "upper class", it is usually possible, when choosing right but more expensive materials, to do massive power gains, although nearly always at the expense of FE. I do not mean that massive gains are not possible on the R15, though...

The only mod that gives you more power and better FE is higher compression ratio. Might nicely help blowing up your engine too if the other components are not up to this task, meaning rather extensive (and expensive) modifications: not only replacing cylinder and piston!!!

I am not sure, however, that Joel, from what I understood and have explained in my above post (gases flow, reliability of conrod, crank...), will ever provide a 200cc. bore-up kit for FZ 16. The here-above extracts from Indonesian magazines may report impressive power gains.....but are these bikes still alive as we speak...???

I shall soon (as soon as I have a bit of time in hand) continue the "saga" of my own mods. You will see how "bumpy" is this "road to FZ 20"....and it's not over yet. After that, the bike will have to prove its reliability!

Does 150kmph is done without any issues ?? Does FZ's design supports this speed ?? What about the stability?? What about the design strain when mere 153cc is changed to 223+cc and the power it produces??

This is an awesome mod, but the real fatc would be how relaible would this be??? Any chances of fatal sides while riding it on 150kmph on higways??

Normally when a bike is design it's dynamics are more important than what it offers from engine side??

If this Bike is stable on 150kmph then WoW this is seriously one mod!!

But did the modifier changes anything with tyres?? rear and front both ??
Becuase even tyres are been decided after the speed and power into consideration!!!


Your psot is awesome and would be leading to change of many bikes in future but the realiability shpould be the first concern all over!!
Bro ...nice post !! So are you planning any mods on your Frazer, i have seen your Rear disc brake mod thread it was good.

How is it serving, is it same like other stock rear Disc brakes???

As you can see, these are copies of Indonesian magazines. I received them by e-mail....but had to resource to Google translation since cannot even read Indonesian. How can I tell you about the behavior of the bike, etc... In preceding post to shv18, I said that I don't even know if these bikes are still alive....?

I posted these articles for the information they contain, and to show that some are "pushing the envelope" quite far....but (referring to my preceding post again): I also warn those who mod their engines of the possible consequences!

About an FZ at 150 kmh (or more): that would personally not worry me the least: I have done 135 kmh. with mine: just as good as at 100, a stability and good equilibrium of this bike applauded by all.


The more I use it, the more I like it! It balances and feels so well with the front that it beats the drum disc by ten to one, excepted perhaps with rain where a drum looses it's efficiency after a longer time (got to be really immersed!) than a disc one, ...but also does the front disc! Most of the FZs here have got rear disc brakes and no one ever thought of reverting to drum!

My personal experience: hot rodding is a religion and a acquired taste. It is not for everyone and it can be a very expensive hobby. The problem is that most people have a very superficial idea about what it entails or the risks involved. I guess you can blame the hollywood movies for putting these superficial ideas into the minds of people. Hot rodding is not just about improving the performance of the engine. That is just the end goal, but it is not main and only reason. Hot rodding is about a journey which involves a lot of learning, failures, pain, persistence and delight when things go right. However, it is a journey that has no finish line. Just when you think you have reached your goal and the finish line, you will see more paths and possibilities in front of you. The question then is whether you will stop and say enough or will go down one of those paths and continue the journey. I have been walking these paths for more than 25 years. I have experienced a number of failures. Seized engines, broken con rods, big end failures, blown engines and a whole lot more have been encountered during this journey. But these have been learning experiences. My relatives and friends call me crazy and a idiot who spends so much on hot rodding when I could easily have bought new bikes or cars with the money involved. As I said earlier, a very expensive hobby. Luckily for me, in my teens and early twenties my dad was very very supportive and post marriage my wife has been equally supportive.

So the bottom line and question; Any regrets? Hell, No! Will I continue down these roads.... OH YES!!!

My apologies if the post is a little off topic and sounds like rambling of a demented man.