My R1 Thread :D

[Streetfighter]

Alright I spoke to my mechanic. He's got easily over 20 years of experience on these bikes. The R1 problem he was talking about related to the fuel pump. The pressure had gone really low due to dirt clogging the fuel pump.

So I guess you can try the fuel/filter pump fixes if you've not already eliminated them.

[Old Fox]

Update on the engine issue. Removed the ignition coils and got the plugs out last night. Plugs for #2 and #3 and #4 were in a bad shape. Had a sooty black insulator which indicated a very rich A/F mixture. This despite running with a cat con removed.

Anyway, replaced the plugs, but the issue still persists. Now it is going into the serious stuff. Planning to check the cylinder compression pressure, and also do a leakdown test. It will show if the cylinders are developing ideal compression and if not, where the cylinders are losing pressure, either at the intake or the exhaust valve. Maybe even at the rings, but that will not be the case hopefully. Keeping fingers crossed.

Sooty black insulator...fluffy sort of carbon...marks the fingers I guess. That would definitely be richness. The million dollar question is why?? Obviously the ECU is being prodded into releasing more fuel. Or maybe....just maybe the air/fuel ratio is being affected by less air...which is the same as richness. The variable intake servo. Did you check it through engine diagnostics?

I doubt if the sputtering could be due to clogged filters on the fuel-pump intake side. Two reasons there; 1. Clogging would be persistent and permanent whereas the symptoms in this case are sort of intermittent. I mean filters don't clog and unclog repeatedly. 2. Less fuel should not show up black 'richness' related spark-plugs. One thing though...have you drained the tank completely? Could be condensation or contamination water present below the fuel level. Riding or even pushing the bike around sloshes the fuel in the tank causing suspended droplets of water to be injected with the fuel.

You can go ahead with the compression test as education but I seriously doubt any compression imbalance in the engine at so early a stage, especially one caused by bore or ring wear. And if there is some sort of compression leak somewhere, in my opinion it could more be due to sticky valves. Bad fuel tends to leave sticky, gooey, varnish-like deposits behind which could have made one or two of the intake valves sticky in their valve guides. For that of course you'll have to have the top end removed.

I also agree about the improbability of the lambda sensor making the ECU put in a rich mixture after the catcon removal. It is outside the loop...I mean the catcon and decreased back-pressure should not affect the O2 sensor output so much.

Even if the lambda sensor fed the ECU faulty values and turning the A/F into a rich mixture, this problem would have gone away when I put in new plugs. But it didn't. So it's not the lambda sensor.

I don't get the reasoning here though Akhil. Why should new plugs alleviate the richness??

It all started during my Southern India tour in December, when after a refuelling stop at Namakkal, the engine started spluttering and knocking. The knocking led me to believe that the fuel was the culprit and it would have clogged the injectors. So, the whole thing started with that.. Cleaning injectors, replacing the battery, checking the electricals and ground connections, and now replacing the plugs.

It has been a long and frustrating diagnosis, but one that has to be done carefully. If it can happen to me, it can happen to others so it must be done right.

Must be pretty frustrating for you. Not just because the bike is not working perfectly but because even systematic and logical trouble-shooting is apparently not getting you anywhere. One suggestion here: drop the 'logic' and go creative with the reasoning. The 'fault' is floating there, possibly right in front of your eyes but unless you 'allow' yourself to recognize it, it won't 'exist' for you. Pirsig is still relevant I guess. But then was the Gita ever irrelevant?? Oops! drifting into philosophizing there...and going OT with the mod himself. My apologies.

OF

[rossiter]

Thank God Akhil got the official R1 and Yamaha is attending to it in the best ways possible. Can't imagine ur plight if it were a grey-market one. Akhil's buy has been an eye-opener of sorts to most people planning an SBK and those still undecided between grey-market or legal ones!!!

Hopefully the issues are resolved asap. All my(our) wishes to you for the same Rossiter.

Absolutely.. You are spot on Apar! And thanks for your wishes man.. It will be solved soon.. It's not a rocket nor rocket science, to borrow OF's quote

@Akhil. Its been a long while since I visited this thread.
Just saw your problem. Dont know if you solved it already.

I had a similar prob on my Dodge car a long time back. It also happened after a refuelling. Apparently after checking injectors, sensors etc, the culprit was the fuel filter in the fuel pump located inside the fuel tank that was blocked due to some residue in the tank (mechanic said, probably when the fuel is poured in with pressure, it agitates the settled particles and could have gone & clogged it). That way the vehicle will start etc normally but will sputter. Anyway, I still think & hope its a small problem that needs to be diagnosed properly. Good luck.

To me O2 sensor seems the least probable as I know bikes that have had their O2 sensors (in the exhaust) removed. Whereas the throttle position sensor or air temperature sensors may be more related to such a problem.

Alright I spoke to my mechanic. He's got easily over 20 years of experience on these bikes. The R1 problem he was talking about related to the fuel pump. The pressure had gone really low due to dirt clogging the fuel pump.

So I guess you can try the fuel/filter pump fixes if you've not already eliminated them.

Haroon, long time since we interacted. Hope everything is alright. That's a very valid suggestion. Will try to source an alternate fuel pump and do the process of elimination with these suggestions.

The fuel filter/pump angle is something that I did not pay too much attention to. It is definitely worth devoting sometime there. Will revert back with some results.

Sooty black insulator...fluffy sort of carbon...marks the fingers I guess. That would definitely be richness. The million dollar question is why?? Obviously the ECU is being prodded into releasing more fuel. Or maybe....just maybe the air/fuel ratio is being affected by less air...which is the same as richness. The variable intake servo. Did you check it through engine diagnostics?

Checked and it is OK.

I doubt if the sputtering could be due to clogged filters on the fuel-pump intake side. Two reasons there; 1. Clogging would be persistent and permanent whereas the symptoms in this case are sort of intermittent. I mean filters don't clog and unclog repeatedly. 2. Less fuel should not show up black 'richness' related spark-plugs. One thing though...have you drained the tank completely? Could be condensation or contamination water present below the fuel level. Riding or even pushing the bike around sloshes the fuel in the tank causing suspended droplets of water to be injected with the fuel.

Well it is now very persistent at idle. This is what I was implying in my earlier post.. The symptoms are very misleading at times I have no choice but to consider EVERYTHING, and elminate one by one..

It's possible there may be some condensation in the tank. Come to think of it, there was some wet riding a few hours before I refuelled and before the problems began. One more possibility goes on to the list! Will drain completely tomorrow and refuel.

You can go ahead with the compression test as education but I seriously doubt any compression imbalance in the engine at so early a stage, especially one caused by bore or ring wear. And if there is some sort of compression leak somewhere, in my opinion it could more be due to sticky valves. Bad fuel tends to leave sticky, gooey, varnish-like deposits behind which could have made one or two of the intake valves sticky in their valve guides. For that of course you'll have to have the top end removed.

I want to do the compression test to justify opening up the head. I don't want to have to open her up based on a gut feeling. The compression and a leakdown test will give me some solid backup to either open up the head or leave her alone, and pursue other possibilities.

The theory of the stuck intake valves has been in my head since a couple of days now. It makes perfect sense, but so do all the other probabilities. But like I said, the compression test needs to be carried out before I can go ahead with opening the head. Will try to do all these things parallely.

I don't get the reasoning here though Akhil. Why should new plugs alleviate the richness??

Yes I didn't make myself clear. I was purely looking at the plugs as a source of information. What I meant was, putting new plugs in wouldn't mean anything because they'd go bad in no time because she's running rich.

Must be pretty frustrating for you. Not just because the bike is not working perfectly but because even systematic and logical trouble-shooting is apparently not getting you anywhere. One suggestion here: drop the 'logic' and go creative with the reasoning. The 'fault' is floating there, possibly right in front of your eyes but unless you 'allow' yourself to recognize it, it won't 'exist' for you. Pirsig is still relevant I guess. But then was the Gita ever irrelevant?? Oops! drifting into philosophizing there...and going OT with the mod himself. My apologies.

OF

I can see the location of your rides are having it's effects on you

I see what you mean. Logical and step by step approach is all fine, but sometimes there needs to be a radical out of the box idea to solve these things, especially after this has dragged on for so long. Let me sleep over it, and let it come to me in an epiphany

But jokes apart, I was curious to see how the plugs were doing after a day of service. So out came the radiator once again Sure enough, the plug supposed to spark up in cylinder #3, after one day's work, was black and sooty, just like the old plug which was inside for 8300 kms. I've at least isolated the misbehaving cylinder. Now I can try to go back right from the ignition coil, to the harness, distributor, etc.

[Old Fox]

I want to do the compression test to justify opening up the head. I don't want to have to open her up based on a gut feeling. The compression and a leakdown test will give me some solid backup to either open up the head or leave her alone, and pursue other possibilities.

The theory of the stuck intake valves has been in my head since a couple of days now. It makes perfect sense, but so do all the other probabilities. But like I said, the compression test needs to be carried out before I can go ahead with opening the head. Will try to do all these things parallely.

Very relevant. Opening the head needs 'multi-level substantiation' if I may put it like that. Logical deduction, apparent symptoms, objective parameter check and of course gut feeling. But my best wishes for 'NOT' having to touch the head.

Yes I didn't make myself clear. I was purely looking at the plugs as a source of information. What I meant was, putting new plugs in wouldn't mean anything because they'd go bad in no time because she's running rich.

Got it now.

I can see the location of your rides are having it's effects on you

Geographically Induced Deliberation Syndrome

I see what you mean. Logical and step by step approach is all fine, but sometimes there needs to be a radical out of the box idea to solve these things, especially after this has dragged on for so long. Let me sleep over it, and let it come to me in an epiphany

But jokes apart, I was curious to see how the plugs were doing after a day of service. So out came the radiator once again Sure enough, the plug supposed to spark up in cylinder #3, after one day's work, was black and sooty, just like the old plug which was inside for 8300 kms. I've at least isolated the misbehaving cylinder. Now I can try to go back right from the ignition coil, to the harness, distributor, etc.

I think you are getting really close now. May you be the 'Kekule' for the sputtering R1's. Sweet technical dreams

[MavericK46]

Its 6.50 AM rosssiter and OF...

I pray we be graced with a discovery, made yesterday night (a'la Kekule) that puts to rest the case of : "The sputtering ONE !"
Any such luck..?

[rossiter]

Very relevant. Opening the head needs 'multi-level substantiation' if I may put it like that. Logical deduction, apparent symptoms, objective parameter check and of course gut feeling. But my best wishes for 'NOT' having to touch the head.

I think you are getting really close now. May you be the 'Kekule' for the sputtering R1's. Sweet technical dreams

Thanks OF

Its 6.50 AM rosssiter and OF...

I pray we be graced with a discovery, made yesterday night (a'la Kekule) that puts to rest the case of : "The sputtering ONE !"
Any such luck..?

No luck. After today's attempt at finding a solution, I have exhausted everything in my hands to fix it. I swapped the fuel pump with a known good one and there is still no improvement. Also drained the tank and refilled it.

I also cleaned the o2 sensor just for Maverick's sake It had some sooty deposit on it, but that didn't change anything as well.

Now I have given up and the bike will be in the service centre where it will await the Yamaha service technicians from Delhi.

I will be doing the compression and leak down test just to confirm the valve issue, but it's more or less a certainty at this point.

[mithun.08]

Sad to know the issue is not fixed yet, nammakal MLA (bunk)

PS: looks like 180 CC will see some tarmac when 180 BHP rests (for some time)

[ken cool]

"Damn"!!! Is all I can say for the moment. I wish you all the best Rossiter. Thought of riding with you this year.

[nfsnfs]

Time to call in the professional , BALI where are you ?

[Haroon]

Now that the fuel pump/filter is ruled out. On the sidelines, I am hoping the battery terminals are clean & tight. Anyway, the service center would also check on the throttle position sensor and air temp sensors. Hoping all goes well.

[Ducati695]

Would it be possible for you to run only one cylinder at a time, I feel your problem is not isolated to one particular cylinder. The problem still smells of something electronics related, not mechanical -- as in sticky valve guide, fuel pressure, lack of compression, blow-by etc.


@OF Could the fuel mapping programs in the ECU have gotten messed up due to a minor short from riding in too much water ?

Could you take out the 3 plugs & the respective electrical inputs to the injectors on those 3 cylinders? that way you can just run the bike on the 4th cylinder. Run it on each one of the 4 cylinders at a time.

May be that will help you isolate it to one particular cylinder or you will see that the problem affects the cylinders randomly.
I remember doing something similar in the non fuel injected days ! -- ahh the beauty of simple spark & carbs -- makes me nostalgic, at least we did not need a stupid computer to tell us what the error code in the ECU was :-)

[MavericK46]

..............I also cleaned the o2 sensor just for Maverick's sake It had some sooty deposit on it, but that didn't change anything as well.

Ah.. That's so chweet of you rossi
On a serious note, looks like we're officialy neck deep in muck now. The last time i saw the One, she was coated in grime from her 'bars to the rear mumber plate and yet was singing like Asha Bhonsle on crack

Never did i know that this problem was lurking around the corner
Keep us posted.

P.S : Will come over to B.W and help you threaten the Yammie mechs with dire consequences if they don't get the 'One back to her best, FAST

[busalover42]

hey Akhil,

Sorry to hear about the nagging and persistent problems your R1 is being plagued by ...well whatever the problem might be i do hope it gets sorted out for ya quickly

cheers!

Jay.

[Streetfighter]

&%*# this is annoying. When are the technicians due?

[Old Fox]

Woe stuck One's

The problem still smells of something electronics related, not mechanical -- as in sticky valve guide, fuel pressure, lack of compression, blow-by etc.

@OF Could the fuel mapping programs in the ECU have gotten messed up due to a minor short from riding in too much water ?

Could you take out the 3 plugs & the respective electrical inputs to the injectors on those 3 cylinders? that way you can just run the bike on the 4th cylinder. Run it on each one of the 4 cylinders at a time.

May be that will help you isolate it to one particular cylinder or you will see that the problem affects the cylinders randomly.
I remember doing something similar in the non fuel injected days ! -- ahh the beauty of simple spark & carbs -- makes me nostalgic, at least we did not need a stupid computer to tell us what the error code in the ECU was :-)

I doubt if the ECU will permit the engine start with just one cylinder connected. In any case, the injectors cannot just be taken out like the sparkies in those gud 'ol carbed engines. The 'stupid' computer is the biggest compromise for the hands-on do-it-yourself fraternity. the price of technology I guess.

No, I don't think the 'fuel map' itself can get affected by an external short circuit or any electrical leak/spike. As an engineer I do know that I distrust 'joints' in any structure or system. And faults with or because of these 'joints' or 'connections' (in this case) can really take one for a royal ride.

Akhil...even though I was the one to bring the 'sticky valve' hypothesis into the picture, I still feel the fault is a 'collective sensor input error'. There is more than one input involved and that is why the 'isolation-deduction' method has not yielded results. Incidentally, we have also started having issues with our One's. Sunny's R1 had that mysterious coolant leak again...a few spoonfuls dripping down without rhyme or reason. And my One is also acting up. Whenever I stop to refuel after say a couple of hundred kms, after filling up the bike refuses to idle for a while. It even needs a slightly longer burst of the starter button to start. Its almost reminiscent of the 'vapor-lock' thing. A hot bike stops for a while, the engine is switched off so fans shut down and the engine radiates heat strongly. The fuel feed pipes heat up and the fuel inside turns to gas obstructing further flow. Though why this would happen in a positive pressure fuel injected environment is what I fail to fathom. Another mystery.

The bike just refuses to idle though it runs through the full rpm range without a hiccup. Was that how it started with you? Revving up the engine through the gears or even with the clutch pulled in makes no difference. It just starts to idle after a couple of kilometers, at times more. My One also crossed the 10000 km mark yesterday. Keeping fingers crossed for the duration of this ride though. This country seriously lacks sbk maintenance infrastructure and with one bike already inside the van, I guess I'd need a strong rope and a willing R15 to pull me along if it shuts down for good.