My R1 Thread :D

[Aparajith]

Well well well, looks like the Indian Conditions are giving the Japanese bikes a good run for their money!!! They probably should get their bikes here for endurance tests et al.....

@Ducati695 and Old Fox: How is running a 4-cyl engine on one single cylinder possible? Wont that end up bending the crank for good due to uneven force exerted on the crank by a working single cylinder? Am asking this because I specifically remember a situation when my Ambassador equipped with an Isuzu(D) engine seized 1 cylinder on the highway about 100 kms away from Chennai. My driver skillfully drove the vehicle all the way back although the engine and whole car was specifically rattling and vibrating using the functioning 3 cylinders. When the SC opened up the engine we had ended up with a bent crank!!! So won't firing up or trying to fire up just one cylinder without the rest result in a similar scenario?

[rossiter]

Would it be possible for you to run only one cylinder at a time, I feel your problem is not isolated to one particular cylinder. The problem still smells of something electronics related, not mechanical -- as in sticky valve guide, fuel pressure, lack of compression, blow-by etc.


@OF Could the fuel mapping programs in the ECU have gotten messed up due to a minor short from riding in too much water ?

Could you take out the 3 plugs & the respective electrical inputs to the injectors on those 3 cylinders? that way you can just run the bike on the 4th cylinder. Run it on each one of the 4 cylinders at a time.

May be that will help you isolate it to one particular cylinder or you will see that the problem affects the cylinders randomly.
I remember doing something similar in the non fuel injected days ! -- ahh the beauty of simple spark & carbs -- makes me nostalgic, at least we did not need a stupid computer to tell us what the error code in the ECU was :-)

I doubt if the ECU will permit the engine start with just one cylinder connected. In any case, the injectors cannot just be taken out like the sparkies in those gud 'ol carbed engines. The 'stupid' computer is the biggest compromise for the hands-on do-it-yourself fraternity. the price of technology I guess.

Well you can check the injector and the spark plug one cylinder at a time by actuating them through the ECU's self diagnostic mode, but that's the extent to which it can be isolated. No chance of an engine starting up on one cylinder at a time. And for the record, I agree.. the carbed/non gizmo bikes have a massive advantage in this regard. Plus way more fun to ride

&%*# this is annoying. When are the technicians due?

You said it! The chaps are due to arrive in the first week of April. So a good solid couple of weeks!!

Well well well, looks like the Indian Conditions are giving the Japanese bikes a good run for their money!!! They probably should get their bikes here for endurance tests et al.....

@Ducati695 and Old Fox: How is running a 4-cyl engine on one single cylinder possible? Wont that end up bending the crank for good due to uneven force exerted on the crank by a working single cylinder? Am asking this because I specifically remember a situation when my Ambassador equipped with an Isuzu(D) engine seized 1 cylinder on the highway about 100 kms away from Chennai. My driver skillfully drove the vehicle all the way back although the engine and whole car was specifically rattling and vibrating using the functioning 3 cylinders. When the SC opened up the engine we had ended up with a bent crank!!! So won't firing up or trying to fire up just one cylinder without the rest result in a similar scenario?

Yikes! That must have been an adventure But it's just not possible, like I said.

"Damn"!!! Is all I can say for the moment. I wish you all the best Rossiter. Thought of riding with you this year.

We'll ride Ken, Ill make sure of that

Sad to know the issue is not fixed yet, nammakal MLA (bunk)

PS: looks like 180 CC will see some tarmac when 180 BHP rests (for some time)

Thanks for the wishes guys. Looks like I've zeroed in on the problem. It is a confirmed mechanical issue.

Ah.. That's so chweet of you rossi
On a serious note, looks like we're officialy neck deep in muck now. The last time i saw the One, she was coated in grime from her 'bars to the rear mumber plate and yet was singing like Asha Bhonsle on crack

Never did i know that this problem was lurking around the corner
Keep us posted.

P.S : Will come over to B.W and help you threaten the Yammie mechs with dire consequences if they don't get the 'One back to her best, FAST

Not necessary man

No, I don't think the 'fuel map' itself can get affected by an external short circuit or any electrical leak/spike. As an engineer I do know that I distrust 'joints' in any structure or system. And faults with or because of these 'joints' or 'connections' (in this case) can really take one for a royal ride.

Akhil...even though I was the one to bring the 'sticky valve' hypothesis into the picture, I still feel the fault is a 'collective sensor input error'. There is more than one input involved and that is why the 'isolation-deduction' method has not yielded results. Incidentally, we have also started having issues with our One's. Sunny's R1 had that mysterious coolant leak again...a few spoonfuls dripping down without rhyme or reason. And my One is also acting up. Whenever I stop to refuel after say a couple of hundred kms, after filling up the bike refuses to idle for a while. It even needs a slightly longer burst of the starter button to start. Its almost reminiscent of the 'vapor-lock' thing. A hot bike stops for a while, the engine is switched off so fans shut down and the engine radiates heat strongly. The fuel feed pipes heat up and the fuel inside turns to gas obstructing further flow. Though why this would happen in a positive pressure fuel injected environment is what I fail to fathom. Another mystery.

The bike just refuses to idle though it runs through the full rpm range without a hiccup. Was that how it started with you? Revving up the engine through the gears or even with the clutch pulled in makes no difference. It just starts to idle after a couple of kilometers, at times more. My One also crossed the 10000 km mark yesterday. Keeping fingers crossed for the duration of this ride though. This country seriously lacks sbk maintenance infrastructure and with one bike already inside the van, I guess I'd need a strong rope and a willing R15 to pull me along if it shuts down for good.

OF, am happy to report the cause is now almost confirmed. Let me first explain the events of the day and then I'll reply in detail to your post tomorrow.

At the outset, I want to stress that in no way am I dissatisfied with Yamaha's service, before people start yelling at them online and make life difficult for me offline

1) I managed to get a compression tester from Pradeep (psycho 98). He dragged himself out with a fever just to meet me to hand the tester over. Big thanks to you man. I would have had to shell out and buy myself a new one if it wasn't for you.

By the time I got the tester and headed to the SC, it was almost 6 PM. We immediately got down to prepping the engine for the test. The manual specifies 210 psi at sea level as normal compression, but allows a broader range of 180-230 psi. Being at 3000 ft, I was prepared to accept 160-170 psi as well.

So we ran the test and here are the results:

Trial 1:

Cyl 1: 170 psi.
Cyl 2: 165 psi.
Cyl 3: 20 psi.
Cyl 4: 165 psi.

Trial 2:

Cyl 1: 170 psi.
Cyl 2: 160 psi.
Cyl 3: 20 psi.
Cyl 4: 160 psi.

As it is, I had identified Cyl 3 as the problematic cylinder. Now I had the data to back it up. Next step is to check how and why the cylinder is losing compression. For this, I require a leak down tester, and hopefully I'll get it tomorrow. But it is all but confirmed that the valves are causing the problem, and most likely, the intake valve itself. I just hope that it has not worn itself down, and the damage is not too severe. In any case, I have asked the SC to order a full set of intake and exhaust valves, along with a broad range of valve pads across various thicknesses. This should take a week or so to arrive, and in any case, I would like the people from Delhi to over see this work.

Possibly, I might go one step ahead and check for the valve clearances, which will give a more accurate confirmation. But for this, I'll have to open the engine head cover, and I don't want to proceed without Yamaha's clearance, as it now involves warranty.

At least I am now satisfied that after three months,the issue has been identified.

But it took us three months to do it, and I feel I've been more than patient with how things have transpired. More often than not, I found myself suggesting and driving the diagnostic process most of the time. Agreed, the enthusiasm and the confidence of the guys in the SC is very endearing and more often than not, I have felt lucky to have such fantastic technicians and an amazing dealer who has obliged and participated proactively in the whole thing. But there is a limitation to the things they can do, and for this to have taken 3 months, I feel shortchanged, and I don't know whom to point the finger at. And at this point, after having spent sleepless nights working and breaking my head on this, I am too tired to do it as well.

I have to be fair here and admit that I was also not able to dedicate my focus to this due to my work and personal committments. While my R1 is important to me, it is not an all-consuming part of my life. So the timeline may have been shortened had I been more impatient, as any other customer may have been given the situation.

At the same time, I also feel that no other company who has launched their CBU bikes can come close to the kind of support and knowledge Yamaha has imparted to the guys at the ground level. It is simply fantastic. If things remain this way, I will not move out of the Yamaha family.

Tomorrow, if there is an FZ1 against a CB1000R, I will buy the FZ1, even though the CB1000R is a much better bike in every aspect.

/End of rhetoric and post.

Will go and get a well deserved dinner and some sleep now. It will be another 10-15 days until we see some concrete action, till the parts arrive.

[mithun.08]

Good news finally

[Aryan]

@rossiter: So the cylinder 3 is the culprit it seems. Bad fuel (adulterated/ less than 97 octane) might just be the cause, is it?

[rossiter]

@rossiter: So the cylinder 3 is the culprit it seems. Bad fuel (adulterated/ less than 97 octane) might just be the cause, is it?

Yes, bad fuel has most likely jammed the intake valve. The plug also indicated as much.

In any case, am planning to ask them to change all the valves.

Good news finally

Houdu saar.. plenty of stories to tell you offline

[Aparajith]

Finally......

So happy to read ur post Akhil. But 230 psi to 20 psi!!!! Damn..... It just scares me man. Thats almost equal to no compression at all!!!

And I have just one basic question, IF the fuel from the Namakkal bunk were the culprit, how come just one cylinder and the respective valves have conked off? Shouldn't all cylinders have responded in a similar fashion.

P.S: Rossiter, I am in no way thinking of the above scenario happening(I in fact pray, that it does not), but just have a basic doubt and want it to be cleared.

[nfsnfs]

Congrats , the yammie back action .Whatever parts , warranty right ? .

PS :You connect the compression gauge one cyclinder at a time right ?

[navnish]

OMG .. man you have some patience man... how frustrating was all this ?? and did the SS charge you for all this investigation and stuff and will warranty cover all this ...

[santoosh]

all the best to strip it..
enjoy maadi.

Damn , this is so interesting :-P

pics?


Santa
________
Cannabis seeds

[Haroon]

Akhil- Glad to know the problem is finally diagnosed and I hope the work is completed soon.

Appreciate your wisdom in going in for an 'official' R1 so that you have real back-up support & warranty. Besides, its nice to hear about Yamaha/your dealer's proactive support. Probably, these are indications Yamaha is on track to regaining its position in the Indian bike market.

[Ducati695]

@rossiter: Hey before you go through the trouble of opening up the valve train to get it fixed, why don't you try one of the fuel/oil additives that claim to help with sticky valves?

If you search the web you will find them, GM has a brand name called Techron its used for cars and i believe its an oil additive. I think you have nothing to loose but a couple of liters of petrol/oil at this point trying them out, if they do not help they would hopefully not make things worse :-);

any day better than opening up the ONE .......IMHO

[santoosh]

^mate
Losing about 150 psi on a cylinder means there is something wrong physically .
Using even jet fuel will not boost his Psi.

Its a mechanical/functioning problem of a moving part.
Could be a valve or on oil seal or even the head gasket having blown at the place and him losing compression.
The most common reason to lose compression is the rings , may be they taken a toss.

In my feel , to solve, the best way is open its heart up ,check the valve springs height and ,any bent valves or so.

Thers only one way to do things right... start from scratch ( Akhil-- senti bout opening it up ?:-P)

If it doesn solve , fix an r15 engine , and use.

Inline 5 900 ccR1 :-D

Santa
________
Colorado dispensaries

[MavericK46]

A collective sigh of relief over here at xBhp when you posted the diagnosis Akhil
Hope this experience hasn't put you off taking the One out for tripping. It'll be our loss, if we're unable to see that beauty amongst all our mopeds

Any chance that the rings are shot like Santa has speculated or is it surely malfunctioning valves..?
Since you've already ordered for valves to be shipped in, im guessing you already have an explanation in place.

For the uninitiated (such as me ), a leakdown test helps identify the cause for the loss in compression : Leak Down Test VFAQ

P.S : Im sure there's no one here who doesn't know what the leakdown test signifies. Akhil, OF, Santa, Apar, Haroon, Aryan da etc : Please do excuse the link. I felt it might help members who're just passively involved in this thread

[Aryan]

@Maverick: I didn't know about the 'leakdown test'. Your link was helpful. Thanks.

[rossiter]

And I have just one basic question, IF the fuel from the Namakkal bunk were the culprit, how come just one cylinder and the respective valves have conked off? Shouldn't all cylinders have responded in a similar fashion.

P.S: Rossiter, I am in no way thinking of the above scenario happening(I in fact pray, that it does not), but just have a basic doubt and want it to be cleared.

Apar, makes logical sense, no issues

Will get a better idea of the condition of the other valves when we open it up.

Congrats , the yammie back action .Whatever parts , warranty right ? .

PS :You connect the compression gauge one cyclinder at a time right ?

Yup, one at a time. Have to remove the plug, and thread the gauge adaptor inside the plug bore.

The manual also says that the pressure must not vary more than 14 PSI between cylinder to cylinder.

OMG .. man you have some patience man... how frustrating was all this ?? and did the SS charge you for all this investigation and stuff and will warranty cover all this ...

Haven't been charged as yet.. and will talk about the warranty aspect with the concerned person(s).

all the best to strip it..
enjoy maadi.

Damn , this is so interesting :-P

pics?


Santa

Totally interesting

I have some pics.. will upload soon.

Akhil- Glad to know the problem is finally diagnosed and I hope the work is completed soon.

Appreciate your wisdom in going in for an 'official' R1 so that you have real back-up support & warranty. Besides, its nice to hear about Yamaha/your dealer's proactive support. Probably, these are indications Yamaha is on track to regaining its position in the Indian bike market.

Thanks Haroon!

@rossiter: Hey before you go through the trouble of opening up the valve train to get it fixed, why don't you try one of the fuel/oil additives that claim to help with sticky valves?

If you search the web you will find them, GM has a brand name called Techron its used for cars and i believe its an oil additive. I think you have nothing to loose but a couple of liters of petrol/oil at this point trying them out, if they do not help they would hopefully not make things worse :-);

any day better than opening up the ONE .......IMHO

^mate
Losing about 150 psi on a cylinder means there is something wrong physically .
Using even jet fuel will not boost his Psi.

Its a mechanical/functioning problem of a moving part.
Could be a valve or on oil seal or even the head gasket having blown at the place and him losing compression.
The most common reason to lose compression is the rings , may be they taken a toss.

In my feel , to solve, the best way is open its heart up ,check the valve springs height and ,any bent valves or so.

Thers only one way to do things right... start from scratch ( Akhil-- senti bout opening it up ?:-P)

If it doesn solve , fix an r15 engine , and use.

Inline 5 900 ccR1 :-D

Santa

In this case, it's not the rings because we did a subsequent test for excessive piston ring wear, which was not the case.

We poured some oil into the cylinder, allowed it to settle and seal the rings and then checked the pressure again. Same 20 PSI, which means that the ring is OK. Only other possibilities are the piston itself, head gasket or the valves. Culprit is the valves in my opinion.

As for the R15 engine, I have a ready engine to transplant.. you know which one