The Official Mumbai Offline Meet(G2G) Thread

[antz.bin]

[razorBlades]

Hang on! Its not a decision, atleast not yet. Its a discussion
Ofcourse there are legit reasons on why one should wear riding gear, no matter what!
Not many learn the hard way, I mean I dont want to name people, but there are 'friends of freinds' who have crashed and we individually have not been able to convince them. The idea is for them to join in, see a ride with so many people, experience why we think the gear is handy and hope for them to change. Who knows some of us can actually give up our old gears to these people!

For short rides it could work and no no for long ones i feel. I usually dont go for long rides with someone who I dont know so I dont have say here. But I have experienced it myself. Was riding with a friend of mine and he just had a helmet on and I was fully geared. He then asked me if I could lend it to him since he is planing to go for a long ride. I gave my good old RST (no one should make fun here ) to him. Now he is bugging me to get him a new shiny DSG, a nice helmet and a glove! for show or no show its good for him to have all the gears! So I do welcome your point of view!

[nav75]

Sorry to jump in.

Doing 90-100kmph for 30 seconds on a city road is different from maintaining it over hours on a highway ride.

In this context, city roads are very unsafe as compared to highways.
City roads OR Highway sections passing through city/town/village limits, they both are more dangerous to do speeds that you can safely do on a highway section outside city/town/village limits.

You can never forget that most new joinees are new to this highway riding business and might not be adept enough to sustained high speed riding.

They may not be as comfortable as the rest of us. Who takes reponsibility if they stretch themselves ahead of what they are capable of and crash? Who decides which rides are OK without gear?

What ever little group riding I have done, where I was given some responsibility (this was before 2006-07), the group riders never did speeds that were uncomfortable to them.
How did we achieved it? The slowest rider in the group (most of times it used to be me), will be at the head of pack (with no one allowed to overtake), along with the guy who knows the route(unless I was doing the same). This way the speed of group was controlled to safe limits.
The fastest guy(s) used to be at the tail of the group.

Except for the few talented ones, normal skilled riders will take time to get used to of riding at speeds, that they are not used to of riding at. That is done by slowly slowly increasing their pace, instead of riding at the pace of the group. How to achieve it, I just mentioned in above para.

More than discussing about riding gear(to make it compulsory or not), I'll say discussion should be on - how we make riders ride in a safe manner so that the need to put riding gear through test doesn't come.

[alankarmisra]

Debatable. Since when are running FFEs and cornering on public roads "Good practices". Riding gear arent license to ride insane.

Not many learn the hard way, I mean I dont want to name people, but there are 'friends of freinds' who have crashed and we individually have not been able to convince them. The idea is for them to join in, see a ride with so many people, experience why we think the gear is handy and hope for them to change. Who knows some of us can actually give up our old gears to these people!

+1,000,000

I think all that happens with a riding gear mandate is that people who don't want to wear them for a number of reasons (or who have pillions of the fairer sex who feel claustrophobic in helmets or don't want to ruin their hair) circumvent the system by organizing personal xbhp-flavoured rides and to be honest I'd rather have them riding with a group of experienced riders than riding in small packs that are completely clueless of a group riding culture. Hopefully riding with a group will allow them to experience the culture, see the benefits (be it of a group safety protocol or a riding gear protocol) and they will subscribe to it intuitively instead of being forced to circumvent the system and making fatal mistakes. And yes, without gear they are still exposed to the elements but frankly they are better off with a group sensitized to their safety than riding in small clueless packs. We will never stop them from riding, but maybe they can learn by our example.

And if they don't, well there's nothing any of us can do.

[antz.bin]

Sorry to jump in.


In this context, city roads are very unsafe as compared to highways.
City roads OR Highway sections passing through city/town/village limits, they both are more dangerous to do speeds that you can safely do on a highway section outside city/town/village limits.

But thats something they are used to since they ride there everyday. What they might not be used to is crosswinds/ a bug hitting the eye at high speed / turbulence due to a passing truck. When I started off I couldn't take a sweeping corner at 50 confidently. Those are not skills that city-only riding can teach you.

What ever little group riding I have done, where I was given some responsibility (this was before 2006-07), the group riders never did speeds that were uncomfortable to them.
How did we achieved it? The slowest rider in the group (most of times it used to be me), will be at the head of pack (with no one allowed to overtake), along with the guy who knows the route(unless I was doing the same). This way the speed of group was controlled to safe limits.
The fastest guy(s) used to be at the tail of the group.

Except for the few talented ones, normal skilled riders will take time to get used to of riding at speeds, that they are not used to of riding at. That is done by slowly slowly increasing their pace, instead of riding at the pace of the group. How to achieve it, I just mentioned in above para.

More than discussing about riding gear(to make it compulsory or not), I'll say discussion should be on - how we make riders ride in a safe manner so that the need to put riding gear through test doesn't come.

So you plan to give the leading duties to the newest joinees? Brilliant!!

What if the you are leading, 2nd and 3rd guy is the new joinee who is sticking to you since you are riding at his pace, but the #3 fellow has some trouble which the #2 doesn't realize since he is not aware of group dynamics and doesn't stop.

[nav75]

But thats something they are used to since they ride there everyday. What they might not be used to is crosswinds/ a bug hitting the eye at high speed / turbulence due to a passing truck. When I started off I couldn't take a sweeping corner at 50 confidently. Those are not skills that city-only riding can teach you.

Crosswind can be experienced on the road that is slightly in open and also in city limits too. For example, in Pune, the NH4 section that goes to Hinjewadi. Thousands of people commute on it daily. You can experience enough crosswind and suction due to truck/bus passing you.
Bug hitting the eye - wearing a helmet will save you from it.

So you plan to give the leading duties to the newest joinees? Brilliant!!

Read again, I said the "slowest" guy would be at head and then I used to be the slowest and hence at head.
Plus I hardly ride now a days.

What if the you are leading, 2nd and 3rd guy is the new joinee who is sticking to you since you are riding at his pace, but the #3 fellow has some trouble which the #2 doesn't realize since he is not aware of group dynamics and doesn't stop.

For that, the faster guys at the tail are there. Some could stop to help #3 and some could chase others (as others will be riding slower and the guy is faster) and stop them.
Also, as a rule of group riding, we used to make sure everyone has atleast one working condition RVM. Each rider was supposed to keep looking at the guy behind in RVM and slow down if he doesn't see him & eventually stop if not seen him for long - this when propagated correctly till the head, will eventually slow down and stop the pack. All these are the group riding rules, shared in advanced and know to everyone coming for the ride.

Just to mention, my reference to "slowest" & "fastest" is with respect to the combo of rider+bike.

[razorBlades]

So you plan to give the leading duties to the newest joinees? Brilliant!!

What if the you are leading, 2nd and 3rd guy is the new joinee who is sticking to you since you are riding at his pace, but the #3 fellow has some trouble which the #2 doesn't realize since he is not aware of group dynamics and doesn't stop.

Hey antz, i understand your point, but..

A group ride is something which is organised. Whenever I go on for group rides there is always someone who does the briefing like what to do and what not to do before the ride. I have done it myself a few times.

1. Avoid overtaking the fellow riders and never overtake the leader.
2. Always keep one rider atleast in your rear view mirror, If you cant see one rider, slow down and the whole pack slows down to make sure everything is ok.
3. Ride at your own pace.
4. The one who organises the ride has the right to tell the riders to un-dock from the pack. I have done it a couple of times. one example, we were riding to Malshej ghat back in 2008 i guess, found one newbie in r15 who did not look confident on the curves. So we just politely asked him to head back home with another rider to make sure he reaches safe. He missed two major crashes when we decided to tell that to him and it was briefed before the beginning of the ride.

likewise we can put some ground rules before the start of the ride.

Just my few cents, not sure it will or wont work.

PS: I always support AGATT!

[antz.bin]

Crosswind can be experienced on the road that is slightly in open and also in city limits too. For example, in Pune, the NH4 section that goes to Hinjewadi. Thousands of people commute on it daily. You can experience enough crosswind and suction due to truck/bus passing you.
Bug hitting the eye - wearing a helmet will save you from it.

Not all roads in India are 4 lane.

Read again, I said the "slowest" guy would be at head and then I used to be the slowest and hence at head.
Plus I hardly ride now a days.

Could you please tell me what method you have of determining who is faster and who is "slowest" on their first ride with you. I could use this knowledge.

For that, the faster guys at the tail are there. Some could stop to help #3 and some could chase others (as others will be riding slower and the guy is faster) and stop them.
Also, as a rule of group riding, we used to make sure everyone has atleast one working condition RVM. Each rider was supposed to keep looking at the guy behind in RVM and slow down if he doesn't see him & eventually stop if not seen him for long - this when propagated correctly till the head, will eventually slow down and stop the pack. All these are the group riding rules, shared in advanced and know to everyone coming for the ride.

Just to mention, my reference to "slowest" & "fastest" is with respect to the combo of rider+bike.

This was just a hypothetical situation. There are a million possibilities on the road.

[alankarmisra]

Read again, I said the "slowest" guy would be at head and then I used to be the slowest and hence at head.
Plus I hardly ride now a days.

Just to mention, my reference to "slowest" & "fastest" is with respect to the combo of rider+bike.

I'd actually go with Antz.bin on this one. The lead has more responsibility than just setting the pace. The major responsibility of being in the lead is for him to bear the risk of everything unanticipated be it blind corners, road issues, [anything else you can think off and I'm sure there are many] and acting as an early warning system for the riders behind him. As for setting the pace, any experienced lead will tell you that within the first 15 to 20 minutes its easy to figure out what pace is the most comfortable for the group - too fast and you start seeing headlights trailing far into the distance, too slow and some noob will land up overshooting you somewhere along the line and the headlights seem squished in the rearview. So yeah, the lead need not be the slowest.

[satyenpoojary]

Antz: What Nav said is a method.
Don't question the method unless you don't get the intent behind the method.
Knowing you, am sure you understood his intent.

[nav75]

Not all roads in India are 4 lane.

It was an "example". In fact, when I started riding, there were hardly any 4lane roads.

Let me rephrase. Crosswind, Suction due to truck/bus/volvo passing you - can be experienced by any city rider when riding in a city.
Almost all decent sized cities will have a open road, inside or on outskirts where a city rider would have ridden. Tucks/bus/volvo, all are allowed to travel in city.

Could you please tell me what method you have of determining who is faster and who is "slowest" on their first ride with you. I could use this knowledge.

As I said:
"Just to mention, my reference to "slowest" & "fastest" is with respect to the combo of rider+bike."
If its a unknown person, the bike will be the first thing to decide (with no disrespect to owners of any bike). Ask the person, if he will be ok to do so and so speeds (assuming the person will be mature enough to understand things - else we have another problem to deal with). Later, if found that he is slotted in middle of pack but is unable to keep up(the riders at tail - faster, experienced will be able to figure it out), can be moved to the head of pack. Someone who is not comfortable with the speed of group, it won't take ages to figure it out.

This was just a hypothetical situation. There are a million possibilities on the road.

That's why I said:
"More than discussing about riding gear(to make it compulsory or not), I'll say discussion should be on - how we make riders ride in a safe manner so that the need to put riding gear through test doesn't come."

The lead has more responsibility than just setting the pace.

That's why I said the slowest guy will be at the head along with another guy who knows the route (one of the experienced one). Unless both the jobs can be done by the same person.
Edit: Also, there is no hard and fast rule. This is what we followed most of times. Now that you have mentioned, my-going-weak memory reminds me of some instances where we didn't follow this style and fall back on the one that you mentioned.

[alankarmisra]

A group ride is something which is organised. Whenever I go on for group rides there is always someone who does the briefing like what to do and what not to do before the ride. I have done it myself a few times.

Except that perhaps this is not being done on a majority of rides at all cause the rides are circumventing every xbhp group riding protocol there is to circumvent so they can do can FFE comparisons and bring along pillions without full gear which is exactly what Satyen is trying to address by saying let us not isolate them and let them come into the mainstream rides so that WE can take responsibility for ensuring that the protocols are met in a non-confrontational way (I have learnt perhaps the hard way that confrontation actually reduces understanding of key issues at hand). Mandates only kill the dialog.

[satyenpoojary]

Nav: most people in mumbai anyway ride with the gear.. The problem is a two fold problem.
1) The "gear-less" chaps and chicks are reluctant and they form their own small "Kiran" club and are still prone to that risk, both as individuals and at times even as a group trying to ape us
2) The geared ones here are forgetting the sheer dynamics of 'group' riding... Every ride is turning into a speed fest of sorts, and that brings a problem of disrespect (of sorts) to the outcasts

[nikhilym55]

we (my college riding grp) tried to take noobs with us and out of 4, two times our rides ended in hospitals and had close encounters in remaining 2 times which includes fall into valley..


So I think during such situations old experienced rider should give his/her gears to newbies, because these guys on their first ride have utterly no experience of highway traffic, cornering with them is way lonng..

[nav75]

@Satyen: I had my share of discussion about riding gear(what all and when to make compulsory, etc), here in recent past. Don't want to get into it again.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I guess you also want to do something like the following (and not making riding gear compulsory so that everyone can join and learn "safe riding")?
"More than discussing about riding gear(to make it compulsory or not), I'll say discussion should be on - how we make riders ride in a safe manner so that the need to put riding gear through test doesn't come."