i have the RC FFE installed and no other mods.
what would be the next step for gains?

are the cam and air filter,the best options at this point!

if so,which should i opt,high lift or mild lift cam?
stock replacement or conical filter?

Essentially you have 2 paths open to you. The first one is a 'big bang' method whereby you go whole hog and do a number of things together. The second is a more deliberate and 'step by step' approach.

If you want to take the 'big bang' approach you have the option of getting the big bore 180cc, along with head work, revised cam timing, bigger carb and CDI.

If you want to take a more deliberate 'step by step' approach then the first thing that you need get done is the head work. In a four stroke, the cylinder head is the single most important component for improving power output. Head work that will improve and optimise flow and prevent charge robbing will pay more dividends than any other change. Also note that most other changes will not reap their full dividends without a cylinder head that flows efficiently.

Therefore, my take is that if nothing else, you need to get the cylinder head work done before you can contemplate any further changes.

i was planning for the big bore,air filter and camshaft in first stage.

the carb was in the cards but not in stock at RC.

the carb,clutch springs and CDI will be next in line.

already have FFE.

Re: Modified FZ16, FZ-S, Fazers owners Tech Talk

Bump



Sent from my WT19i

I can understand how excited you can get when planning engine upgrades.
Here is just my opinion of what "I" would do. Feel free to disregard or follow.

To me there is no point getting your engine to flow better only to have a restriction at the start of it (carb)
I'd recommend the airfilter - carb - cyl head (cam, valves etc) as 1 upgrade.
You will have to tune the carb after your head work, then tune the new carb.
Not sure how much $ the tuner charges per tune but to hold off a little while until the carb is in stock would be a better plan.

Pin Outside Diameter
piston (measured outside the pin)
14.995-15.000 mm
Limit
14.975 mm

Inner diameter of
piston pin (measured inside the piston)
15.002-15.013
Limit
15.043 mm

Clearance piston pin - bore
the piston pin hole diameter =
inside the piston pin hole "b" -
Outside diameter of piston pin "a"


Hope that helps.

So 15mm it is. Now another doubt. Whats deck height of stock piston?

20mm.from center of pin. Forget the exact tolerances as they are given in the workshop manual (and that Mik nicely gave).
But my question is: what do you need these numbers for??? If this is in hope of finding some alternative piston on the aftermarket, you will need MANY more information than those!

Its for souping up an FZ with minimal costs.
Current options are RTR180 piston @ 62.5mm, has the same gudgeon pin profile of 15mm and a deck height of 21mm.
As for fueling, thinking of the VM28.

To make it easy for your measurement: from edge of piston pin to deck is 12.5mm (+ 15/2= 20)

Minimal costs - maybe? - , but minimal results: sure!!

You will have to rework the dome of the piston (can it be done? Is there enough metal, specially after removing one millimeter of it?) as the valves of the FZ are offset while those of the Apache are "in line". You will also have to extract the sleeve of the cylinder, and have a new one inserted, with guarantee that the contact between the sleeve and the cylinder will not be as good as the original one => diminished cooling capability.

I cannot understand that one who lives in the same country as Joel Joseph, who can provide you with a perfect quality and well worked out 180cc. piston and cylinder without any import taxes as we would get, goes for some near destructive action of his bike instead of saving a little and getting the proper stuff.

Sorry: I can't help you.

Doing things "on the cheap" can work, Providing you have contacts and the know how to do the spanner twirling yourself.
Mostly you will be saving on labor as you will be doing it yourself. Materials cost won't be that cost saving vs labor costs.
High quality parts cost money, No way around getting them cheaper. A $300 piston still costs $300 regardless of who installs it.
Don't forget tooling up if you havn't got tools yet. Specialized tools you only use for a rebuild may be expensive and blow your budget out, and can end up costing more than the expected savings.

If you are experimenting or learning then go for it but take the time to put pencil to paper. Do the maths before. Make sure everything measures up and you have a 100% fit on paper before you open the first bolt.
If the sums don't add up then chances are when you open your engine the parts won't play nice.
Don't leave nothing to chance. Do it in a thorough disciplined manner and you will be ok.

If all you are doing is a piston swap with a enlarged bore then it shouldn't be too hard to do.

Regarding RC's products, There have been a vocal minority who have had pistons seizing, scuffing and damaging the bore. Possibly due to piston to bore clearances being incorrect. These have been on other bikes though there was one case where it was on a FZ, After a quick swap out it was ok.

Just couple of point to make here;

First is that its not as if only aftermarket parts can have problems of seizing and scuffing. It can and does happen with stock bikes that have supposedly passed through quality checks. Lucky Luke's stock bike with a leaky valve is an example of the same.

Secondly, while one can experiment as much as they want, they need to be aware of the risks and failure are part of the game (have buckets load of 2 stroke parts to prove it). The advantage of RC parts is that they have tried and tested, thereby reducing the amount of risks. Also, Joel replaces any parts found defective and stands by his products. Which I think is more than can be said about many of the so called performance parts suppliers. My only issue with him is the time he takes to deliver.

Your preaching to the choir (me) on this one mate, The only reason why I didn't go with a RC 180cc kit was the time Joel took to reply back to my queries and his lack of answers to my questions.
I too am well aware of what can go wrong with mismatched parts and wrong clearances.

There seems to be the belief that if you get supplied the "kit" from someone, Be it Joel or others that they will automatically play nicely together. This as we all know "should" happen but in reality it is up to the customer or mechanic who does the final assembly to do the measuring, the calculations before turning the first bolt. This way any unexpected surprises are kept to a minimum.
I'd be willing to bet that Joel himself measures his parts before installing them on his race bike/s checking for himself and not trusting the manufacturer and machinists. So should we his customers. I'm sure who ever sold the kit would he happy to know of a potential problem before it becomes a expensive one.

My 66mm piston for example, Had new valve pockets machined out, However they were for a stock head, Not for my over sized valves. Had "we" just assembled it together I would have ended up with bent valves and a broken engine. This was discovered in one of the many mock-ups and a new piston sourced, valve reliefs machined into it, mocked up again and it was fine.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say if the parts had been checked, ie measured correctly in the various places needed (eg 3 depths in the bore, 90deg apart and the same again with the piston) and the calc's added up to within the new tolerances of the new piston (it will differ from the factory piston due to different metallurgy and construction) then there is no reason why the piston and bore cannot work together, Providing the clearances are suitable for the purpose of the engine.
Drag engine will have different specs Vs a Endurance engine Vs Race circuit engine Vs Street engine Vs something that has rolled off the factory showroom.
Experience will tell you if you need to add a little more clearance in certain areas (eg champher oil journals or reduce oil ports to keep oil where its needed)


Taking the "She'll be rite" approach (Aussie slang for it will be ok, just go ahead and do it) will bite you on your butt hard! (Been there, done that and I'll tell you, its not a nice feeling)
A lot of mechanics are not experienced in installing aftermarket parts that require extra care and attention to fit. This is why you need to take your expensive non standard parts to a reputable and experienced engine assembler to do the final checks and assembly, Not the guy with his dirty greasy shop on the street corner like we see in Vietnam (and other countries I'm sure) Sure you can get them to assemble it providing YOU or someone you trust has done their homework to ensure they will "play nicely"

Sorry, not trying to preach you anything. This thread is a discussion and I just contributed my view point.

No need to apologize mate, We are both on the same page. We both understand what is required.