Re: Piston & Cylinder warping test

Instead inlet and exhaust port are modified to allow more fuel-air mixture and exhaust gases. Which doest work that good as claimed

Re: Piston & Cylinder warping test

When inlet and exhaust port are modified it increases flow of gases. But still the question remains.. Is it ok to use the same cumbustion dome for a bigger dia piston and would a stock crank be able to take the stress of a bigger block?

Will the increased area of the piston create a problem with the shape and capacity of the dome remaining the same?

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Re: Piston & Cylinder warping test

You are absolutely right about the Piston top shape and Compression correction required.....
Whenever an engine mod is done to a stock engine, the maximum safe limit is 10% ...beyond which the mod is in unsafe area of engine operation and catastrophic failure will happen in due course of time....Even within the 10% margin, many aspects of mod must be made within safe operating area....Like you said the compression should be near stock value(within10%), squish area should strictly not be disturbed, crankshaft and con rod , and the bearings should be capable of handling the increased stress,engine oil and coolant flow increased to take care of cooling and lube requirements, in short every aspect of an engine operating parameter must be carefully re done to suit the enhancement. All this is possible only when you have the design details of the engine, which is why I always insist that it is better to leave stock design as it is, and for more power , either sell off the present motor and/or go in for a higher powered motor....End of the day the cost of upgrading and associated non reliability is simply not worth it....Add the cost of modification to the sale of your present bike and buy a higher powered motor...at least you will have reliability, Warranty ,People answerable to you,and not give lame excuses, availability of Parts, and authorized service to back you up,without blame game....

Of course a 10cc increase in a 220 cc engine is well within the 10% margin...but the bad workmanship , poor attention to detail , and a lack of commitment, had lead to failure, leading to the individual's upgrade to become a nightmare

Re: Piston & Cylinder warping test

As a general yardstick the shape and the size of the dome will require modification. At the very least the squish band diameter needs to be match with the cylinder. However, all said, the changes to the dome need to be considered on case to case basis.

As far as the stock crank is concerned, once again you will need to consider the issue on individual case to case. Also designed considerations will be based upon the your criteria. For example, if you are building a endurance engine, it will be different, a short life drag engine, it can be different, a road racing engine that needs to survive for 1,500 kms before overhaul intervals, it will be different.

It is possible that the crank is over engineered. But in cases where the crank is just good enough for the current displacement, in cases 2 & 3 mentioned above, it still might work. However, for a endurance engine, you would need to make changes to the crank, for example a stronger connecting rod, a rebalanced crank and a modified weight compensation for any extra weight added.

P.s.: my current project is a endurance engine for my R15. It is an interesting experience, which I will record on my thread once it's completed.


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Re: Piston & Cylinder warping test

There are many other small components like bearings,timing chain, oil galleys etc.
The most important being bearing, which is the most neglected components people consider while building engines.
If the bearings are not adequate then it hampers the performance and life of the engine.
Just to give an example earlier car engines were more larger for given displacement as compared to today.
But these same engines had some components which were over engineered like bearings, specially the crank bearing, oil pumps,etc.
I would say just to refer another thread on Tbhp regarding the baleno turbo build.
The have made nearly thrice the power over stock with OEM cast pistons. They just did and changed the stuff where it was required.

As psr sir said every aspect should be considered and studied before modifying as all of them are inter related.
One thing affects the other.

Re: Piston & Cylinder warping test

Thank you for your kind words.

Nothing much rather than what has already been thoroughly discussed across other threads. If one is using GEN 1/2 FFEs from RC then installing high temperature resistant ceramic glasswool like it is done in OEM Bajaj exhausts will help. Such glasswool will be resistant to high operating temperatures and will last longer.

Yes sir,

although a very crude method, as per my experience the "Race Tooner's" kits are so inferior that this test alone will allow the unsuspecting Noobs and riders to identify that they have been sold a dud piece and then can take necessary action against him.

I am overwhelmed!! However, it would be totally wrong on my part not to give credit to all the senior riders like [MENTION=32286]psr[/MENTION] ji , [MENTION=26077]abhimanyu31[/MENTION] , moderators and even the readers of the thread who have been patient, supportive and are now keenly questioning things instead of blindly following a self glorified Race Tooner.

Facts and data have been laid in front of everyone.. rest is for all you gentlemen to decide whether it is plain words or does have some value...

Again, the credit goes to everyone including you and all other readers for reading, understanding and encouraging me to write more along with providing facts and data. I hope i am able to live up to the expectations.

LOL!! sir that was the most hilarious post i have ever read!! No tuner in his right mind would ask someone to use a mallet to force in a piston inside a warped cylinder!! One normally uses a wooden mallet and gently taps the piston in position to let it slide in inside the cylinder.

That is the difference between a good tuner and a "Tooner". A good tuner/aftermarket performance specialist will first calculate the increase in stress due to increase in cubic capacity and will also do stress tests of various parts of the engine. If he finds that the stock parts cannot handle the extra load then stronger con rod, crank, con rod bearings etc. will be swapped with the stock parts to reduce the stress on the engine. A Tooner will just sell you the kits and let you fend for yourself without giving you any proper data or set of instructions to do things right.

Luckily Yamaha has been very kind in ensuring that for a 153cc engine of FZ, the crank and the con rod has been designed to handle almost twice the stress what a stock engine can ever put on it. Other senior riders have already shared their perspective on the same so i guess i need not blabber too much on the topic nor i am the expert in this field. But to my basic level of understanding, based on the calculations of the tuner if needed the cavity of the head is chiseled, shaved, made bigger and polished for controlling the compression ratio to the desired level or if needed add lower or head gaskets for the same like it has been extensively discussed on the Fiero thread.

I have had a long discussion with Mr. Vikram on the same and this time we will first blue print the engine and then let this gentlemen do his work when we are going for the proper build with the NiKaSil block. I shall try and document the whole build and how we started the new chapter in getting things done the right way

Cheers,

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

The reason I asked the question is, many people have bought just the bb kit, a free flow filter and a ffe and have installed them.. Without any other modifications. Not even a thought given to jetting or any other modification made to the head.

What surprised me, was the fact that unless you even know the abc of engine tech why would you want to mod an engine. People who claim that "my bike has done xxxx kms with the kit and are ok".. I would just like to say this, The average engine was designed to last about 1lac kms or roughly 7-10 yrs.. When you do such mods, you are effectively reducing the life of your engine. The power you gain from moding has to be proportionate to that loss of reliability. The loss of reliability again depends upon the ability of the tuner. The lesser the better..

So if you actually understand the problems you are likely to face and if you are willing to trust the tuner with your life, then and only then go for mods.. Otherwise take psr sir's advice and buy a bigger bike. If you wish to mod take the example of shv18 and abhimanyu and learn..

I have great respect for shv18 because of the sole reason that he did not give up.. When he was betrayed by a self proclaimed god, he learned to take matters in to his own hands. If you do not have that drive, then please do not waste your time and money running after miracle products that make you bike twice as fast.. It is the same as expecting the slimming tea from the infomercials to work..

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Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

I personally feel hot roding has received a lot of flak thanks to the wrong information passed around by someone for personal gains using words like "Bulletproof", "Better than stock", "super reliable" without providing facts, nos. and data to support the same. And we riders are equally responsible too for believing those words without doing our homework properly. If i had not received the guidance from senior riders and i hadn't struck gold by interacting with good folks at Motozone, i wouldn't be surprised if i too would have joined the league of failed experiments sooner or later and most likely would have quietly reverted to stock or opted to go for another bike.

I am deeply disturbed by the fact that instead of repeated warnings, on FB i still notice people willing to lose money on the new nonsense cooked up by Tooner of making Duke 200 a monster, better than stock, super reliable and more powerful than Duke 390 by installing a 230cc kit and what not!!

For the benefit of the readers here i would like to voice out my opinion on the same:

* Going by the history sheet of the Tooner : a Duke 200 block unlike 390 is not NiKaSil coated so the stock sleeve will be replaced with a new one and bored out to 230cc

* The piston will be from some another bike with the piston weight being on the wrong side will be chosen and shoved in the cylinder block. If the cylinder is warped.. well the rest is history!!

* What about the extra heat generated by the 230cc kit?? Stock radiator is anyways having a hard time keeping the temps under check with this short stroke motor in stock form. IF the cylinder wall is of inferior quality and cannot do heat transfer efficiently then i hope one has kept a back up of 30k to revert things to stock once the things go seriously wrong!!

* I have heard people have started playing around with ignition timings on a stock bike.. Good luck with that!! To my understanding, there is absolutely no need to change the ignition timings if there has been no change in the cubic capacity of the engine. I won't be surprised if we hear about a seizure sooner or later

* To beat a stock Duke 390 a duke 200 even highly modified has to generate a minimum of 43.5 bhp or excess along with taller gearing to achieve 172 kmph indicated speed or higher or even in the drag runs. I wonder what claims has been made by the Tooner in this department.

* What about reliability should things go wrong? We all are well aware of after sales service of our reputed Tooner.

* Where are the nos. Dyno results, Data logger nos. over 50,000 kms testing data to "put your money where your mouth is?" .

I would sincerely request people here on xbhp to do consider these factors before making the same mistakes i did with my bike or many others on this forum.

* Question everything, find the correct answers.

* Don't just go by the marketing gimmicks!

I cannot go on waving a flag on FB. But i firmly believe people on xbhp are far more mature, educated and learned riders. Do your research properly and only then decide whether it is in the best interest of you and your beloved ride or not.



Cheers,

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

You are right again...but the human spirit is all about learning ,and in a competitive environment it is about being one up than your neighbor...
Hot-rodding is all about this, and if one also learns through the process like SHV18 did , then it is rewarding . Some learn through failures and some due to lack of knowledge,panic and loose out on their experiment..these people have a costly mistake to recount on , than the expensive Learning to show in their future, like SHV18...Needless to say there are many members whose experience had been real bad, and due to fear of ridicule, and expose of lack of knowledge, had not posted their experience.....

It takes guts and a willingness to learn and better oneself , to admit a mistake...and Shv18 had just done that...and it is because of him ,and his systematic and true account of the experience that we are all able to comprehend the Bigger Picture of The Tooner's Hot rodding ability...
This thread is definitely an Eye Opener to many would be hot -Rodders,and judging by the amount of knowledge Shv18 had gained and shared here, I am sure his future posts will continue to educate us all.

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

Put this on duke 200 thread. I dont know how people believe this.. Spend 50k and you can beat 390. Lol
But they fail to think that duke 200 itself costs 1.5l + 50k will make it 2l for which you can get a brand new super reliable and powerful 390..

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

Shv18,..... your Good Intentions are likely to be twisted out of contest by vested interest and so be prepared for it.....there are many amongst us who will get their bike engine modded with the Tooner, will have failures and ,not being able to get it corrected , will silently revert back to stock,or park it in the garage ,and move up to another bike, and we will no longer hear anything from them...this had been the scene I had seen for some time .....lucky are those who had not received the parts after payment, even after months...at least their bikes are running...
I had noticed that KTM had reduced the Rev Limiter from 10,500 RPM to 10,000 now in all their 200cc bikes....There must definitely be a reason for this, since KTM is not a company manufacturing Cheap and Poor Quality bikes, a deeper look is required to understand this 500 RPM reduction. There had been numerous complaints of heating , and difficulty in cold condition ,start up and shutdown of engine......
It is better not to offer advise regarding KTM since it is still a young engine yet to be understood , and owners keen to do experiments will continue to do so till experience and wise council prevails.

----consecutive posts auto-merged-----

It is this lack of knowledge and calculation that makes them easy prey...

It is a willing suspension of disbelief.....

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

[MENTION=32286]psr[/MENTION] sir where did you get that news from??? So they gona call and remap the ecu again for all duke 200?? Or its limited to 10k rpm only in new dukes

And its one of the best engines. Superlight and strong and its stress value is even less than R15 engine

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

I believe it would be wrong on my part to do that..

As per my conversation with Mr. Vikram, my next project will be most likely A 2nd hand Duke 200. Unlike Tooner, I am not making any tall claims against a KTM Duke 390.

OBJECTIVES:

* To see if we can safely achieve 165 kmph+ without compromising the integrity of the stock KTM Duke engine.
* Better braking with implementation of Bosch 9M ABS braking mechanism on the existing vehicle with existing stock braking system.
* Better grip by using Metzeler M5 Sportec tires from 390.
* Challenge given to Motozone is to achieve better nos. while still keeping the stock exhaust config.
* No big bores.

But i guess i am jumping the gun too soon. Let me finish my FZ project first.. this is next in line folks!!


Agreed sir,

I shall refrain from posting any further on KTM henceforth on this thread...


Cheers,

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

How can you achieve that with stock bore??? And abs, is it a standalone unit?? I mean its not connected to ECU??

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

It is possible to achieve those speeds. However, we are doing further research on how to keep things ticking as reliable and as "bullet proof" as stock without implementing a BB kit. The ABS unit is a separate unit and has nothing to do with the ECU. For safety at higher speeds the Metzelers have been short listed as a better bet for grip in both dry and wet tarmac conditions. Motozone is busy on a new project with one client.. so waiting to see the outcome. If all goes well, i shall share the data and Go Pro videos of the same..

But more on this later. I see no point of cooking "imaginary biryani" without implementing it practically right?? At the moment research and stock components reliability and strength testing is on. Once, i have the vehicle in my hands and we start the project more shall be revealed..


Cheers,