Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

Hi All,

Forgive me for a late reply, but i intentionally chose to take a backseat and see how readers and riders of this thread have so far understood the subject of hot roding and also question things against the latest comments of the "Parts Supplier". It was really sad to see, in between few of the members getting carried away by emotions and writing comments which had absolutely nothing to do with the issue in hand.

Regardless, i am happy to note that the moderators have delicately handled the situation and kept the spirit and the integrity of this thread intact. You deserve a sincere thanks and appreciation from everyone for the thankless job carried out by you behind the scene. RESPECT I feel i have nothing much to write since, all the respected members beforehand have already raised very valid points and made it clear to the readers, especially the Noobs against certain statements made by the "Parts Supplier".

However, if i may respectfully, i would like to just highlight a few things based on my observations :

1) For the first time in xbhp's history, thanks to the efforts and support from all the readers, we have collectively achieved in making the "Parts Supplier" come out in the open and admit:

* There are issues with these kits regardless of whichever versions. So the claim of Bullet proof reliability can now be thrown out of the window.

* Being high compression set ups, they may last 0 kms or 40,000 kms = no certain guarantee that the money one spends on these kits will yield many many miles of happy and joy riding = Definitely not better than stock.

* The "Parts Supplier" admits that there have been delays from his end and people have been made to wait for a long time. Still refuses to take calls and respond against the queries of a disgruntled customer but has enough time to write a long post claiming things which doesn't seem to be right or ethical in anyway.

* One has to come to blore to get the kits installed for reliable installation and that all the local mechanics are not competent enough as per the "Parts Supplier" to handle these kits = Not plug and play at all!!

2) The "Parts Supplier" still refuses to admit that the kits are not developed/engineered/manufactured by him and his entity whereas the data shared on the previous posts of this thread proves otherwise.


3) The "Parts Supplier" confirmed that the high lift cam sold to the consumers performs better on the top end due to the nature of the design (Which again as the data on this thread suggest, is not designed by the "inhouse" team) thus the low and mid range is severely affected which in turn is not good for the streets/city conditions where an average rider is riding mostly in low and mid - range. Thus, the streetable factor is questionable. Such cams are good for a race track but on street? Well you all are now a better judge of it.


4) The "Parts Supplier" has also made claims about "stitching noise or tailor saab noise" issue related to the camshaft sold by him for the FZ being sorted out, which as per the earlier logs reported of rider n-o-v-i-c-e is not the case as he had followed every instruction laid down by the supplier and still couldn't be relieved of the issue.


5) The "Parts Supplier" still thinks that this thread is all about promotion of a tuning house, whereas the last 80 pages of logs, reports and data shared with you gentlemen proves otherwise.


6) The "Parts Supplier" claims on my behalf that a concerned tuning house made exclusive deal with me to offer kits for cheap or free to promote them, apparently the other tuning house in question has made the claims that all the kits are manufactured by them.

If my memory serves me right: besides the prototype ported head, the highlift camshaft & the proposed NiCaSil kit (a project which was shelved off due to cost factors), there has been no such claims made on this thread regarding the same. I would encourage all the readers to check the earlier report logs of this thread and confirm. "Parts Supplier" also expects data like ignition curve to be shared for the CDI etc., whereas since its inception there are no such no data available from his end, except seat on the pants reviews.

Apparently the CDI for the FZ has been developed by his tuning house. So to break this blunder, i would like the readers to have look at the following pictures below and then attempt an exercise:



Pic 1: RC CDI sold to the customers for various carburetted bikes. The one shared above is for a Yamaha FZ/Byson/Fazer.



Pic 2: Another image of the CDI. Image courtesy: a fellow rider who was cheated by the "Parts Supplier".



Pic 3: Once the stickers of RC were removed by the owner, the brand name of the CDI can be seen clearly in the pic above.

Now dear readers, i would request everyone of you to use your respective internet search engines and type "Neo Dual Band CDI". I am pretty sure, your searches will lead to a website called BRT Racing or famously known as "Bintang Racing Team". You are free to decide what to make out of it!

7) The "Parts Supplier" still has no answers for kits shipped to respective people which were found broken, carburettors were sent with wrong jet sizes (for your kind information 112.5 main jet comes as standard on BS 29 carb from Bajaj and 125 mainjet on RTR BS 29 carbs, as the earlier report logs on this thread will suggest), broken parts, no sign of delivery, no after sales support, no apology or refunds were ever made!!

I feel the above points are more than enough! This thread has clearly highlighted the loopholes in all the claims and statements made by the "Parts Supplier", the dangers of hot roding and the ways to correct certain issues etc. I am really happy to note that in some way this thread has been able to provide some form of data, information and the encouragement to the respective readers, especially the Noobs to question everything before getting carried away by a sales pitch.

In the interest of the xbhp community and my fellow riders, i shall continue posting more informative posts and data so that all of us can collectively learn more about engines and share as well..


Do let me know if my blabbering so far has been helpful to the readers..
Sir,

Thanks for posting your initial experience. For the benefit of the community, i would request you to do share long term experience logs here as you clock more miles so that the readers get a better grasp of the same and the possibility of us looking at a better form of hot roding without compromising the integrity and the reliability of the engine. It is always encouraged to share data and report logs on this thread.

Thanks again..



SUPERLIKE Sir!! I second your opinion!!

For readers:

* Question everything,
* do your home work,
* understand more about your bike's engine,
* do calculations about cost per bhp before taking a plunge!!
* Hot roding yes for an enthusiast, No for a person expecting sun, moon and stars without understanding the repurcussions.


Cheers,

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

@ Shv18...Another Very Good Post with facts and not self proclaimed brilliance or achievement.Your post clearly shows how Trading in the name of R&D had been done by a Parts Supplier, taking the unsuspecting members for a Ride.

For the sake of all Members here I would like to Borrow your Observations...

" * Question everything,
* do your home work,
* understand more about your bike's engine,
* do calculations about cost per bhp before taking a plunge!!
* Hot roding yes for an enthusiast, No for a person expecting sun, moon and stars without understanding the repercussions. "

Your last FIVE Lines are the essence of what the Thread is all about....

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

Now, where did the thumbs up button go? I would love to make this thread a sticky, but that being said, very good initiative Shiv, and excellently compiled. I think the proof is in the pudding, and you you've laid the pudding with the proof for everyone to make their own decisions.

Keep up the good work!

Cheers!
VJ

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18


I guess there are more innovations and R & D waiting to be unraveled.

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

[MENTION=20185]akki[/MENTION] My tryst with RC dates back to 2010 buddy. JFYI, My ride (FZ16) has all the mods that could possibly be done. Neither am I praising anyone here nor am I considering someone as an underdog. This is any open forum wherein members have the absolute liberty to let out their views. Should you think this thread is getting spoilt, get it password protected so as to have one sided interactions. Cheers

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

[MENTION=11828]Joel[/MENTION] it would be good if you could clarify the questions raised by Shv18. There are some very interesting observations noted. This thread is just not about bashing RC and you. If you still feel this is about bashing you and RC, then I think you should come into the discussion and explain things. If RC has indeed made the CDI in the pictures above and you have the original drawings etc, then please share that and put to rest all the questions. Please solve doubts in the mind of all the people and this can only be done by you!! Awaiting your quick response.

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

This thread had become a reference on Hot rodding and what all are likely to cause problems.......It is also helping people to Copy Paste the contents and clarify important points.
Hope the Thread continues without any un necessary intervention and with useful and educative posts .

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

OT
[MENTION=32286]psr[/MENTION] Sir, is there any ways Xbhp as a community can help solve problems being faced by hot rodding. I agree that this thread is very informative and anyone who wants to modify their bike must read it, but its reach is limited to people referring it to others and those subscribed to it. I see a lot of things on the Xbhp main page. Maybe we can add some permanent article there??

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

See you're contradicting yourself here, please don't get me wrong. This thread was all but an excellent treasure trove of topics, still is. The intervention of hot-rodding is making this thread more like a rant section for all the fellow folks who've had a bad experience.

Now you agree this thread is all but informational, but how does one make it reach? By posting the same stuff all over again and again? NO! One needs to stop posting posts which are in no way related to the topic on hand. And even if this topic is made mainstream, or sticky, it's not gonna help much but exacerbate even more.

Hot-rodding is a very sensitive issue and it's real hard to see the stings inflicted to the members who've had the worse of the experience. But continuing to post them here is in no way going to buffer the effect of such modifications. So I don't think there is any reason in this thread to continue on lambasting on yesteryear things. At least folks now know not to indulge in self-proclaimed tin cans and metal blocks.

I think [MENTION=32286]psr[/MENTION] ji, why don't we create a thread, depicting the disadvantages of unapproved/non-certified hot rodding and close the thread and make it sticky? In that case, people would quickly be able to retrieve the information and keep themselves informed.

Cheers!
VJ

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

At this point of time an attempt is being made to bring forth the perils of Hot Rodding in this thread , and the decision to go for mods ,and the subsequent problems rests with the decision. Further action on this will be decided at the appropriate time.
Some of the senior members are already helping out..

Lets learn more about engines Part 3

Hi All,

Seems this series of posts are becoming extremely popular.

Again for Noobs, who have skipped the earlier pages and jumped into reading the last pages, this post may hold no significance and the topic of the discussion will sound alien to you. It is recommended to read the initial report logs of this thread and understand the topic in hand, only then you would be able to relate to all that is shared below.

Anyways, moving on let's start our class with the topic of the day:

How an Auto Decompression unit in a stock camshaft works:



Now readers please bear in mind that the camshaft above doesn't belong to any of the bikes launched in India. However, having said that, the principle and functioning is more or less similar. All modern motorcycles come with this feature right from the factory. I would request the senior riders to kindly elaborate more on this, especially for the engineering enthusiasts as i feel going too technical from my side would be not right.

In a layman language, the reason an auto decompression unit is installed by the manufacturer, is to release unwanted compression through the exhaust valve by keeping it slightly open during the time of cranking of the engine. The moment the engine reverse cranks accidently, this feature helps to release the excess gas pressure through the exhaust valve thus, saving the internal components like the starter motor and the starter clutch who go through a tremendous amount of stress to load the engine and rotate it in order to start the engine of our respective vehicles. The Auto decompression Unit as the name suggests, switches off automatically once the engine gathers speed during operation, due to the centrifugal force exerted on it with the high speed rotation of the camshaft: so it poses no threat to the speed, performance and reliability of the engine when running at high speeds.

I am sure the next question is: "What's that gotta do with the Parts Supplier and his kits?" A lot of R15 owners who were"Tooned" recently may recollect from their experience that the starter motor and the starter clutch would give away in a very short span of time when using the so called "better than stock" street high lift camshaft where the "Parts Supplier" would always recommend to install it without the decompression unit. When the owner questioned the "Parts Supplier" about the same, the usual comment was "The starter motor and the clutch on an R15 is really weak man! get it replaced, nothing is wrong with my kits!"

To a lesser informed rider this may sound to be true. In reality, what the"Parts Supplier" is doing is a simple trick used by magicians all across world: MISDIRECTION!! If by now the readers have understood the importance of an auto decompression unit, they will now be able to relate to the fact: the important role it plays as a redundant system to ensure that the reliability and the longevity of stock motor is not compromised under any circumstances. With high compression kits and without the decompression unit to assist in relieving the extreme pressure exerted by the piston on an event of a reverse cranking, the whole load goes to the starter motor and the starter clutch leading to an early demise of the same: costing the end user a lot of money to replace them in very short intervals! If the readers who have gone through the earlier report logs on this thread may recollect, based on the suggestions from senior riders, on my vehicle we decided to keep the Auto Decompression Unit installed and ran it initially with the high lift camshaft sold to me by the "Parts Supplier".

When the series of problems became too much to handle and the so called assistance from the "Parts Supplier" was non existent, i had no choice left but to take matter into my own hands and approach another tuning house who as we all know by now is Motozone. When i finally installed their prototype ported head and the high lift camshaft, they were insistent on installing the decompressor unit along with the cam as they very well knew what detrimental role it played in keeping everything ticking inside the engine.

To be honest, what puzzles me is why the"Parts Supplier" would recommend removing something which plays such an important role in keeping the load away from the starter kit and that too on high compression (Third grade) kits?? Now to all the believers of "Parts Supplier", do ask yourself this question: if the starter motor and the starter clutch is so weak why does a world renowned Japanese brand like Yamaha would install such a cheap part on your vehicle?? Why the starter motor and the starter clutch doesn't give up or give any trouble to all the stock bikes clocking thousands and lakhs of kms on the road?? I feel the readers by now have learnt something more than what the "Parts Supplier" wants you to believe!

A Manufacturer of a motorcycle attempts and goes through great lengths to ensure that the engine designed by them gives the user a trouble-free experience so long as the regular maintenance and servicing is carried out diligently by the end user. Agreed not every motorcycle rolled out from the factory is absolutely perfect. But calling them idiots and not knowing anything about the very vehicle they have spent millions and thoroughly researched every aspect of it before rolling out to the end consumer is a bit too much don't you feel??

If by now for those who have understood punchline here is a small list of observations which confirm that the "Parts Supplier" doesn't know anything about the kits he sells:

* Carburettors shipped to the end user with wrong jet sizes (or stock jet sizes as we all know by now!!). On enquiring, the "Parts Supplier" will ask you to tune the carburettor to richer setting by turning the AFR screw or simply leave you to fend for yourself!

* On an event you are really in trouble, all the "Parts Supplier" would try and do is to sell you a bigger carburettor for 6+k (Which as the reports from the thread will indicate is from the breaker's yard and may cost as cheap as 800 bucks a pop!!)

* The piston kits are shoddy in quality and they are not forged at all!! The Cylinder is oval in nature thus the rings are bound to fail sooner or later!

* Without the decompressor unit, especially the R15s will face starter motor and the starter clutch going KAPUT very quickly. In short for any motorcycle, you are drastically reducing the life of the engine internals and that too from a "Parts Supplier" who has no understanding of the basics of an engine.

* The High lift camshaft is bound to give you problems in the low and mid range as it is for a race track and not for the streets. Unless you are ok with the drawbacks of stitching noise, Valves getting fried and the valve train dying a quick death, you know which one to denounce...

* The engine will knock severely as the compression is too much, leading to detonation and an early demise of the kits along with the piston cracking into two pieces. To my understanding the phenomenon of ring land breakage takes place primarily because the quality of pistons are really really bad!! A good forged piston from say manufacturers like Ross Pistons will not lead to this end result.

* The IN and Out Mark (Valve recesses) on the piston are absolutely wrong. The weight of the of the piston is on the Intake side which indicates that the piston is from some other bike. Only the Recesses have been recut to match the layout of the motorcycle's engine valve layout. If something goes wrong then the "Parts Supplier" will blame the mechanic for the wrong installation of the piston inside the cylinder whereas the truth is the mechanic has done everything by the book.. it is the piston itself which is faulty at the first place!! I am sure the readers must have already witnessed the Quality of work on @abhimanyu31 's 180cc forged piston shared a few pages back??

* I would encourage anyone who has recently gone ahead with purchasing the 165cc/172cc/180cc kit from the "Parts Supplier" for R15 and is yet to install it, to carefully inspect the piston. If you see a faint stamp of UMA Racing logo on the piston (which the supplier has desperately tried to remove!!), well then JACKPOT!! You now know one of the sources from where the kit for this vehicle is coming from!! (UMA Racing) So much for in-house casting and forging then!!

* The "Parts Supplier" is just the middle man swindling kits from abroad to the end user and making a killing in the process. Know this: There is no in-house development unit and research done unlike what the person in question wants you to believe!! What the "Parts Supplier" is offering you, any roadside mechanic will do a better job and at the third of the price!!

* "Parts Supplier" cannot handle a single cylinder, my sincere condolences to all those who have gone ahead trusting their 4 wheelers with the same salesman.

* There are better tuning houses both for 4 wheelers and 2 wheelers in India who have the common sense and will inform the rider about everything: all the gains and losses before selling you anything. A little bit of research from your end will yield you results.

So for a true hot roder, if you are still willing to go through this and get your desired result: research, research, research!!..


I hope we learned something new today...


Cheers,

Re: Lets learn more about engines Part 3

Amazing explanation on Auto decompression unit sir.

As older model enfields have manual decompression lever to release unwanted compression in the cylinder in order to prevent from engine reverse crank, otherwise the kick lever is bounced back to your leg(that will be painful). As newer model royal enfields are fitted with auto decompression unit which makes the enfields easily crankable through a simple self start.

Re: Lets learn more about engines Part 3

I wish to add my little knowledge to the thread here....
The OLDER Royal Enfield Bullet is a standing example of the Manual de-compression . When the CC of bikes and the compression ratio increased , so did the difficulty in Kick starting the engine. Any engine above 250cc was a challenge to the user in starting by kick,since the power of the "Back Kick" as the back firing was known , tend to injure the user if he is not careful.....and imagine kick starting a 350cc Bullet. If one is not careful then leg injuries were common.....so a Manual decompression was introduced to offset this problem.

A new idea dawned with the understanding of the de-compression and , a small lever to open the exhaust valve depending on the rotational direction of the CAM was introduced....
The added bonus of this feature was , in Self Start engines, it also protected the Starter Clutch and the Starter Motor from getting Damaged.
Two types of Starter Clutch are used in most bikes....The solenoid operated clutch and the Roller and weight operated one... Most Japanese engines have the Roller type since it is simple and reliable , and easy to manufacture ,and implement...There were two types in them one with independent individual units to engage, and the other the more common roller type...here are pictures of both.....



This Starer clutch depended on the Auto de-compression unit on the Cam for it's Life...If the Auto de-compression unit is not there, then any reverse rotation of crank due to back fire ,during Self Start, will harm either the Starter Clutch or the Starter Motor ......

To understand ,Visualize the Crank rotating in Reverse and the Starter Motor rotates in forward direction , ....then the Starter Clutch is caught in between Opposing Rotational Forces ...
The Auto De-compression Vents cylinder pressure and stops the engine from continued Reverse Rotation, and thus saves the Starter Clutch and Starter Motor.
A Modified High compression engine can also strain the Starter Motor and the Starter Clutch due to the excessive Load , more than what it is designed for.
Here is a video on starter clutch functioning.

Motorcycle starter clutch - YouTube

Hope this helps in understanding the critical relationship between Auto de-compression and Starter clutch .

Re: Lets learn more about engines Part 3

Absolutely spot on explanation as always sir.

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

I think it's high time here. Why not people "PLEASE" stop posting their opinions on modding altogether. Tell me where has it taken, except even more hardcore wham and whack. Please refrain from personal dogfights. This thread has become a hot topic so much so that even the Super Mods are asking me to intervene every now and then, but then I don't see progress, it's gone from bad to worse.

And again to everyone, "DON'T" indulge in publically putting forth users' FB profile, snapshots or anything that has their personal data, which is in no way related to the issue on hand. If one feels the need to do so, please contact a moderator in such a way, we can help to sort the issue out, or take the dogfights OFFLINE. NOT HERE.

And it's with displease I admonish folks not to indulge in dogfights anymore, if so, thread will be closed!

Cheers!
VJ