Engine Oils

[psr]

I dont agree with the second point. Synthetics are better than mineral in cold starts and it is not a myth its a reality.
I meant, when you use synthetics the oil has better flow characteristics than a corresponding mineral. Synthetics come as 5w40 whereas mineral comes like 20w40. 5w has ofcourse excellent flow characteristics than 20w.
l

Read my second point again..it is about cold start protection when oil is at the bottom of engine and the bore is not lubricated..under this condition It does not matter if the oil used is Synth or mineral..The fact is there is no oil film to protect the moving piton and rings rubbing against the bore WITHOUT OIL FILM in between.
In fact a small amount of oil caught in the ring landings and oil ring is the savior here at start up.So logically the thicker oil with greater viscosity has better chance of protecting the engine by sticking well with more volume of oil in the ring and oil feed area,while a thinner oil would have flowed down into the sump area.

For quicker circulation pressure it is the grade not type of oil that matters. The Ambient temperature and type of engine spec that determines the oil spec .

No engine oil has a magical " stick to bore " quality...

[muztariq]

Read my second point again..it is about cold start protection when oil is at the bottom of engine and the bore is not lubricated..under this condition It does not matter if the oil used is Synth or mineral..The fact is there is no oil film to protect the moving piton and rings rubbing against the bore WITHOUT OIL FILM in between.
In fact a small amount of oil caught in the ring landings and oil ring is the savior here at start up.So logically the thicker oil with greater viscosity has better chance of protecting the engine by sticking well with more volume of oil in the ring and oil feed area,while a thinner oil would have flowed down into the sump area.

For quicker circulation pressure it is the grade not type of oil that matters. The Ambient temperature and type of engine spec that determines the oil spec .

No engine oil has a magical " stick to bore " quality...

the engine oil 5w40 or 20w40 will have the same viscosity at operating temperatures i.e when you are riding the bike. When you park the vehicle, oil whether synthetic or mineral will flow to the sump at a similar rate, as at that temperature the mineral and synthetic has same viscosity, so no point that more viscous oil will keep sticking to the rings more as both are similarly viscous.
In the morning, when cold, the synthetic will have a better flow than a mineral as it is 5w40 and mineral is 20w40. That is why synthetics are made.. To bring flowability to the oil.. No synthetics that i know come as 20w40, even tho they surpass the specs of 20w40 criteria.
When all the oil has come down to the sump, the oil which makes the film at the least possible time and circulates faster wins the race and is better. Because of this reason in colder areas of the world if you dont put 0w or 5w oils, you will have engine starting problems. As the standard 20w mineral will just not flow at -20 deg celcius.

Thats why I never favour using 20w40 oils in summer when the oil recommended by HH is 10w30 alone. In summers the oil to be used should be 10w40. So that the cold starting viscosities remain same. But the critics will say 10w40 has more additives and the like. But my dear friends 75 percent of engine damage happens at cold start.. Replace 10w40 oil faster i.e 1500-2000 km if you are too skepticle that the additives will break down in summers more. Why jeopardise the cold start protection when engine manufacturer states 10w30 oil.
I use 10w40 shell advance ultra throughout the year. Manufacturer recommends 20w40 and 20w50. I overprotect the cold engine. The catch here is that the engine oil level should not decrease.. As you are using lower cold viscosity engine oil than the manufacturer recommended spec, there are chances that during cold start some oil may burn. If there is no fall on repeated usage - you have found your oil!! and if there is, stick to manufacturer recommendation.
People will ask why you disnt use 5w40 - yes guys, i would have loved to, but there is no bike oil in 5w40 spec or 5w50 spec available. This is widely available for cars.. But you cant use them on bikes at all. I have a litre of fully synthetic Total quartz energy 5w40 grade leftover oil from my santro. It was available in 4 lit pack and it took only 3 litre.. But I cant use that at all in my bike.. It will kill my clutch in no less than 500 kms.. Just for info.
Ride safe.

[Honda_CBF]

I am just wondering which grade oil will be used by the Russian trucks in Siberia and the Poles wherein,-40 C is normal ....and for every long halt, the tires are burnt with gasoline to bring it to operating temperature , before starting to move.

you made me remember the advert of Mobil1 0W40 super-synth

This is another myth to be kept at bay..No oil can neutralize combustion acids or prevent friction at start up...All oils are pulled by gravity to settle in the engine sump if the engine is not running......To minimize this problem it is recommended to idle the engine after startup for 30 seconds,and not to Accelerate and drive away.

I did a little research about all this and came to know about some "engine pre-lube" thingy
may be its OT but I feel it can really help
here's a google search result who are new to the term (I dont think many are!!) https://www.google.co.in/search?clie...hannel=suggest
what it does is to lubricate the piston/rings/bore before one cranks an engine!!

[Pinaki]

Replaced 1000 km used HH10w30 with 20w40Motul30004T+ . Couldn't use the HondaOEM20w40 I had got earlier as I had opened clutch-side case to clean centrifugal-filter & mesh-filter and needed full 900ml to fill(HondaOEM bottle is 800ml) . Looked for the Valvoline20w40 too (Psr'jee likes it) but nowhere to be found here in kolkata today .
Shall update about effects .

..In the morning, when cold, the synthetic will have a better flow than a mineral as it is 5w40 and mineral is 20w40..
I use 10w40 shell advance ultra throughout the year. Manufacturer recommends 20w40 and 20w50. I overprotect the cold engine...

[muztariq]

thanks pinakiji, for your correction. At -25 deg celcius there is a difference of at least 25 percent between the cranking viscosity of 10w and 20w oil. Though this difference may not be as much at 20 deg. But even if it is a mere 1 percent, I have done my bit. May be its a placebo effect, but I feel my engine is better protected at cold start :-)

I have a question here. Will using a same grade oil, having the same detergent levels and quality all round the year better. Or I should use different brand oils intermittently, so that the detergent grades and percentage change. Using the same grade oil may not be able to take away all the impurities it generates. With impurities I mean sludgey/sticky mass that may not drain with the oil change. In cars, people add oil flush and idle the enginw for 5 mins and drain the oil, then replace with fresh oil. Though I never use such treatments and am scared to put those high detergent content/caustic ingredients to the oil but can I mimic that by using different brands.
If I change the brand may be old impurities are cleared more efficiently and some new impurities gets generated which would be cleared by my earlier brand or a new brand.
Will changing brands have any negative impact on tye engine?

[HellsFury]

A question for the experts:
Is it OK to use Motul 300V 15W50 for the CBR? Honda Throttle is 10W30 and I am not quite happy with it. A friend got the 300V and his bike feels a lot more refined.

[muztariq]

Replaced 1000 km used HH10w30 with 20w40Motul30004T+ . Couldn't use the HondaOEM20w40 I had got earlier as I had opened clutch-side case to clean centrifugal-filter & mesh-filter and needed full 900ml to fill(HondaOEM bottle is 800ml) . Looked for the Valvoline20w40 too (Psr'jee likes it) but nowhere to be found here in kolkata today .
Shall update about effects .
Would have been a very valid consideration had you been living in places where summer means that ice is melting (ambient temperatures just above zero) . When there is a feet or two of snow on the garage roof , people do worry about oil flow at cold-cranking , and I understand that .
Also as you say , if your 10w40 oil is decreasing a bit , it is certainly not burning at startup , but during high speed runs when your engine is heated and the thinned oil slips past rings & seals . Try a spit test on barrel fins after running 20kms at high rpms at noon .

Viscosity - The Physics Hypertextbook

One of the myths busted..

[psr]

There is a big difference between what is published on paper and real life application...a simple 20w40 mineral from different manufacturer have different quality in engine smoothness, gear shift feel,top speed, and the life of oil itself...for instance I had never used any oil other than mineral and 20w40 in my ZMA, and I can confidently say that the Valvoline being used now is the best so for...my FE had gone up from 39~40 to 41~42. same bike same filling station,same riding style,same route,same timing,same traffic...over 4,000 Kms.Here is a chart for Synthetic oils ,and you will be interested to see the w40 grade oil having different temp grade application based on base oil number....

[muztariq]

There is a big difference between what is published on paper and real life application...a simple 20w40 mineral from different manufacturer have different quality in engine smoothness, gear shift feel,top speed, and the life of oil itself...for instance I had never used any oil other than mineral and 20w40 in my ZMA, and I can confidently say that the Valvoline being used now is the best so for...my FE had gone up from 39~40 to 41~42. same bike same filling station,same riding style,same route,same timing,same traffic...over 4,000 Kms.Here is a chart for Synthetic oils ,and you will be interested to see the w40 grade oil having different temp grade application based on base oil number....

Dear sir,
I really dont know wht you are talking about. But one thing i am certain about is the graph you've shown is not for motorcycle oils.. Its for cars.
I also dont know from where mileage came in to discussion.. But to tell you, mileage difference which you have observed is totally insignificant. The mileage figures are dependant on many factors and engine oil is also ome of them. We have seen an ocean of oil coming into market labelled 'energy conserving' they just do it by puttinh some friction reducers. I am not sure whether those are available for bikes. A slight variation in friction reduction level in oils can do that.
Did you know if you fill up petrol at night you will get more petrol for same amount of money you pay! It depends on density difference in daytime and nightime of petrol.. You may google it.
When there is a fact and a myth only documented proofs can bust the myth.. There was numerous references to better cold start protection even in the links you shared, may be you overlooked it but its time to revisit them.
The fact remains that corresponding synthetic oils for your wXX grade is better at cold start protection - how much remains debateable.
99.99% percent of the bikers dont know what grades of oil are.. I didnt knew about them much either. I drove a splendor for a lakh kms with oil changes every six months from 'servo' costed 105 rs then 135 rs etc etc.. I didnt knew and still doesnt know what grade it was and whether it was suitable for my splendor or not..
Now that we belong to the remaining 0.01% of the biking community we should inform the juniors coming here for advice to the best of documented/experienced knowledge. I cant say go for servo and your engine will run butter smooth for life.. Even tho i have experienced it.. And just imagine same grade oil, in winters and summers of delhi for six months without oil change, and nothing actually happened, I used to change the oil by taking a look at the dipstick, now you can get the oil tested in laboratory to find out whether its gone or will serve you more!!
Cheers and love to all.

[sand_sat]

Need Help for Oil Change

Hi Everybody,

I am owing Pulsar 150 since six year
I have been using Shell Advance Ultra(10W40) during this winter.
But now its time to change the oil, and since summer is going to start now i have to switch back to 20W40 grade oil (recommendation for Pulsar).
So i want to ask can i go for Shell Advance AX5(Premium 4 Stroke Oil with RCE Technology) or Shell Advance AX3(4 Stroke Oil with RCE Technology) ?

If not suggest any other ?

[psr]

Dear sir,
I really dont know wht you are talking about. But one thing i am certain about is the graph you've shown is not for motorcycle oils.. Its for cars.
.................................................. ...............................
Cheers and love to all.

First of all let me thank YOU Muztariq , Mr. Piaki, and Honda_CBF for taking the Engine oil thread to a greater level of understanding, which will be Extremely useful to the New comer.
The only difference between Car and Bike engine oil is the friction modifiers in the car oils....
No Synthetic oil is pure Synthetic in it's true sense...it still uses parts of the base Dino oil , which is why the difference in base number in a Synthetic oil also plays a role in it's temperature application as is evident from the chart.

There is a 4 wheeler engine oil which can also be used in Bikes

It can be used in Diesel,as well as Gasoline(Petrol) engines.

[muztariq]

First of all let me thank YOU Muztariq , Mr. Piaki, and Honda_CBF for taking the Engine oil thread to a greater level of understanding, which will be Extremely useful to the New comer.
The only difference between Car and Bike engine oil is the friction modifiers in the car oils....
No Synthetic oil is pure Synthetic in it's true sense...it still uses parts of the base Dino oil , which is why the difference in base number in a Synthetic oil also plays a role in it's temperature application as is evident from the chart.

There is a 4 wheeler engine oil which can also be used in Bikes

It can be used in Diesel,as well as Gasoline(Petrol) engines.

ok.. The next level is here..
Dear sir, please dont mind me calling you sir, this is actually for the respect you have gained in my heart by helping so many new ppl out here.
No matter how hard a scientist try he cant make an engine oil for wet clutch bikes in the range 0w40 at all. This will take a lot of VIIs which will not last much. I didnt see any source of the image you pasted, just by seeng '0w' i got the idea its not a bike oil.
Bike oils are made with some friction.. If you use a pure ester like you use in car oils the friction will be extremely low and the clutch will start slipping. Do you kniw how much ester Motul 300v has - not more than 30%.. I read it somewhere.
If oil companies try to make a fully synthetic oil with 0w rating they will have to add friction gainers and not reducers.. Some oil companies are doing that.. Castrol power 1 fully synthetic and even ss has those.. Thats why this oil gives better acceleration. The oil is thin, flows faster and and the friction improvers do there work by imparting friction to the clutch.. Resulting in more power.. As the oil is smooth in nature loss in fuel efficiency is not that much.. But stll there is a loss, hence all synthetics increase fuel efficiency by a margin but this oil decreases.. I read somewhere that the fuel efficiency of an fz got as low as 20 wheres the fe was 38 before he used this oil.
Its not just viscosity modifiers and VIIs in a car oil which makes it different from bike oils..
Bike oils should contain ZDDP which is a vital ingredient for engine protection.. Car oils with catalytic converters cant use them..
As car oils do not face a lot of heat challenge there ambient temperatures, running duration, ample viacosity all changes.. Hence the graph you have shown is ouut of place. Bikes ambient temperatures are way different from the one shown in that graph.. If i bo by that graph 10w40 is the best oil for the deserts where 42deg is reached nearly daily.. But the best oil available in India for that climate is 15w50. Mobil which makes grades like 0w40 for cars cant make a 5w30 for bikes as the moment he tries, the oil will have no viscosity at all - even after adding pour point depressants.. And that oil will kill the clutch as early as a hundred kms.. Just some days back a person had a query on the fz forum here, that his clutch has died after 1600km on total quartz energy 9000 which i was talkng about some posts back.
Just have a look at the outdoor temperatures given in this link.. It appears you can use any oil for 20-100 deg celcius.. But its for cars, sadly.
Quick Valvoline and Mobile1 Oil Change and Lube at Taggart & Sons Automotive Repair

[Pinaki]

Hi Everybody,
I am owing Pulsar 150 since six year
I have been using Shell Advance Ultra(10W40) during this winter.
But now its time to change the oil, and since summer is going to start now i have to switch back to 20W40 grade oil (recommendation for Pulsar).
So i want to ask can i go for Shell Advance AX5(Premium 4 Stroke Oil with RCE Technology) or Shell Advance AX3(4 Stroke Oil with RCE Technology) ?
If not suggest any other ?

In the midst of all this debate about switching grades for this summer , Yes you can fill AX3 20w40 , good low-cost oil . Switching from full-synthetic(advance-ultra) to mineral(AX3) may give you a feel of less smoothness and pick-up , that's all , no problem .

[Honda_CBF]

First of all let me thank YOU Muztariq , Mr. Pinaki, and Honda_CBF for taking the Engine oil thread to a greater level of understanding, which will be Extremely useful to the New comer.
The only difference between Car and Bike engine oil is the friction modifiers in the car oils....

Thanks sir, Just been telling what I experienced
still eager to learn more.

No Synthetic oil is pure Synthetic in it's true sense...it still uses parts of the base Dino oil , which is why the difference in base number in a Synthetic oil also plays a role in it's temperature application as is evident from the chart.

Didnt knew that. Thanks for the info.

There is a 4 wheeler engine oil which can also be used in Bikes

It can be used in Diesel,as well as Gasoline(Petrol) engines.

I Have seen a mechanic using diesel engine oils in bikes and those bike owners dont have any complains or issues..

ok.. The next level is here..
Dear sir, please dont mind me calling you sir, this is actually for the respect you have gained in my heart by helping so many new ppl out here.
No matter how hard a scientist try he cant make an engine oil for wet clutch bikes in the range 0w40 at all. This will take a lot of VIIs which will not last much. I didnt see any source of the image you pasted, just by seeng '0w' i got the idea its not a bike oil.
0w40 's temp range is -40'C to 38'C so its basically not needed (in india)
Bike oils are made with some friction.. If you use a pure ester like you use in car oils the friction will be extremely low and the clutch will start slipping. Do you kniw how much ester Motul 300v has - not more than 30%.. I read it somewhere.
If oil companies try to make a fully synthetic oil with 0w rating they will have to add friction gainers and not reducers.. Some oil companies are doing that.. Castrol power 1 fully synthetic and even ss has those.. Thats why this oil gives better acceleration. The oil is thin, flows faster and and the friction improvers do there work by imparting friction to the clutch.. Resulting in more power.. As the oil is smooth in nature loss in fuel efficiency is not that much.. But stll there is a loss, hence all synthetics increase fuel efficiency by a margin but this oil decreases.. I read somewhere that the fuel efficiency of an fz got as low as 20 wheres the fe was 38 before he used this oil.
Its not just viscosity modifiers and VIIs in a car oil which makes it different from bike oils..
Bike oils should contain ZDDP which is a vital ingredient for engine protection.. Car oils with catalytic converters cant use them..
oil manufacturing companies now have started reducing ZDDP's (they only come into play when oil film has broken down) in bike oils too because of cat-cons and also more ZDDP does not mean more protection rather it means longer protection
As car oils do not face a lot of heat challenge there ambient temperatures, running duration, ample viacosity all changes.. Hence the graph you have shown is ouut of place. Bikes ambient temperatures are way different from the one shown in that graph.. If i bo by that graph 10w40 is the best oil for the deserts where 42deg is reached nearly daily.. But the best oil available in India for that climate is 15w50. Mobil which makes grades like 0w40 for cars cant make a 5w30 for bikes as the moment he tries, the oil will have no viscosity at all - even after adding pour point depressants.. And that oil will kill the clutch as early as a hundred kms.. Just some days back a person had a query on the fz forum here, that his clutch has died after 1600km on total quartz energy 9000 which i was talkng about some posts back.
Just have a look at the outdoor temperatures given in this link.. It appears you can use any oil for 20-100 deg celcius.. would like to correct you here buddy, its Fahrenheit not Celsius But its for cars, sadly.
Quick Valvoline and Mobile1 Oil Change and Lube at Taggart & Sons Automotive Repair

reply's in bold

[sand_sat]

In the midst of all this debate about switching grades for this summer , Yes you can fill AX3 20w40 , good low-cost oil . Switching from full-synthetic(advance-ultra) to mineral(AX3) may give you a feel of less smoothness and pick-up , that's all , no problem .

Thanks Pinak i