Re: RC kits Speed Test Log report with Functional TPS 21st June, 2013

Hi,
Looks like the TPS has reduced the aggressive nature of the bike and tamed it a bit.

As we discussed earlier i got rid of the RC FFE for the time being and so now our setup is more or less the same now.

I was supposed to get the TPS fitted this weekend but unfortunately I am out of town for this whole week and
so that mod will have to wait. I am getting impatient now.

However with the TPS locked at full I witness the first last two from your above mentioned 4 points.

So lets see what happens once I get the TPS functioning.

On the night before I left town I couldn't stop myself on finding an empty highway stretch on the outskirts.

I manged to reach a top speed of 118 km/hr with tripmeter showing a distance of 900 mtrs.
Couldn't try any further as i encountered a truck and had to slow down.


The vibrations started creeping in after 7000 rpm but they were not unbearable as you experienced.
Also the power build up starts rather early in the band, say from 2.5-3k rpm.

Mind you the TPS is locked to full and the main jet is still 117.5 size.
All this would change after the TPS mod and fitting of the 120 size main jet.

I am just jotting this down so we could compare how the bikes performed with the different mods being done one by one.

Shall get in touch once I return.

cheers...

RC kits: Stock cam revertal, Racing CDI, Leo Vince & Functional TPS 23rd June, 2013

Hi All,

as mentioned earlier, today i went and met Mr. Vikram, Motozone Performance to finetune my FZ - X. I was experiencing a lot of issues with my bike and excessive vibrations percolating to the handlebars which made riding my bike not a pleasurable activity like it used to be. So the decision was made to revert to stock cam. As a first exercise, Mr. Vikram got hold of a Torque wrench to confirm his suspicions about whether the engine bolts were overtorqued than the 22 NM required as mentioned on the workshop manual. Turns out my brilliant mechanic had not just overtorqued it but really pushed it to 40NM which is almost twice the required amount of the stock FZ/Fazer!



Pic 1: Engine cover opened up and the bolts being checked for the torque range. Recommended torque by Yamaha is 22 NM.

Anyways he then dismantled the engine head and we checked out the head reading and the carbon deposition on the piston. I am happy to confirm with the jetting done as mentioned in my earlier post, there is a chocolate brown tan on the piston and same can be seen on the head as well. So the engine AFR is stoich and optimum.



Pic 2: Piston showing a carbon build up and tan of chocolate brown revealing a good burn and stoich AFR



Pic 3: Engine head, Valves and the Spark plug revealing a tan brown deposition indicating a stoich AFR

He then got the RC cam removed from the engine head and i was shocked to see many scratch marks on it. In comparison the stock cam even after 26,000 kms had no major marks on the lobes nor on the cam bearing!



Pic 4: RC cam - note the lobes and the scratch markings on it

He installed the stock cam and using feeler gauge set the intake valve clearance at 0.08 mm and exhaust at 0.13 mm.

regardless we carried on with the re-installation of the engine. Then we moved on replacing the stock CDI with the custom pre-programmed CDI from Motozone. Since, mine is a late 2010 model, the CDI required for my bike had two ports as shown in the pic. Mr. Vikram was kind enough to let me try one from his stable. This one has 8 pre programmed ignition maps from stock to aggressive ones at the 8th setting.



Pic 5: Stock CDI for 2010 Yamaha FZ. Note the two ports on it. The newer bikes from Yamaha's stable have a single plug port.





Pic 6 & 7: Racing CDi with switchable ignition maps. The one shown in the picture has 8 switchable maps just by pressing the small red button.



Pic 8: Racing CDI for the post 2011 Yamaha FZs/Fazers with a single plug port. Motozone sells both single ignition map and 8 pre-progamme mapped CDI for the newer versions too! The one showed in the pic has a single map.

Mr. Vikram also has racing CDI for both the older and the newer models of FZ/Fazer. With single ignition map, no rev limiter to 8 pre programmed maps with no rev limiter for both single port CDI (2011 models onwards) and dual port CDI (for 2009-2010 models).

He then moved on to installing the Leo Vince GP Corsa Carbon Full exhaust system along with the DB killer insert. As per his calculations he then installed a 122.5 Mikuni genuine main jet and left the pilot and the needle jet stock of BS 29mm carburettor.



Pic 9: Leo Vince GP Corsa Carbon full exhaust system getting installed on my FZ - X.

I had earlier requested him to help me source one 15T front sprocket as i really wanted to try it out on my souped up ride. He was very kind to source one Yamaha RX 135 15T genuine front sprocket for me and got it quickly installed. Thank you sir for all your help!


INITIAL OBSERVATIONS:

So here are my initial observations after going through the new set of changes with my FZ - X and a short ride of 20 kms in moderate traffic:

* The stupid irritating stitching noise is gone. The engine even when at cold temps, there are no weird noises now coming from the engine bay. No CAM NOISE!! Silent as STOCK BIKE!

* All the vibrations from the handle bar are gone. Feels like riding a stock bike even at 8000 rpm.

* Engine revs freely all the way to and now beyond red line as there is no rev limiter with the new racing CDI compared to the stock one.

* All problems like Piston slap, engine being unhappy at lower rpms, misfiring, reverse cranking, engine shutting down for no reason at lower revs than 3k are GONE!! Starts at one go.. and is smooth. engine revs freely, rather quickly and comes back to idling revs as it would on a stock bike.

* Earlier I had reservations of power output with the RC cam now being replaced by the stock cam.. but to my surprise she is even better and the power is linear thanks to the functional TPS and the pre programmed CDI. I have just tested two maps : no. 3 and No. 5 out of 8 maps.. will test out all the rest at a later point of time and report my findings. at a small stretch i was able to hit 103 kmph without putting any effort while the DB killer was on.

* It feels like i am riding a stock bike only now with alot more power.. no engine vibes even at 8000+ rpm. Very quiet except the steady rumble from the Leo Vince

* 15T front sprocket mod is a match made in heaven for this kind of set up: No engine lugging even at 29 kmph@5th gear which is surprising! I was expecting something to happen or even weird noises coming out like rider Rylan had mentioned with his experience on his souped up FZ.... but literally nothing. She now feels even more sublime and oodles of torque and power just continuing to build up throughout the rev range!

* With the DB killer ON if one tried WOT, there is a slight hesitation from 4-5k rpms and after that FZ-X goes like a stabbed rat!! blazingly fast!! Without the DB killer the revs climb too fast to comprehend by the naked eye!! The build quality of the Leo Vince exhaust is top notch and the main stand doesnot hit the exhaust underbelly unlike it was the case with the 1st gen RC FFE i had.

So now after all these changes would i recommend RC cam to anyone?? ABSOLUTELY NOT!! it is just not worth the amount of headache with tuning, unwanted noise and vibes one would like to live with just for the sake of so called bump in performance. Initial runs confirm that the same can be achieved using a good pre mapped CDI and correct fuelling with the stock cam rather than installing an unreliable hotter cam which i am sure will reduce the life of the valve train system by almost half! With the stock cam i really cannot differentiate between riding a stock bike and a hot roded one!! just no Vibes and butter smooth performance which is astonishing!!

When i told the guys at Motozone about the 0.06 mm intake and 0.08 mm exhaust valve clearances and the decomp unit to be removed as recommended by Joel in order to reduce tappet noise and enhance performance and better harmonics with using the RC cam, at first they were puzzled! but then later they laughed off at the proposition made by the seller which seemed ridiculous to them! According to their experience, as a rule of thumb: with a higher compression set up, one normally increases the valve clearances and not reduce them as it will have devastating effects with the life of the valve train system and the valve springs not having enough room to do their work. With the way things are unfolding now.. somehow now the terms like "Race engineer", "tuner", reliability, "plug & play" a certain person's association with performance parts and tuning are slowly but steadily getting eroded from my books. As i have mentioned earlier the reports on this thread will be unbiased, true and based on my experience so forgive me supporters and haters of hot roding and for or against the self acclaimed race tuner.. but a lot of things now don't fit where they should as i now continue exploring and diving deeper into this zone.

I will also at a later stage reveal a lot of disturbing facts which i have learned and intimated to me from a lot of riders around the country via PMs, emails and FB about their not so great ending with performance kits and the shocking reasons behind so many kit failures: all shall be revealed at the right time and with facts, data and figures so that people don't start thread wars or think of me being a hater and insulting someone or questioning someone's integrity. I believe being truthful and open will help a lot of noobs and unsuspecting riders from being taken for a ride by people just waiting to make a quick buck! But more on this later..

Day after tomorrow, i am taking my ride now for a 300km test ride along with pillion load to see the changes now with the stock cam, stoich AFR, FFE and a racing CDI.


Until then Ciao


Cheers,

Re: RC kits: Stock cam revertal, Racing CDI, Leo Vince & Functional TPS 23rd June, 20

Hey Shv

The way you were supporting Joel from the beginning, I and Murali thought you were getting heavy discounts and you have become his chamcha but the way you are revealing things has surprised me but I wonder why a person having such an immense knowledge and passion towards biking has to mess up with his customers' ride by giving false information and advice.

Anyways I'm happy that truth is coming out. And I humbly request Mr. Joel sir to come with a proper benchmark so that people like me who believed in him will atleast breathe.

I have spent almost 1.3k on my new bike, I'm very much worried when you say about the life of valve-train and all.

Hope Joel will respond into this and clear all.

I also noted one thing, I don't know why people from all corners hate Joel. When we speak the name Joel they all back off. Even I had personal experience.


And also Shv can you post the RC CAM pic once again without oil on it. With oil I can't see the scratches.

Re: RC kits: Stock cam revertal, Racing CDI, Leo Vince & Functional TPS 23rd June, 20

I really wish i had come to know about Motozone guys earlier.. Then the story so far would have been a different one. In the process yes i learnt a lot of things but i am really touched by the way these guys have been professional and don't hide things.

I must admit i supported a start up venture who was in a way responsible for bringing something new and unheard in the Indian motorcycling chapter and with the success stories in and around me (all happy customers) that became a belief. But now things are turning out to be different and the underlying stories from all across the country are forcing me to relook at it from a different perspective. I would not like to comment more on it till the right time comes and along with data and facts which i can put forward for all the riders to look at and then see what is right according to them. But until then i would like to keep things to myself and avoid being quoted as someone's supporter or hater etc. something this thread doesnot need at this moment.

I have sent the RC cam and one stock cam for a few tests in order to find out the detail info and provide data on the lift, advance in timings of valve opening and closing and other comparos in an attempt to reveal the true reasons behind the irritating noise, happening inside the engine and then what would be the after effects of using such a hotter cam using state of the art machinery and workflow diagrams as a first step.. but till then please be patient guys!!

Next in line would be a compression test to confirm the approx compression ratio inside the engine.

Again as i have mentioned earlier: all the experiences that have been shared are based on what i have witnessed. So one is free to accept or reject the data and findings mentioned here. I don't want any blame game or flame wars to start on this thread which has so far been a productive one and has received healthy inputs from a lot of senior riders.

i do hope more people will join and make this thread better than what it is as of today.

Cheers,

Re: RC kits: Stock cam revertal, Racing CDI, Leo Vince & Functional TPS 23rd June, 20

Good to see that you have successfully got over the problems and enjoying the ride....
Your Experience must be an eye opener on the Engine Mods, and I am sure you have learned a lot from the personal experience....
Looking forward to your unbiased account of the whole sequence of events and the present status...
Wish you good Luck...

Re: RC kits: Stock cam revertal, Racing CDI, Leo Vince & Functional TPS 23rd June, 20

This thread is going to be an eye opener to all the newbies who are going to get there bike hot rodded>
Please keep updating about the RC Cam

Re: RC kits: Stock cam revertal, Racing CDI, Leo Vince & Functional TPS 23rd June, 20


Sir as we have discussed countless times on the thread and off, i am grateful for your guidance and all suggestions. Has really helped me make this journey an enriching and pleasurable one! I am now enjoying riding her even more.. now the money's worth is coming out.. But more on this after i finish the proposed 300 kms ride. I feel getting rid of the RC cam was the best decision i made!

My FZ-X is loving every moment of it. She is now sublime and so smooth which was something i was yearning for with the RC cam. May be on a track RC is a better bet but on streets keeping in mind refinement, low end grunt, power across rev range and overall riding pleasure, nothing beats the stock cam PERIOD!!

Cheers,

Re: RC kits: Stock cam revertal, Racing CDI, Leo Vince & Functional TPS 23rd June, 20

Thanks for your kind words...looking at the Cam Pic, I was taken aback by the marks on it....good that you removed and went for the stock cam..
Good Luck to you and your journey in learning...

Re: RC kits: Stock cam revertal, Racing CDI, Leo Vince & Functional TPS 23rd June, 20

ThIs thread has been of immense knowledge
its good always good to know about the advantages and disadvantages of what you are doing or might do in the future..
at present, due to financial limitations, i was just thinking of going for the FFE..
so i wanted to know what are the things that need to be changed or looked into for this mod.??
The full hot-roding is in my mind but apart for finance, i don't know any reliable mechanic all those which i have came across don't know much about the technical details and factors..

300 kms TD: Stock cam revertal, Racing CDI, Leo Vince & Functional TPS 26th June,2013

Hi All,

Yesterday, i finished testing my new set up on a 300 kms short ride along with a pillion to see what changes have taken place when compared to the earlier set up with RC cam. With the 15T front sprocket mod and now with the stock cam i was expecting slightly lazier acceleration and hesitation from the engine with respect to the pulling power i had witnessed on RC cam with stock sprocketing.

For this round of test my bike had the following config:

* 182cc Big Bore Kit with ported head
* stock camshaft
* Free Flow Simota stock replacement air filter
* Racing CDI with 8 switchable ignition maps
* 15 T front sprocket mod
* Leo Vince GP Corsa Carbon Full Exhaust system

The idea behind the 300 kms ride was to see the overall changes in terms of bike's behaviour now with a full fledged exhaust, CDI and the stock cam with stoich AFR tuning done with the carb. I had intentionally kept the DB killer on the Leo Vince exhaust on throughout the test in order to see how much power i was losing at low end, mid range and top end.

Thanks to previous inputs from riders from different places, i was already aware of the fact that compared to the stock short gearing the 15T will alter the acceleration timings, gearing, rpm required to achieve the speed and overall feel of the bike will change. For this particular test i had tried out 3 ignition maps on the CDI: Map no. 4, 5 & 6.

POST RIDE OBSERVATIONS:

* Stock Camshaft: with the stock cam, the overall vibrations and harmonics of the bike has become better. Thanks to the CDI, i was not witnessing any major power loss. Ofcourse compared the RC camshaft the power band is very linear with the stock cam. RC cam the power is very brute from 4000 rpm onwards. However, keeping in mind my touring requirements and streetability use, it was compromising on too many things especially with the harmonics, low end power delivery was horrible along with the recurring problems of engine shutting off, reverse cranks, engine vibes and the famous "Stitching noise" with the RC cam.

I am not sure why the RC cam bore so many scratch marks on the lobes when we dismantled it from my bike. Whether it is normal wear or whether it was somehow affecting the other parts: i guess it will become clear once i get those reports back. But overall usage wise i would not recommend using the RC cam for street riding. May be a milder cam would be preferred. But the race cam is an absolute no no if one has the same requirements as mine. Anyways, coming back to the report: i was not witnessing any drop in performance with the stock cam and the reduction in noise was a welcome change. Made the whole ride a pleasurable experience.

* 15T sprocket mod: Due to my muscle memory being attuned with the stock gearing, it was a tad difficult at first to gauge the powerband and the right rpms to shift gears in order to achieve maximum speed. But slowly i was able to grasp how wield the power adequately from the 15T set up. Unlike stock bike, the 15T set up required me to rev the engine slightly to a higher band in order to achieve better speed and acceleration. I am not sure if i am able to place my thoughts using correct words here but i hope you are getting what i am trying to express.. The major difference was observed as i started climbing up the ghats. One stock bike with the 14-40 sprocket config i was able to climb a lot of places @4th gear with the average speeds of 40-50 kmph on the speedo while doing uphill. on 15T, i was able to push most of the places @2nd or 3rd gear and at times 4th: but now the speed has increased to the band 65-70 kmph! Don't forget guys for this test i am on stock cam and with a programmed CDI unlike the earlier set up with stock CDI and TPS being locked at full that too with lean tuned carb. SO overall riding experience was really good especially on the ghats. The only thing i had to keep in mind was to downshift at times when climbing up in order to gather speed quickly. The engine likes to be in the powerband of 5000 rpm and above to give you that bump between gear changes with the 15T.

However, other riders may have experienced things differently. 5th gear is just an overdrive gear and that's it. So with the 15T one has to gather all the speed in the 1st 3 gears, then the 4th to hit 100+ kmph and then the 5th to keep the momentum going. With the pillion load, some light luggage and the config i had, i was able to achieve 115 kmph without crouching. on an average i was able to keep her in the speeds of 95-105 kmph without any major effort and the engine feeling slightly less stressed at higher speeds. Keeping touring and generic city rides in mind the 15T is a good combo to have with the BB kit. For riders just looking for brute acceleration stock sprocket set up is the recommended one from my end.

* FFE: Leo Vince Full exhaust with the DB killer on: it was no brainer that the DB killer will restrict the power output significantly. The same was observed on the highway. If one tries to attempt WOT, the bike would hesitate at 4-5k and at times till 6k and then she would accelerate like crazy all the way till 9000 rpm. But at times i was experiencing slight hesitation at 8000 rpms @4th gear the power would cut off. So i had to downshift and gather speed and then again upshift to a higher gear. Next few days, i shall do a few more test rides without the DB killer to see the difference in power output and the overall behaviour change of my bike. The good thing is the local cops don't even look at your bike with the DB killer on as the overall sound emissions are very much in control. The LV pipe only becomes loud post 6000 rpm with the DB killer on. I guess things will change when i remove the DB killer and roam around the streets. Let's see what Yoshi has to offer.

* CDI: There was definitely something different with my FZ-X post the installation of the CDI. i found with the pillion, DB killer on, 5th map was working out to be giving the best of both worlds. The acceleration was very linear and no engine lugging or knocking. When i tried the map no. 6, the acceleration became very slow and the bike felt like it was losing power. My guess is the 6th map on the CDi is advancing the ignition timings too much than required. 4th map the power was good however there were signs on knocking sometimes at 3rd or 4th gear at 6500 rpms+. All in all, it is a must upgrade for anyone going for hot roding. Makes a world of difference. I would personally recommend the switchable maps CDI model over the single map CDI. It allows you the freedom to see which map works best with your set up.

* FE: As always for the mileage hungry juntas, with the 122.5 main jet, 15T front sprocket mod and an average tacho hovering around 7000-8200 rpms, i was expecting the FE to go down significantly. However this time, my FZ-X was able to give me a healthy 38-39 kmpl which was commendable considering the fact that i am running a souped up bike. This definitely means the tank range for tourers will be a healthy 390-400 kms+ without hitting the reserve fuel even with all these mods.

Overall, i am very happy with the set up i have in place now. Works well for street usage and especially for the touring bunch! The engine temps were low throughout the journey obviously due to the constant downpour i had to face throughout my trip. She never broke down or sputtered out of breath nor showed any signs of tiredness throughout the trip so yes so far thanks to Motozone guys, the 300 kms ride yielded positive results. I reckon removing the DB killer, without pillion rider and other tit bits, i should have been able to achieve a higher top end. But more on this will come out as i continue to carry on with my tests with the set up.

The BB Kit has survived for around 2700+ kms now with two 300 kms trips keeping the engine at higher rev bands. Let's see how things unfold as i continue clocking miles on my ride. The piston slap and reverse cranking occured once today. Besides that she has not bothered me at all. I am happy to announce that the 60/55 watt halogen light mod yielded positive results, the overall light output has increased tremendously and after 8 hours of usage on FZ, i have not faced any problems with the battery dying nor the RR unit going kaput.

More reports coming up.. so stay tuned.

Well to be honest, i have so far tried out the Leo Vince @ RC gen 1 exhaust on my bike. RC without the DB killer definitely has an edge in terms of performance when compared to Leo Vince. But then Leo Vince outshines it with the build quality and sound control with using the DB killer.

One will have to get the carb rejetted when using a FFE. With my souped up ride i am currently running a 29mm CV carburettor with a functional TPS and programmed switchable maps CDI and 122.5 main jet, 17.5 pilot jet & needlejet both of them being stock ones which came along with the carburettor. And so far the spark plug readings are showing a stoich AFR.

My guess is you can try upjetting from stock 112.5 main jet to 115 main jet Mikuni/UCAL specific jets based on which year FZ/Fazer you are using and play with the needle positions in order to add a bit more fuel. I used the RC FFE without any jetting changes and the FE had shot upto 51 kmpl. Later when we opened my engine it was pretty clear that the engine was running very lean.

Cheers,

Re: 300 kms TD: Stock cam revertal, Racing CDI, Leo Vince & Functional TPS 26th June,

@ Shiv 18 , you have now a balanced tuning for both City and highway use of the bike....stick with present setup,since performance and AFR seems to be just correct ,which will give longer engine life..
Thanks for your RAW observations without coloring, and use of expletives......

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

[MENTION=32641]shv18[/MENTION]:- any particular reason you did not go for a 30mm venturi carb or bigger? the 29mm, is it the stock one from fz?

Sent from my GT-I9001 using xBhp Connect mobile app

Re: 300 kms TD: Stock cam revertal, Racing CDI, Leo Vince & Functional TPS 26th June,

great explanation of your experience there
sand keep us all posted about further changes in ride and exp..
finding a near perfect config which is suited for both street n touring is pretty hard.. lucky you..

that means apart from upjetting, i won't have to do much with the exhaust change.. now only i have to do is find a dealer for the same.. thanks..

Re: 300 kms TD: Stock cam revertal, Racing CDI, Leo Vince & Functional TPS 26th June,

Hehe,

the problem is the itch "to see what happens next if i try this" doesn't go away!! So the next test will be with Yoshimura. I will revert to stock config just to see what gains or losses have taken place since the revertal to stock cam and now with the CDI. And then see what the market has to offer. Under current circumstances with the Duke 390 being launched at such ridiculously cheap price by Bajaj, somehow my enthusiasm for investing further into hot roding is slowly fading away. As i know 6 months to a year from now, there will be enough 2nd hands lying around in the garages, with less than 3k kms on the ODO, good service history, probably at an outgoing price of 1.4 - 1.5 lakhs waiting to be plucked by an opportunistic buyer!

If Bajaj & KTM still retain the 2nd hand owner being eligible for warranty than they have a clear winner in the market and CBR and others can enjoy watching the tail light! At the moment all we have to do is to wait for the ownership reports to trickle down and see the overall build and parts quality reports. I hope the irritating electrical problems and chain noise like it was on Duke 200 has been ironed out on this one.


29mm CV was easily available just 5 mins away from my home. Parts from Bajaj are easily available so why bother scratching my head on anything else. As far as i understand for a 180cc a 29mm CV carburettor will suffice. As PSR Ji has explained many times, in terms of usage for a generic rider a CV carburettor is more forgiving and superior in terms of retaining and providing adequate fuelling to the bike than the others. A flat slide carburettor will give you insane power but by the time you are done sorting out the fuelling, you will end up losing all your hair on your head (like PSR Ji jokingly tells me always ). Depends on what are you looking for and what is your usage.

On a track a flat slide will make sense, if you know how to tune it as the power is absolutely brute. However, on street usage with an average but avid rider CV is a clear winner.

This time also i was riding at times at an altitude of roughly 2000-2500 ft and there was no power loss nor any signs of hiccups from my ride. You need to read about FZ specs first my friend. The stock bike is BS 26 carburettor. This one is BS 29 carburettor modified to accomodate the TPS sensor.

The upjetting depends on what altitude you are in. If you are living at a higher altitude then you may have to go for lower sized jets in order to reduce the fuelling as per the requirement at that particular height. The above mentioned jets are applicable at sea level.

For Leo Vince, you may try http://www.bachoomotors.com/

For Yoshimura, i think performance racing store gets you those pipes in India.


Cheers,

FE test update, 27th June, 2013

Hi all,

just for the heck of it i did an FE test of my FZ - X, unless my calculations have gone haywire, she is currently returning me a healthy 44 - 46 kmpl. This is with occasional speed bursts and revving hard for no reason. I will do some more tests to confirm if the FE nos. remain constant or go down. I did a plug chop test and the spark plug readings confirm stoich AFR.

A small video of the Leo Vince GP Corsa Carbon exhaust on my FZ with DB Killer on:



Apologies for the horrible video quality. This is just to give you an idea of how she sounds now. Beyond 6k rpm she just growls even with the DB killer on. Will try getting hold of a GoPro soon and shall do some videos and speed runs as well.

Next in line is the Yoshi FFE test, stock sprocketing revertal, Motozone guys have requested me to try out one more thing from their stable will report back the changes.. so stay tuned.

Cheers,