Re: RC kits 1600 kms Log report 24th May, 2013

First of all, Kudos to the way you have documented your work I wish I had the brains to do the same. And as far as your writing is concerned, its absolutely praise worthy.
I appologize for my inability to explain the way my TPS was hotwired by my mechanic. I severly lack the knowledge / technical base.. I will again give it a try to explain it with details. But to be very frank, the approach you are taking, seems to be far better than what we had done. Since we shifted to Round Slide, (Keihin CV to Mikuni VM28) there was no way of taking the path you chose Your's is definitely better, since everything is bound to work in synchro via 1 throttle body (as compared to 2 in my case).

btw, do I have the permission to re-use some of your images (like the tps image, and the throttle body) at my post to explain what my mechanic did exactly (with respective Photo Credits). as i said.. i didnt document any of my work, so.. Or I can just message you and try to explain.

Re: RC kits 1600 kms Log report 24th May, 2013

Thank you for a your kind words but believe me i am not even close to how abhimanyu31 writes. His explanation on facts and figures are million miles ahead!!
Yes for sure you may use the pics on your thread.. no issues with that as long as it serves the purpose for the greater good of the community. Knowledge sharing is always encouraged on xbhp..


Cheers,

RC kits 1763 kms Log report 30th May, 2013

Hi all,

as mentioned earlier below is the video to give you guys an idea of what fuelling issues i am facing with my bike:



If one notices the rpms refuse to come down to 1500-1800 after the engine has reached the peak optimum operating temperature. Earlier it would do so.. today after a long ride, when i put her on main stand and was recording the video, the rpms just wouldn't come below 2000. Initially i thought it was happening possibly because i may have kept the idling set at a higher notch. But later on i realised that was not the case. If the bike is in motion and i then shut the throttle and change gears to higher ones and then dip the clutch, the rpms would be stuck occasionally for a few seconds but then return to 1500 rpm and it would not fluctuate and remain very steady. Today at static position, it refused to do so. As mentioned earlier, my technician felt that the current pilot jet is supplying too much fuel than required so going for a smaller sized one should solve the problem.

I had a long chat with senior rider PSR Ji to see if he can help me out with troubleshooting this irritating problem and also locate some bigger main jets and smaller pilot jets. I would also like to mention riders Adarsh_Bk and Rylan who have been very enthusiastic and kind enough to go out of their way and try and locate some jet sizes in their respective places as dealing with the auto spares shop in Mumbai turned out to be a major nightmare!! Thanks a ton guys!!

PSR Ji also gave a comparo chart between Keihin and Mikuni based main jets to help me understand the difference of sizes and nos. For the benefit of the community, i would like to share it with you all:



If my observations are correct, the Mikuni jets manufactured in India and UCAL jets are interchangeable. PSR Ji was very kind and i should say super fast to source out 15 sized UCAL specific carburettor pilot jets for me.



Pic 1: UCAL 15 sized pilot jet. Yes i requested PSR Ji to buy the whole lot!!

He is also trying to help me locate the best possible main jets which can sort out the knocking issue when hitting the top end. At the moment, with the lean tuning, my bike flies past 100 kmph in a matter of seconds and continues to do so till 115 kmph but beyond that i am noticing heavy knocking at WOT.. which i guess is because of lean tuning or something to do with the TPS not doing its job properly and being locked at full. I shall report back about the changes i witness post switching over to 15 sized pilot jet. I will try and harass my poor technician to get started with the TPS lever mod soon once i get a go ahead from senior rider abhimanyu31.

If for any reason we are unable to source out 119, 120, 121, 122 jets then we will attempt drilling the smaller main jets into the required sizes and then see which one gives out the best fuelling for my bike. Please do bear in mind that all the rejetting and the fuelling attempts are being done at sea level on a bike with stock exhaust at the moment. The jets sizes and AFR tuning requirement may change as you climb up to higher altitude or go for a full fledged free flow exhaust!!

I have so far clocked around 1763 kms since the build. I am planning to do a small ride to Lonavla post the new rejetting and AFR changes and report back regarding how she performs. Currently refraining from doing so because of the aforementioned leaner AFR setting done by my technician.


I hope this is not an information overload for everyone?? Noobs please do share your concerns if you are not able to grasp some of the pointers which have been mentioned here and senior riders as always please feel free to comment and share your gyan on this thread.


till then.. stay tuned!!


Cheers,

Re: RC kits 1763 kms Log report 30th May, 2013


Ohh you funny man!!!

Re: RC kits 1763 kms Log report 30th May, 2013

AFAIK Ucal Fuel systems and Mikuni are the same. Since they are our customer. If I am not wrong earlier the company was called Ucal Mikuni fuel syetems.

Cheers

Mathews

Re: RC kits 1763 kms Log report 30th May, 2013

Haaaah!!

Thanks for joining in. the more the merrier!! Though Mikuni india has a lot of carbs from its line up manufactured by UCAL fuel systems, india: i am under the impression to cut costs they more less have used the same parts and jet sizes to provide carbs under their UCAL banner. But i really cannot verify it.

Regardless, PSR Ji got hold of a car based Mikuni 92.5 secondary jet & Suzuki main jets: drilled it to a size of 121/121.9 and has shipped it rightaway. PSR Ji, i cannot thank you enough!!



Pic 1. UCAL Mikuni & Suzuki main jets along with 1.2, 1.3 & 1.4 micro drill bits used to make the dia to 121/121.9

So now the experiments will begin with reducing the low end fuelling by using 15 sized pilot jet which if i am correct manages the bike's fuelling till 3000 rpm and ofcourse increasing the fuelling at the mid range and top end by using 121/121.9 sized main jet. We will first try and tune the carb to a richer AFR setting and see what is the overall response and then later try to achieve a stoich mix and see the feedback we get from my FZ-X. At the moment the low end response at lower revs are not something to speak about. The FZ-X now knocks at speeds on lower gears which never used to be the case with the stock kit. The TPS mod is still pending so let's see a lot of things to mess around with

I will also ship one of the extra jets to rider n-o-v-i-c-e so that he can also give an independent review from his end as now more or less we both have the same set up and in some form are facing fuelling issues with our respective bikes. I am still contemplating with the RC camshaft whether i should retain it or revert to stock cam as the vibrations, stitching noise and overall harmonics are not going well with long distance rides. Though Joel has recommended to remove the decomp unit and change the settings of the valve clearances to a tighter 0.06mm inlet and 0.08 mm exhaust, as per my discussions with other riders the overall noise though reduced in some cases but others haven't achieved anything significant by following this method. I am looking at a quieter set up as i have no intentions of breaking any world speed record but rather having a tuned set up for only one and one thing: Touring!!

I will see what gentlemen abhimanyu31 recommends then decide my course of action to be taken in this regard. BTW i was rummaging through the parts of my bike and was quite surprised to find out that most of the engine internals are made in Japan and not in India or Thailand. Mine is a late Sept 2010 FZ model. This includes the whole valve assembly, cam, cam bearings etc.



UPDATE:

I had an opportunity to finally speak with PSR Ji and share all the points & issues i could figure out so far related to my build. Thank you for giving so much of your time sir.. i believe at some point i got deviated from the original intended topic of conversation (i guess when it comes to bikes i think i have ADD with the subject itself!! )

I also have had long chats with abhimanyu31 who has been very patient, understanding and keen on trying to help me troubleshoot the fuelling issues with my ride irrespective of my constant nagging. Sorry mate!!

After interacting with both these gentlemen, we came to a conclusion that going for one step up with the pilot jet rather than reducing it to 15 from the current size of 17.5 would be the next logical thing to attempt. I did a spark plug reading and it was showing lean. Both senior riders felt that at the moment, with the proportion of increase in cubic capacity and free flow air filter the fuelling with the current up-jetting of the carb is not sufficient. Hence, the problem of rpms coming down slowly/ stuck at times which is more or less a clear indicator of lean tuning unlike what my technician had earlier deduced. So will now look at sourcing out 20 size pilot jet to first address the low end issue of rpms not coming down and then attempt a slightly richer tune. If i still get knocking at the top end then later will play around with the main jet to see if we can get rid of the knocking issue for good.

I am sure for most of the riders by now: this thread has either remained an interesting topic or a grim reminder of why not to opt for such mods.

With so many twist and tweaks i have been doing so far with my bike, i would like to say one thing out loud: For an average/a noob rider hot roding is definitely not the way to go. I would like to quote PSR JIs simple and elegant one liner: " there is no replacement for displacement!!"

RC kit is "plug and play" indeed installation wise. But besides that, when it comes to tuning the carb and the AFR, it is really a time consuming process and frustrating at times. Takes me back to the old 2 stroke days when tuning flat slide carbs was really an art to master. PSR Ji has shared his wealth of experience with two strokes which was something that got me nostalgic about the golden days of RX 100,135 and the legendary RD350.

Anyways, coming back to the point: unless you are an individual who is keen on going through such an elaborate process to get the ultimate high out of hot roding and a good mechanic who would devote time to get things right, i would say not to opt for such kits. Save the money and go for bigger CCs!

For crazy guys like me: it has been an amazing experience and a learning curve so far and i am loving each and every moment of it! If not for hot roding, i don't think i would have ever bothered with going ahead to the extent of opening up the engine and learning the complexities involved with the functioning of it which most of generic and noob consumers just take it for granted.

More to come soon as i continue to tinker with my FZ-X...

Cheers,

Re: RC kits 1763 kms Log report 30th May, 2013

Looks like you have managed to source out some heavy artillery for the final carburetor assault, eh.

I got time yesterday to tinker again with the 17.5 size pilot jet and what I observed was like follows.

I did normal tuning of the carb and set out for a small ride. The situation was the same as earlier. The RPM's were coming down slowly only below the
3K-2.5K mark.
Above 3K rpm the revs come down a tad more faster but nowhere as fast as the stock bike.

So I came back and tuned the carb again albeit this time on the richer side. I thought logically if the RPM's aren't coming down due to a lean tuning this ought
to fix something of that issue. So I went out for anothe ride.
This time I saw that the RPM would come down more slowly than in the previous tune of the carb.
The result was contradictory. I richen the tune and now the RPM come down even more slowly than before.

So here I think the pilot is not the only culprit but also the jet needle and main jet tunig needs to be sorted out.
Though some pointers from senior riders like abhimanyu31, psr sir would help us a little, here.

I managed to loan out a 15 size pilot jet for one day and put it in the carb and rode the bike today again.
With the pilot 15 size jet the initial torque was clearly reduced and the RPM issue was persistent.

I couldn't do extensive riding coz it was from another running bike and had to be returned in a few hours.
But in what few time i did have it, seems to be under fuelling the engine.

To add to the worldly wise lines of shv18 that if you are an average bike user or dont bother with the intricacies of you bike or would not like to
get your hands dirty, please refrain from hot roding or modding your bikes.
For you people that would be a lot of headache and unncessary waste of time from your point of view.

Even if your parts are plug and play doen't mean that your job is over. Its only the beginning of the journey which has been
made easy for you. You would still need to work out a lot of things before the successful completion of your mod.

First, you should have a mechanic who really knows what he's doing or you are gonna regret your decision at the very first crank of your
modded bike, that is, if it at all cranks to life.

Second, you should have an experienced person who has seen a lot of this stuuf or has personally done it.
This is absloutely necessary coz practically you would encounter some or the other issue, big or small.
In those situations their experience helps a lot and may save your effort going to the garbage bin.

Third, it goes without saying that you sould be ready with the moolah for the succes or failure of the hot roding.
Both way you will need to invest a good amount of money. If you want a good result it would definitely not
come cheap. You can't expect the modification to be completed on a shoe-string budget.
Or whine and cry halfway through the business that it is exceeding your limits of imagination.

Fourth, and the most important thing needed is patience. You need to give ample amount of time to the build.
The mechanic or modder would only do their respective jobs.
You shall give time throughout the entire process of hot roding, right from its inception in your mind,
to preparing the raw materials and fiting them, then tuning them and finally enjoying them after the succesful implementation.

Things always don't go as planned. So you need to be ready for some small setbacks and be ready to devote time
and overcome them with proper solutions. So patience is indeed your best friend during these times.
Even hardcore modders meet with hurdles but they patiently overcome them to achieve what they want.

Without patience all the above 3 points are meaningless.
Trust me i know. I have been running on patience since the day I started this thread.
And now after help from fellow riders I am near to what I intended from this mod.

Hot roding is an art and even if you personally didnt make any parts, your bike is unique from others.
Any art to be successfully completed, needs time. So be wise and lunge into it only after being fully prepared for the journey ahead.


cheers...


Slight OT:
shv18 and Mathews.

Ucal is an Indian company. It had a JV with Mikuni to manufature its round slide carbs early on and so the carbs would carry the name Ucal-Mikuni.

Later on Ucal bought the licenc to manufature these carbs and then the JV with Mikuni ended around 2008-09.

So now only the name Ucal appears on the carb. But AFAIK they are restricted to a small number of round slide and old technology carbs.

These carbs are not usually found around the world now. Cant complain. The carbs do their job well.

cheers...

RC kits 1889 kms Log report 4th June, 2013

Hi all ,

I finally managed to locate and convince one of the TVS spares shop in Grant Road, Mumbai to place an order for the 20 sized pilot jet for the tuning experiment as mentioned earlier. These A$$wipes were so difficult to deal with that i was forced to make an advance payment for a minimum of 6 pieces of the same pilot jet in order to get a speedy delivery.

Anyways, as of now i have an excess arsenal of main jets & pilot jets in sizes from:

Main Jet: 115, 117.5, 121/121.9 & 125
Pilot Jet: 15, 17.5 & 20

So any of the silent readers who are in need to such jets or for those RC FZ hot roders who are experiencing problems with AFR tuning and fuelling issues but are not able to get hold of required jets in their respective places may connect with me and i can ship them a set of these jets anywhere across India. (One just has to pay for the actual MRP+shipping cost which is peanuts and help me get rid of excess stock).

3 sets are already reserved for me , n-o-v-i-c-e and another rider from Kolkata for whom i have also ordered a BS29 Pulsar 180 carburettor. If one needs any additional jets please feel free to connect with me and i shall shamelessly harass PSR Ji and other good folks from xbhp to source it out for you!!

Please note that all the jets are compatible with UCAL carbs. I am not sure though but they may be interchangeable with Mikuni carbs as well as the threads are more or less similar to the latter.

It has been an extremely fast and fun journey for me so far unlike me fellow rider n-o-v-i-c-e who had to deal with an unfortunate setback of health issues and lack of technical support thanks to crappy attitude and zero knowledge about carb tuning amongst the local mechanics he came across in Pune. Ofcourse it wouldn't be possible without the collective information sharing on this thread between riders and senior riders. I would personally like to thank each and every rider who has been a part of this amazing hot roding journey, both viewers and participating members, making things easier for me atleast to troubleshoot and take corrective measures at the earliest.

So now 1 more week of waiting till the pilot jets arrive and then we shall begin experimenting with the fuelling of the carb using 20 sized pilot jet. I hope that this will reduce the overall vibrations in my bike which may have been caused by lean tuning.

So far my ride has covered 1889 kms and the rpm issue has worsened with a slight dip in the ambient temp with the pre monsoon showers knocking at the doorstep of Mumbai. So as mentioned earlier, i am limiting my rides even further in order to avoid any chances of creating an unwanted environment which may lead to engine failure.

But more on this later..


Cheers,

Re: RC kits 1889 kms Log report 4th June, 2013




Shv18 guy was of great help, i actually had no idea whatsoever about what to expect when Kolkata bajaj showroom guys quoted me waiting period of 27 days waiting alongwith half payment in advance for the ug 4 carb :P Thanks again Shv18. Excited and anxious to get the carb along with the jets soon.

Re: RC kits 1889 kms Log report 4th June, 2013

[MENTION=32641]shv18[/MENTION] You have repeatedly said that you want a reliable touring setup. Therefore I ask this question.

If you are having so much trouble getting the correct jet sizes for your ride when you are in Bombay, what do you hope to do when you are on the road? Assuming you do a tour from Bombay to Leh, how in the world are you gonna address your fuelling issues with ever changing altitudes and air pressure?

Wouldn't a stock bike be better wrt touring, considering the amount of change one has to face. On the other hand for a city rider, it would be no problem as the conditions will not change much over the year.

Re: RC kits 1889 kms Log report 4th June, 2013

Hi mate,

let me try and answer your query in two parts

Getting hold of Jets:

The problem is actually not with the non availability of the jets but rather reluctance from the sellers to assist you in any way in identifying the necessary jets to do the deed. As per my experience the only thing these guys understand are part numbers and volume of purchase you want to do from them. They are not interested if you want to let's say buy just one jet or you don't have the specific model no. of the bike part which you want to buy. This is where help from outside Maharashtra from senior riders and other enthusiastic riders come into play. I will later try and log the details of the part nos. so that anyone else who is planning to take this route and wants help can either contact me or else can attempt sourcing out the parts himself by giving the correct names and nos.

Touring & High altitudes:

One of the main reasons i opted for the CV carburettor over a semi flat or D slide type carbs. Unlike the latter ones, CV carburettors are very forgiving in nature thus, when one is going for a long distance trip with variable altitude, as per my experience the CV carbs are able to compensate some amount of changes with the AFR. usually the symptoms of power loss will start showing up above 7000 ft. If that is the case with say Leh then the rule of thumb is to go for a lower size jets, specifically pilot and main jets. Now i reckon the current jet set up which is giving me trouble here will work perfectly at those altitudes as with the reduction of density of air the fuelling also needs to be reduced. If you have already checked out my earlier post, i have more or less have a stockpile of different jets with me to mess around with if and when i am able to make it to such altitude (leh is still a far fetched dream!! ) let's say all this fails then the next well known technique is to jam the jets with wires which reduces the fuel flow into the engine thus doing the needful to keep things in check which can be taken care of by local mechanics over there.

Stock carb'd bikes, especially FZ in stock form is completely useless to deal with high altitudes as with a puny 14 bhp at the crank and 9-11 bhp at the wheel with transmission losses, the overall power output goes down further as one approaches higher altitude. With the current set up and higher HPs at my disposal, i reckon the power loss won't be so much that i would have to go crazy struggling with the fuelling. Though till i do make it to such an altitude and confirm my claims, it is all just plain theory. If you ask on practicality terms: with touring in mind, it makes more sense to go for bigger CCs with a liquid cooled engine and ECU controlling all the parameters as the ECU will automatically make changes with fuelling and advance or retard the ignition timing based on the feedback it gets from the sensors about temperature, barometric pressure, fuel quality etc.

However in my case, the objective was to see how much can we physically and technically push my bike to generate power, torque without losing much on reliability! I am just halfway through the process so it is still early to beat drums about the reliability of these kits. Right now the main objective is to get the fuelling right and then learn the parameters under which the performance output is at its best from these kits. One important thing i have learnt after installing these kits and interacting with other hot roders is that high compression engines absolutely hate lean AFR and will give you trouble if not kept in check. So let's see.. right now waiting for the pilot jets.

Cheers,

Re: RC kits 1889 kms Log report 4th June, 2013

So essentially, until you don't tour long distances, there is no guarantee that you will not be waking up every morning on the way to Leh to mess around with your jets and wires and rocketships. While I would be catching a couple of hours of extra sleep on my stock P220

Anyways the reason I brought this up was because I am interested in the practicality of such setups from a touring perspective.

Re: RC kits 1889 kms Log report 4th June, 2013

Well right now i am restraining myself from doing any such long distance runs till the fuelling is sorted out. So till the time i commence with such a feat i would like to reserve my opinion about these kits and the affects of fuelling changes. Though when i did the first endurance test of 312 kms i did take my bike to an altitude of 2000- 2500 ft and there was no power loss. Hopefully when the fuelling is sorted out, i intend to take her to higher altitudes. However, as mentioned earlier the problems of fuelling going lean and irritating tune ups will crop up only when you cross 7000 ft and above. Secondly, the first step you take is to make the AFR lean by playing around with the AFR screw. After that lean tuning doesn't help then going for lower sized jets is the next option or else jamming the carb with copper wires(Tried and tested by other tourers) would be the procedure you will have to opt for regardless of whether it is in stock form or souped up one.

Practicality wise: until i cover certain no. or kms with these kits and can confirm about the power, reliability and benefits one gets over stock, it won't be wise on my part to put out bold claims. Though with 1189 kms (read 1910 kms now) under my belt with the new set up, i can confirm one thing: power wise is very evident even with the fuelling still not sorted out. I can cruise all day at 90-100 kmph on my FZ-x with applying just 1/4th or 2/ths throttle without sweating one bit and even with the improper fuelling, my ride can take on your 220 till 80-90 kmph which is something impossible with the stock bike. other 150s and 180s will always be shocked and irritated when they see a bike which cannot be distinguished from the stock version beats their pants off every time!!

Anyways, let's see i am yet to log long miles on my kit..


Cheers,

Re: RC kits 1889 kms Log report 4th June, 2013

If I may offer my perspective as a avid "Rev Head"
The problems Shiv is facing is a relatively "simple" one, Depending on accessibility to a "Tuner"

In Other countries for example Australia, there are numerous Tuners, Some with bad reputations such as one supposed Nissan Specialist tuner using a cold chisel on a Nissan's Crank Angle Sensor to adjust timing with the unofficial motto of "Ping is Power" where Ping is slang for detonation, To the best (Who command and get paid a lot for their time and effort)
This would have all been sorted out before the customer taking delivery of the vehicle. Now I understand that you are in India (and me in Vietnam) there is a distinct lack of experienced tuners, precision motor builders, machinists and technical personnel for our hobbies. I am very lucky that I have a fantastic mechanic/tuner (In my opinion of course, Our other VN member disagrees with me) and only had to change the jetting a couple times to get it right. Engine was adjusted for tappets and that was it. Nothing else touched on it.

Had there been a reputable Tuner available then Shiv would never be facing these issues.
Now that Shiv has been through the learning curve (and hopefully remembers the lessons learnt) He is in a fantastic position to offer advice about the situation to others who may want to go down the same road as he has. This is the double edge sword of modifying vehicles or "Hot Rodding" as you call it. The bad side is the problems Shiv faced, The good side is the lessons and experiences learnt in how to overcome these obstacles.

Re: RC kits 1889 kms Log report 4th June, 2013

Well luckily i have supportive guys like you and others regardless of the distance who have helped me get to this point without scratching my head too much! The only issue has been sourcing out the jets which has delayed the programme more than i had anticipated. i got hold of alternative ways to procure jets thanks to riders like PSR Ji and other gentlemen.

If i may, i would say i have more or less got 60% of the tuning right as the mid range of the current set up is really strong. Now all the efforts are being directed towards getting the low end and the top end sorted out. Yes i do wish we had access to good tuners here in India. Here you have good technicians and good mechanics but no good tuners who have the sense and the understanding of making things right..

So we make do with what we have..


Cheers Mate..