Re: Beginners Questionnaire!

Hello everyone...I am a newbie to xbhp but not to the worl of Biking and its Performance Enhancements... I have been usinf the RC kit for a solid 7000 Kms and all I can say is that its a Bullet-Proof reliable engine. By the way, the list of modifications are as follows ;

1) Big Bore Kit from RC (180 cc)
2) High Lift Racing Cams from RC
3) Head-work done by RC
4) Free Flow Exhaust from RC
5) Race CDI from RC
6) Stiffer Clutch springs from RC
7) 33mm D-slide CV Race Carb from RC, sourced from Mikuni
8) Had Simota Panel Air-Filter, switched over to conical now

To handle all the power, installed Rear Disc set-up..

Thanks
Team Torque....

Re: Beginners Questionnaire!

I am keeping my end of promise to all my fellow riders that as much as possible the report will be in detail. rest i leave to the readers to decide.

I would recommend that if you are planning to retain the RC camshaft then get the inner camshaft bearing and the camshaft bearing replaced along with replacing the valve assembly. Also install the decomp unit if you had removed it earlier. Makes a world of difference with the engine coming to life without any problem.

May be something wrong with your connection or else i have no clue.

Hey Adarsh, at this stage it is too early for me to comment on it as i was more busy concentrating on keeping the rpms under 4k. Believe me after 26k+ kms going through run-in process all over again is a pain in the a$$!! I think i am concentrating more on keeping her under the prescribed limit then actually trying to get the feel of the change in her characteristics. Anyways at this stage i was not able to differentiate much in terms of power output as i am still not sure the effects of jetting and tuning yet. There is ample amount of power under 3k that's all i can say for the moment.

It was indeed a learning experience for me. After ages i have had a 4 stroke engine opened up in front of me.. last hot roding was done with 2 strokes many eons ago !! I guess post 200 kms of completing the run-in i would be in a better position to comment regarding the power and feel.. Today with the current heat wave going on in Mumbai, i was completely drained out. i would sincerely like to thank abhimanyu31 again and again for coming forward to help me oversee the operation.


RUN-IN UPDATE:I just couldn't resist the temptation of finishing her run-in asap. So decided to do a post mid-night run-in riding. Also the fact the ambient temperature at this time is at around 28'C, i felt it will also help in engine running slightly cooler. Anyways, cranked the engine applying slight throttle, she started in a single crank. Then i left her idling for around 4 mins to ensure that the engine oil is sprayed across all the internals and the operating temperature reaches to its optimum level.

Once the engine had properly warmed up, i then started riding her slowly and keeping her within the 4k rpm limit.. I rode her for around 45-50 mins till the trip mtr showed additional 20 kms and then i switched her off. Took a late night chai break at Mumbai Central and then let her cool off for 15-20 mins. After that started her again and this time i rode her nonstop to marine drive which is about another addition of 15 kms. Switched her off again for 10 - 15 mins. Incidently i had just taken a U- turn from the Churchgate signal, Mumbai and stopped for her to cool down. In a few minutes, one honda city car at a speed of about 40-50 kms suddenly swirved towards right and went onto the divider of the Churchgate signal. I was quite shaken by the fact that i was barely 200 mtrs from where the accident took place. Quickly went to check the passengers and the driver, luckily all of them were ok. Then as it always happens in india, a hoard of people started forming a circle around the car, so i decided to leave. By that time a police patrol vehicle had stopped right next to the accident site and then they started clearing off the crowd.

I decided to call it quits and head back home. By the time i hit Haji Ali signal the trip meter was showing 50 kms so i decided to very gently take the throttle to 6,000 rpm and then leave the accelerator just to see what difference does the BB kit makes.

The power is there no doubt and with the RC cam the nos. on the speedo start climbing really fast. But with the stock carburetor still not been tuned properly and jetted as required, the jerky fueling was pretty evident and also having such low kms on the BB kit, especially with super tight tolerances: i chickened out and decided it was wise not do anything stupid since i had just emptied a quite a lot of greens a few hours back and i have absolutely no intention of blowing up my engine.. So kept her back to the limit of 3-4k rpm. By the time i reached home the trip meter had clocked 62.3 kms.

Yes by now most of you have figured that i am crazy!! Till i finish the first 200 kms, i will keep her under 4k rpm. After that i will give gentle burst of speed by slowly increasing the throttle only for a brief moment and then let go of it. Throughout this first 62.3 kms of initial run-in, i ensured that the throttle was constantly modulated and not kept at a steady rpm. The engine was always given a break to cool down. By the time i reached home, the engine was very hot, so immediately turned off the ignition and then checked the engine block for any leakages. She was fine. Next attempt to finish of 100 kms on the trip meter.


Cheers,

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

That is a very good break in you are following there mate
And it's definitely a myth that, engines have to be "broken in" before using synthetic oil.


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Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

Point 1. People don't say that the engine has to be broke in before using fs oil.
What they say is that during run in, it is advisable to change your oil at very frequent intervals. Fs oil lasts far far longer than this interval and that it is a waste of going in for fs during run-in. While the mineral oil can run really well for this short interval and fs is no point..
But for an engine like this, with such high tolerance, maybe the mineral oil wouldn't last. As for stock set up, synthetic oil is pointless during run in. If you can afford changing the fs oil for 500 and 1k kms, I would prefer to change the mineral oil every 200-300kms instead. Both behind an over kill..

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

^^^ Maybe, maybe not. If you look up this forum, there are people who swear by it.
My 2 cents


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Re: And the FZ - X is born

Thanks Shv18

Hope you keep the updates coming and not disappear like many other threads on Joel modding!!!

Waiting for the information packed updates from Abhimanyu31.

All the best!

Re: And the FZ - X is born

Nice to - finally! - see it done! You have spoken so much about this "transplant" that I am sure you were really sad of having to postpone it so many times.

Bur, now, I shall be mean with you: your bike was FILTH!!!
It is revolting to see such a work done without having, first cleaned the bloody bike! That is the very elementary rule before opening an engine: work CLEAN. You have done a lot of "blabbering" about doing things right.....and you do them WRONG from the very start!

So, to all: giving the bike a good wash - and do not hesitate to use pressure cleaners (moderate pressure, and avoid the various rubber parts that could be damaged) - will allow you to work on your engine in clean condition. After that, when taking off the tank, just do some more hand cleaning of the parts that could not have been reached by the pressure cleaner, like frame (right above the engine). That is rule number one.

All the rest was fine, it seems.

About valve clearance: you will have noticed how difficult it is to insert the thickness gauges between the rocker and the valve stem, and to get a good "feeling" of how tight of loose it is. It needs the bend the gauges, and really work very carefully on adjusting the tappets, and not loose the adjustment when tightening the lock nut. This is where you were right in keeping a more conservative play, specially since, after valve grinding, there will be a - very small but existing - mating of the valve to the seat, and the clearance between stem and rocker will diminish. One has to know that a valve that does not close perfectly because the play has gone down to zero, will burn very quickly! So: more is better in this instance.

I am however surprised, and happy for you, that you did not notice excessive and very unpleasant noise of the distribution coming from the RC camshaft shape (due to, maybe, not that perfect machining although looking very nice...?).

Marking on the piston (in and out valve recesses): It is difficult to be affirmative just looking at the picture, but this marking seems right to me: the big valve recess is aft, where the intake valve is, and the smaller one forward, for the smaller exhaust valve. Why did both your mechanic and Abimanyu 31 think it was wrong????

Oil: the 15/50 is definitely better than the 10/40, unless living in the Himalayas!

Talking now about using FS oil or mineral for running in: one can use FS for running in, absolutely, but I would not. One reason is that I do a first change after just 20km, in order to get rid - although working clean (...!) - of dust particles that might have gone in, and this as soon as possible, but also of some metal particles that appear very early during the first hour of a new engine life. Not that I care much about the small difference in price compared to the total of the other expenses, but throwing away more costly FS oil after half an hour does not make much sense to me. Second oil change is at 100km: same thing. By that time, the bike will have eased up a lot, and will have done that - theoretically I reckon - a little faster than if FS oil had been used, due to the difficulty to break the oil film with these high performance oils. Then: it is one's choice.

One thing very important, however, is NOT to pamper the engine too much during this running in period. I do not mean revving high - which is a killer! - nor exerting too much pressure on not yet mated and polished surfaces for any real length of time, like by going uphill for some time with a pillion of heavy weights, but not hesitate either to go W.O.T. (wide open throttle) for some seconds, and repeatedly. This will put a good pressure behind the rings, and avoid the top dangerous glazing of the cylinder that a too cool, without ring pressure, excessive pampering may cause. Glazing cannot be "repaired" but by re-doing the cylinder honing, and if kept such will never allow a good gas tightness of the piston rings onto the cylinder, giving loss of performance, blackening the oil. and finally reducing the engine life.

Re: And the FZ - X is born


Shv ji is a content writer in a leading media company and ofcourse with homework done all from two years, so his review would be the best ofcourse but just don't throw off others. Those who have disappeared have got tired and frustrated with unfortunate things happened to them but I advice everyone to look into all threads and gain maximum knowledge before modding their bikes.


with the support Shiv has right from good mechanics to advisors, I think he can't go wrong anywhere.

Congrats Shv for your long awaiting modd


Happy for you

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

Of course the CDI has one map only, and does not give you a choice of various mapping like some aftermarket ones often do. but that does not mean that the TPS is of no use or significance!!! Can anyone think, in his right mind, that Yamaha would have put a TPS sensor ans sent this information to the CDI for no reason??????
What then is this "activate/ deactivate" nonsense???? Activate/ deactivate what???

Is Joel, there again, finding nonsense excuses for his inability to provide his customers with a suitable carburetor?

The TPS information to the CDI makes it change the ignition timing. Nothing to do with "multiple" mapping. Then, specially with a higher compression engine, more prone to knocking with low octane fuel than a lower compression one, that is where the information to the CDI does matter and I have personally experienced that during the early days of my engine "hot rodding", where the engine had been re-assembled by the mech. while I had only asked him to close it. Since it was ready to run (not really ready!) , I gave it a try, with a carb. that had no TPS sensor. The compression, with a stock head (see my earlier comments about the compression chamber capacity with larger piston) was extremely high, and the engine awfully knocking. The carburetor was then modified to have the TPS sensor connected, and the knocking nearly disappeared.

Re: And the FZ - X is born

I had no intention of 'throwing off others'! A lot of threads started with a bang and ended with a whimper. When things started going wrong, the updates stopped. I hope that the updates will be regular irrespective of the 'fantastic' or 'rubbish' outcome of the mods.

@ Lucky Luke Me too wondered about the 'dakar returned' engine!!

Re: And the FZ - X is born

I intend to. However, posts will only be updated as i clock more kms and with the current work schedule it really becomes unpredictable! anyways i am a blabbering idiot so posts will keep on coming that is one thing you won't be short of my friend! :P


I kept my mouth shut throughout this operation and just observed and tried to learn everything i could from the whole deed. Regarding the cleanliness of the bike.. though yes i agree that it should have been cleaned and kept spik and span however with an all together new cylinder, engine head and almost all of the set up done away from the "filthy" block i don't think it was too much of a concern at this stage.

I decided not to intervene and let the two gentlemen, one who knew his work and one who has enough experience to start his own hot roding company, do their work. I was more concerned about the other annoying thing the stupid BS 29 carb!! Believe me it was such a let down and pissing off!! anyways for the time being let me see if i can get the tuning right from the BS 26 carb.

Thanks but i am not what you think i am .. a mystery man... and lets keep it that way shall we!! Regardless i have done an extensive write up to provide what i had promised at the very beginning of this thread.. a sort of baseline for a lot of noob riders should they ever decide to go for such act of hot roding. One thing that i learnt from this rebuild is unless you have a good mechanic and not a local well known mechanic, don't go for such mods!! Local mechanics are always out to fleece you. They will always show you more problems then solutions even when you don't have any on your bike... And if the guy doesnot know how to install even a stock block then you've had it!

my technician has years of experience and has literally worked on all kinds of Yamahas right from two strokes to 4strokes to I4s. With so many engine rebuilds under his belt, i was certain that he is the ONE for this job!! besides i had eagle eye abhimanyu31 who constantly kept watch on the overall operation.

I haven't witnessed any knocking whatsoever since the last 62 kms of run-in though a lot of jerks when i tried to ease in the throttle. I guess the octane rating of fuel in a metro like Mumbai is in a better state just like in Blore! Besides that as i have said earlier, i am not convinced with Joel's explanation.. something doesn't feel right about not having an alternative to the TPS..

Well as i have promised.. i will post whatever i experience and whatever happens to my bike after this... this is an uncharted territory for my bike but not an unplanned one !! Every failure has a reason behind it which a lot of Noob riders choose to ignore.. Have already heard about two RC 180cc kit failures on two R15s with barely covering 1500 kms which were built at the technician's workshop. Now most of the riders would be put of by this information.. However, further poking and prodding around revealed that these two gentlemen were into racing and me and abhimanyu31 reckoned that these were put onto high rev racing fun even without following proper procedure run-in. The technician also confirmed the same thing that the engines revealed improper run-in..

I believe it is a must to inspect parts and double check the usage fatigue of moving consumables in the engine... a lot of riders in order to save money ignore this and then compromise on this when going for such a build.. when the kit fails they start blaming the kit... Though agreed that not all kits are dipped and bathed in gold and essence of purity.. however, from a rider's end if one does the build with correct procedure and with right technician the overall chances of things going bad becomes very less say the reliability factor increases from a mere 30% - 90%.

Why not 100%?? well let's agree to one thing the engine and the bike has been built by a manufacturer.. they have done extensive tests right from jetting to the design.. they know their product better. What a hot roder has done is to play around with the engine by putting an add on kit.. a good tuner will design and make kits which will be within the tolerance limits of the parts inside the engine. Say a crankshaft though designed for 153cc FZ engine has been tested to tolerate stress two- three times of what this puny engine will throw at it.

What a good power up kits do is be at the very edge or close to that tolerance limit.. I feel ideally with such kits even the other parts should be replaced with higher strengthened parts to counter the effects of add on pressure.. but lets face it, this is India! hot roding has just begun taking baby steps.. there are no such parts manufacturers.. so what do we do? we make do with what we have!

So (this is what i feel, don't throw bows, arrows and missiles at me folks!!) to sum it up yes an hot rodded engine, one cannot guarentee that it will be as reliable as stock engine.. however having said that, one can make it close to reliable and long lasting as stock engines if:

a) one is willing to spend quite a lot of greens on fresh new parts to give the engine mate with the add on pressure and working from these performance kits and

b) Follow the run-in, right maintenance, right engine oil and correct tuning .

After seeing abhimanyu31's insane R15 with over 15,000 kms and Joelkraju's insane Pulsar 230 with over 16,000 kms on the clock with their respective builds and others going over 20, 000 kms i can safely make this statement (i guess!! )


Cheers,

Re: And the FZ - X is born

shv18 my man, finally you found nirvana. Congratulations. The build is complete and all those agonizing days waiting for this day are over at last.

You really really dont know how happy I am to see your build complete. Although we talked on the phone my presence here was overdue and
I apologize for being late to the party. But you know the reason.

Nice to know and frankly a little surprised that the cam noise on your kit is lower than others. Of course you would need another BB kitted bike
to ascertain the actual noise level. But still it seems less according to your description.

It was unfortunate that you got shipped a defective piece and lets give the benefit of doubt to Joel until
he replies to you and offers any real assistance ASAP.

Coming back to stock carburetor you would be wise not to extend its use beyond the intended run-in period of 200km and below 400k rpm.
Change it to a BS29 asap. I will also tell you the reason behind this suggestion.
Even with rejetting the BS26 carb with the pilot jet 17.5 and main jet 115 the engine runs super lean under all conditions.
The BS26 just does not supply the right amount of fuel required for THIS 182cc block alongwith the ported head, i.e, a deadly fuel hungry combo.

This I am telling you from personal experience. Me too used the BS26 with the exact specs and tuned it a hell lot.
But the bike felt to be dragging at high rpm's but I didn't bother to notice coz the bike was already generating more power than stock.
The real difference was felt when I installed the BS29 carb anyway. The bike just felt so much relaxed and less stressed.

That is when I knew for sure the BS296 was required because earlier I just did not experience this tune of engine.
If i hadn't put on the BS29 I would still be happy with the BS26 as it was already better than stock.
Okay now, enough lecture about the carb. I think i made my point clear here.

After talking to abhimanyu31 and according to his suggestion I am soon going to get the baseline tune of the BS29 with the stock jetting.
Then I shall post the findings and then will consult him again about how to proceed with the tune forward.

So that's it for now folks. The carburetor tuning is still going on and shall post relevant stuff as and when it happens.
And happen it will.

cheers...

Re: And the FZ - X is born

Personally, I hate working on a dirty bike. Time and again tuning experts have impressed upon me that a engine built in a clean environment is always a superior engine. In this case, by the time I got to the workshop they had already dismantled the head and cylinder. I saw no point in mentioning that the bike should have been washed properly bike before starting the work. Another thing that I personally prefer is to dismount the engine and then work on it. I have found that its much easier to work and the quality of work is also much better. But what can I say, every individual has his own style of working. Right or wrong as may be.

Now coming to the FS oil part. Quite simply, its an insurance. What is Rs. 1000/- FS oil compared to a seized engine with Rs.12,000 to 15,000 invested in it going down the drain. If one is careful in the running in process any multi grade oil will do. No two ways about that. However, with summer setting in out here, heat compounded with stop and go traffic, it was thought best to use FS oil for its ester content. Also as mentioned, the tolerances are quite tight, and therefore it's building up heat really quickly. To compound the problem, we have not sorted out the fuelling. If it is too rich or too lean, (pardon the pun) it will only fuel to the fire by creating more heat. The fact that this gentleman can not follow instructions to the letter was another reason for doing so.

There are quite few inconsistencies in Shv18's account that are attributed to me. What can I say, he is a quick draw and likes shooting off his hip.

Will take out time and post my views.

Re: And the FZ - X is born

Well my friend thanks for listening to my agonising cribbing all these months!! Anyways, yes i will eventually shift to a BS 29 carb as i am pretty sure that with the stock carb, it will be a big pain tuning it. Regardless, we already have more or less the info from other hot roders to start the baseline tuning on it.

Joel was prompt in responding to my mail, he apologised for the blunder and was kind enough to point me to the right direction so I am greatful to him in this regard . I shall place an order of BS 29 carburetor soon from Bajaj Spares shop. As far as all helpful riders have shared the info: the BS29 carburetor from Pulsar 180 UG 3 model is a perfect fit for this operation and has 117.5 main jet, 17.5 Pilot Jet and the Needle jet required to do the base map. Although, it doesnot have a Throttle Position Sensor or TPS which is kinda disappointment but regardless that's a start for me . The needle positions are adjustable so we can play around with the fuelling for the same.

I have also confirmed that a certain version of Bajaj Discover model has the jet kit which contains 120 as a mainjet. So if the reports from rider Jonahmano are correct, i will then have 115, 117.5 and then 120 mainjet to play with and see which one works best with the set up.


Cheers,

Cheers,

Re: And the FZ - X is born

Sir,

Right or wrong whatever places you felt that I have not explained the things properly or understood properly as mentioned at the beginning of my post, please feel free to correct me and criticize or give a right direction to the whole discussion.

In this regard I would be more than happy to be corrected so that like Lukyluke says wrong information is not passed around.


Update: Owing to work pressure, i will have to delay the run-in by a few days. Will keep you guys posted.

Thanks & Cheers,