Re: Yoshimura FFE system, 14T sprocket test AFR Issues, 11th July, 2013 Log

Well i hope not!! Then someone is publicly claiming that the technicians at Dynojet know nothing and that would be ridiculous!! regardless i reckon with all the souped up parts and proper tuning a conservative 3-4 bhp gain over stock bike is possible at the wheel. Beyond that if we are able to squeeze out anything more then it would be a plus. As far as my ride is concerned, from the very beginning the intent was to see if we can make her slightly more responsive for long distance riding and with the last config along with Leo Vince FFE more or less we have already achieved it. My FZ - X was transformed into a relaxed tourer in comparison to stock. Its just that the itch just doesn't go away if you know what i am saying!!

Even though the bore has crossed 3200+ kms since the inception, with the latest developments i will be honest that i am slightly concerned with the amount of life left in it. The "Bulletproof reliability" claims have already been washed out long back after what i have come to know. So now i am keeping my fingers crossed hoping that with everything torqued in a proper manner and the AFR being stoich, the bore will survive the average city and touring rides till i can get my hands on the NikaSil ones and see what is what!! I feel dyno charts if and when the motorcycle dyno finally becomes available to the public will give out the correct definition of what is to be expected out of such mods. It is an internationally accepted standard to see the actual gains compared to the claims made regarding bhp generation.

Sir i am really looking forward to the stock replica FFE project. I hope Motozone are able tocrack it. And later with the help of dyno we can try and get rid of the popping sounds and also make it more efficient.


WD 40 controversy:

I do have one query though. I have recently come across kawi forums and others where riders have claimed that WD 40 can be used for chain lubing and cleaning agent as well and unlike popular belief it doesnot damage the O - Ring of the chains. Chain Lube & Cleaning WD40 Does Not Damage O-RINGS : Kawasaki ZX Forums: Kawasaki Ninja Forum

Senior riders, please do share your perspective on the same.


Cheers,

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

Shv 18. I honestly hope that your efforts bring forth some understanding to the people.

At the very least people need to understand that taking someone's claims at face value, without any solid numbers and jeopardising your machines in the name of tuning, is sheer lunacy.

Sent from my GT-I9001 using xBhp Connect mobile app

Re: Yoshimura FFE system, 14T sprocket test AFR Issues, 11th July, 2013 Log

The controversy rages on with respect to use of WD 40 on rubber parts...
The fact is if you have Neoprene based "O" rings then there is no possibility of "O" ring damage...rubber is known to reacts with other chemicals, and Neoprene resists reacting wth oil...similarly EPDM is also good, but in the long run, heat and stress will kill it...
In the Air Line Industry which is driven by down time and profits, most of the time a sticky Door hinge is often lubed with WD 40 and the Air craft released to fly....Ever since an accident of a door failure leading to a door flying out during flight, WD 40 is strictly prohibited in the Air Line Industry for such quick fixes...
The FAA strictly prohibits use of WD 40 in the airline Industry....

Here is a link to specific test done on "O" ring with many common solvents/lubes and their effect...including WD 40



There are many opinions for and against WD 40, and here is an interesting link on the subject, which gives the MSDS of WD 40 and also the various use of WD 40...

WD-40, WD41...whatever it takes

Re: Yoshimura FFE system, 14T sprocket test AFR Issues, 11th July, 2013 Log

Agreed sir, but the ban is specific to airline industry whereas motorcycle chains as per the forum link above, people are gung - ho about it hence, the confusion. I understand on xbhp it has already been discussed to death but i hope with inputs from you and others will end this dispute for good and also add some more productive notes on this thread.

Cheers,

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

Hi, can you give more details of the Dyno coming up in Pune.
Also regarding WD-40, have been using it for cleaning o ring chain for over a year, have not faced any problem till now.
Better than any cleaner I have found in the market and cheaper by a good margin if you buy the industrial pack,
also it can be used for other purposes like rust removal, prevention, lubrication etc.
You can spray it and after 2 mins wipe the grime of with a cloth.
You can then lubricate the chain if you want.
BUT REMEMBER TO KEEP THE WD40 FROM GETTING ONTO BRAKE PADS,DISC.

Yoshimura with DB killer, AFR tune and more, Log: 15 July 2013

Hi All,

As mentioned earlier, i was suspecting the carb AFR to be running slightly lean as compared to the earlier Leo Vince and stock exhaust configs i had tried so far. Met the Motozone guys and the first thing we did was to remove the spark plug to give us an idea about what is the burn of the engine like. Turns out my suspicion was right. My FZ - X was running slightly lean with the Yoshimura exhaust.



Pic 1: Spark Plug taken off the engine bay. The colour reading was suggesting slightly lean burn.



Pic 2: Another shot of the Spark plug taken out for reading. Sorry about the image quality. Phone cam sucks!!


So the first thing we did was to rejet the pilot jet from stock 17.5 to 20 and then Mr. Vikram took out the whole diaphragm and replaced one jet which sits right inside the centre of the carburettor, below the venturi to a slightly bigger one (Don't know what is the technical name for this jet!). What we also discovered that the MSD ignition coil's spark output was way too strong for my FZ -X and as a result, i was at times getting minute hint of engine knocking at higher rpms. So we reverted to the stock ignition coil. I am happy to report that my 2010 model came with one of the best ignition coils from the Yamaha's lot. The stock ignition coil is from Moric (http://www.yamaha-motor-elec.co.jp/english/history.html) and the ignition shielded crown cable is from Kurabe (KURABE CO.,LTD Home Page), both made in Japan. We also reverted to the 15T set up as i hated the 14T's high revvy nature.



Pic 3: Moric Ignition coil



Pic 4: Kurabe shielded spark crown cable, made in Japan.


We then did a few test runs and plug chop tests to see if there is any difference with the spark plug reading. After a few rounds when we opened up the spark plug, we noticed that there was a slight change in the colour reading but nothing major. It was still reading slightly lean. I had simultaneously conveyed my complaints against the Yoshi's loud nature to Mr. Vikram and to my surprise, he had already prepared a custom made DB killer specially for this FFE with a slightly bigger diameter exit pipe. Based on what we had learnt from Leo Vince's slight hesitation at 4-5k rpms when the stock Db killer was bolted on, Mr. Vikram made the changes with the design of the DB killer for this one and Wallah the noise was completely gone! I would rate it even better than Leo Vince's exhaust with the DB killer on. And the performance was significantly better than the latter.

This is what i like about Motozone, compared to the "i am busy, racing..." most of us hot roders had been forced to come in terms with! Mr. Vikram always tries to analyse and find a solution rather than trying to sell me a bigger carb to make more monies. To us riders if i may collectively state: it is never about the money, never has been. I believe we all riders expect is a good after sales service and technical support against the money charged for the kits which never happened with the earlier one. i am happy to announce that after getting my ride to Motozone, the results so far have been fruitful .

The Anyways, now with the DB killer on, Mr. Vikram had calculated that there will be a slight change with the back pressure of the exhaust gases thus, a slight change with the AFR. We did a few rounds and the results were very promising. We saw a further change of colour tan with the spark plug inching towards the Stoich side, but still not the perfect mix we were looking for.




Pic: Yoshimura now with the custom made DB killer courtesy Motozone. Works like a charm!


Mr. Vikram was convinced that if we go for 125 main jet size as the next step towards upjetting, we would be flooding the engine with too much fuel. As a result i may get brilliant acceleration but the overall FE will go down significantly. Personally, i am not at all bothered about FE but keeping in mind the touring set up, a decent balance of FE will increase the overall range of the bike. So the next step he decided to take was to try and change the position of the carburettor needle in order to let more fuel in.

For the Noobs, please bear in mind that my ride now has:

* 122.5 main jet
* 20 sized pilot jet
* Stock needle jet of the Pulsar 180 carburettor and
* the other change Mr. Vikram made (P.S. i shall be getting hold of the correct name for it later!).

The current tune up is being carried out at sea level and especially for the change in the fuelling requirement with the Yoshimura Free Flow Exhaust.

Once, we dismantled the needle from the carb slide, we found out that the needle position cannot be adjusted on the Bajaj Pulsar 180 29mm CV carburettor, Bummer!! It was already conveyed to me earlier by rider n-o-v-i-c-e. So Mr. Vikram has assured me that the next time we meet, he will get hold of an adjustable needle which is compatible with my carburettor and we shall experiment with the Slide positions to make the AFR slightly richer in order to get a stoichometric AFR. He wants to ensure that we are able to achieve a perfect balance between the FE and performance. As of now the current AFR will not put my high compression set up in danger: so i can do my regular chores with it. But as a precautionary measure, i shall avoid long distance monsoon mania rides for the moment till we sort out the fuelling. If we are still not able to achieve Stoichometric mix after resetting the needle position then we may try polishing the jets for better atomisation and fuel flow from the existing set up. Will elaborate more on this later.

Now for the hot roders who had received the Apache RTR 180 29mm CV carburettor from RC: please bear in mind that the needle position is adjustable on your carburettor unlike mine. So if you are having issues with the set up along with the stock exhaust:

* 120 main jet
* 17.5 pilot jet
* Pulsar 180 needle jet from the jet kit DJ121056

then, i would recommend first attempting to change the needle position from normal to richer in order to see if the fuelling gets better and also shift to 20 sized pilot jet which comes stock with the RTR 180 carburettor. Ensure that you do a proper spark plug reading using plug chop test. Even after that if the reading is showing slightly lean then shifting to 122.5 main jet will solve the problem. As i had mentioned earlier, Motozone can organise these jets for you though it will pinch your pocket, but rest assured it will solve your fuelling problem for good.

As of now i am happy to report that my ride is happy and free revving. The overall response from the bike has not diminished with the DB killer being bolted on. I guess i can easily zoom past Pandu check nakas without sweating about getting fined! The 15T is an absolute bliss with this kit! i just love the way my bike now hits 60 kmph @ 4000, 70+ @ 5000 and 100+ @7000 rpm. According to PSR Ji, i can also expect a slightly longer chain life with this sprocket mod compared to the stock sprocket set up. I would request him to kindly elaborate more on this for the benefit of the community.

I hope my reports will help any prospective rider looking for hot roding in a new limelight with the existing base of guidelines on this thread to start with: when doing the build and attempting to tune the 29 mm CV carburettor in order to get the best out of this kit!

next in line, To Be Continued: Stock cam Vs RC cam saga: Tailor Saab's valve train hammering effect!!...

Cheers,

Re: Yoshimura with DB killer, AFR tune and more, Log: 15 July 2013

Shv 18....another great write up on what is being done and the results of these changes.....these pages will become a ready reckoner in the future for members wanting to do mods to FZ engine...For a slightly rich needle setting, you can add 0.2 or 0.35 washers under the needle to lift it up inside the slide ..this will improve fuel flow throughout the RPM range...you will feel a strong mid to high rev, and a relaxed high end....too much lift will leave your engine bogging down at high end due to excessive fuel....




Regarding longer chain and sprocket life with 15 teeth GB sprocket compared to 14 Teeth, the reduction in ratio leads to less strain on the parts, and hence longer life....
So it goes without saying that a 13 teeth GB sprocket will increase the wear....compared to 14 teeth GB sprocket.

Re: Yoshimura with DB killer, AFR tune and more, Log: 15 July 2013

@shv18 : Thanks again for the information. This ongoing thread has probably opened the eyes of many people to the world of big bores and the problems associated with changing manufacturer tolerances/specs for the engines.

OT : If you had placed the plug against a white paper/any single color background and then shot the image, the phone's camera would have been able to focus better. Also, if you place an object before the minimum focusing distance, it will be out of focus since the AF is not able to decide on the focus point.

example :

Re: Yoshimura with DB killer, AFR tune and more, Log: 15 July 2013

@ AK3D..your plug shows ideal AFR and plug heat range,but your plug crush washer is intact...you need to tighten the plug more till the washer gets crushed.

Re: Yoshimura with DB killer, AFR tune and more, Log: 15 July 2013

Hai

Just a noob question.

I am not able to go past 6000 rpm in a straight road in 5th gear. It reaches 90+ km/h. But why am I not able to go beyond 6000 rpm in 5th gear. It feels as if the bike has no power beyond 6000 Rpm. But I am able to go beyond 6000 rpm in 4th gear. Please help.

Cheers.

Mathews

Re: Yoshimura with DB killer, AFR tune and more, Log: 15 July 2013

[MENTION=32286]psr[/MENTION] : Thank you very much

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

Hmm... finally got the time to go through all the posts.... Shv18 has been like a Rottweiler, who has got a bite in and just won't let go... dogged persistency and a thirst for knowledge are 2 key ingredients required by people who want to travel the road less travelled. As Shv18's writings highlight, this is no path for the faint hearted or risk averse personality.

Coming to the WD40 controversy. My 2 bits: I fully agree with @psr.

Shv18, to summaries my way of thinking in this matter: 'What is good enough for aviation industry is good enough for my bike'. Aviation industry is mission critical. Mistakes lead to catastrophic failures and loss of life. There is no luxury for second guessing. Therefore, if the Federal Aviation Administration prohibits WD40 in the aviation industry, there has to be a really good reason for the same.

I recall that both of us were at the Yamaha SVC when a young man came in with his bike. If you recall Rakesh examined the bike and informed the gentleman that the chain set needs to be replaced. The bike had only covered 6,000 kms. On further questioning the gentleman, it emerged that he was using WD40 to clean and lubricate the chain.

Torque Ranges, Compression test and other details Log, 24th July, 2013

Hi all,

sorry for not updating the thread. Thanks to severe rainfall in Mumbai and a streak of cough and cold, i have not been able to venture out at all. I have received the first lot of data on the stock cam's lift, just waiting for the RC cam's data to arrive. In the mean time just to keep things productive on this thread, as promised earlier, here are the detailed technical spec sheets and torque ranges of the stock Yamaha FZ 16/Fazer's parts:

(P.S.: all the data has been taken as a screen grab from the Yamaha FZ 16 workshop service manual, EU. )

1) Stock Engine specs & Compression test: Many thanks to rider extremevirus for sharing his data regarding the compression test done on his friends impulse hot roded by RC as mentioned on the thread: http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/general-...-spirit-8.html It gave me an idea to test out the current compression psi range given out by my souped up ride.



Pic 1: Engine Specs.

As shown in the picture above from the workshop service manual, if one notices the stock bike's compression pressure at sea level, it is showing: 1200 kPa (Kilopascals) which translates to around 174.045285 psi (Pounds per square inch). Now based on my discussion with rider abhimanyu31, if i have understood it correctly: keeping things with the maximum limit of 25% psi readings higher than stock values for a 182cc high compression kit, the compression range should be: 217 - 220 psi or roughly 1516.8466 kPa. Mind you riders, the calculation done, has not kept into consideration of change in the dimensions of the cylinder head because of porting done and also the increase in compression ratio to 10:5:1 (claimed by the seller) from stock 9.50:1.. so i shall confirm the actual values after running the nos. with abhimanyu31 and Motozone and see what can be considered the safe limit of compression for RC kitted bikes in order to ensure that we donot cross the safe limit which if is the case:

* will induce overcompression = pre detonation of fuel = engine knocking = worse: leading to engine seizure.

I was contacted by one gentlemen who has recently suffered a catastrophic engine seizure with RC kits barely under 3k kms since, installation. Respecting his privacy, i shall not take his name. But just for educational purpose would share a few pics for all esteemed riders to analyse the extent of damage and possible reasons behind the kit failure.

Below are some of the images:



Pic 2: BB Cylinder severely damaged and cracked. Note the metal bits around the cylinder.



Pic 3: Piston shredded to pieces. Piston rings broken into pieces.



Pic 4: Valve train system severely damaged.



Pic 5: Piston pin visible inside the engine bay.



Pic 6: Spark plug electrode completely melted indicating high temperature and detonation inside the combustion chamber.



Pic 7: Another image of the BB cylinder found to be cracked.



Pic 8: Damaged conrod.

Initial reports indicate:

* Lean tuning.
* Extremely high compression and high temperatures leading to premature detonation of the fuel.
* Possible unchecked cylinder: whether the boring @ TDC was same as BDC. At higher rpms, the piston might have got stuck @ TDC and the crank trying to pull it down along with pre detonation due to over compression: all leading to an unfortunate recipe for engine seizure.
* Piston being of cheap quality with manufacturing defects during the casting process itself, possibly having minute microscopic cracks.

Other riders may share their respective inputs to the possible cause behind this kind of seizure. I believe this is one of the first documented RC kit failure where the piston has literally broken into pieces. Minimum damage to the poor rider: INR 10 - 12k!! Would i blame the rider in this case? the answer is a plain NO!! There were no set of instructions from the seller regarding what steps to follow and how to check whether the kit is installed and performing properly as it is supposed to.

These pictures rang the alarm bells in my head hence, the decision to get the compression test done ASAP!! So one more pointer especially for noobs: ensure you get the compression test done in order to see whether your BB kit supplied from the seller is indicating over-compression or is well within the limits of what the kit and the engine can withstand. A compression testing unit is usually available in a proper Yamaha SVC. IF not one can also buy it from a proper automobile store or else may request Motozone to help them get hold of one. A compression testing manual dial gauge unit looks like this:



Pic 9: Compression Testing unit


A video link explaining the same:



and




2) Engine Specs: Valves, Valve Springs, Valve Clearances Etc. : The chart below is self descriptive. Note the Valve Spring details.




Pic 10: Engine Specs: Valve train system details and clearances.



Pic 11: Engine specs: Valve Train System and clearances.


3) Torque Ranges of Yamaha FZ 16/Fazer Parts & Engine: I hope that now Noobs as well as stock bike riders will now be loaded with this information to chew the brains of the SVC people and ensure that they torque every bolt and nut properly using a torque wrench as specified by Yamaha.



Pic 12: Torque Ranges P 1


Pic 13: Torque Ranges P 2



Pic 14: Engine Torque Ranges


More reports coming soon.


Cheers,

Re: Torque Ranges, Compression test and other details Log, 24th July, 2013

Interesting detailed post....
The picture of blown piston and bore clearly shows a Piston which had shattered inside the bore due to excessive heat, and Detonation.....the entire Bore and Piston is non-usable.. the same would have happened to the bottom end also, with damaged con-rod and crankshaft.
Looking forward to further updates.

Re: Torque Ranges, Compression test and other details Log, 24th July, 2013

so much for the "semi forged" piston.......