Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

Ya!! You got my mind. This is what I advice to my friends who say I wanna mod. Its passion for some people like [MENTION=32641]shv18[/MENTION]. Am not into that and I really appreciate his effort. But for others who have no idea on modding and think they can beat a ninja by modding R15 for some 20k,its absolutely wrong. May be you can beat.. But you cant even come closer to the reliability or peace of mind that stock R15 or ninja can provide. So if you want more power,sell and get the bike that you wanna beat

Coming to FI. Ya I agree its difficult to find a map suitable for the mod. But not as difficult as carb,since we get all the info from the sensors present unlike carb where we have to ride or open the engine to find out what we have done. Once we get the map, its all good to go

PS: I learnt a whole lot from this thread. Thanks [MENTION=32641]shv18[/MENTION] and others for sharing what you know

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18


a) Hot roding is not for people who want to spend just 20k extra and then want an SBK performance and stock reliability. Same has been mentioned on the 1st page of this thread.

b) Hot roding is a process of trial and error to see what is the maximum potential a stock engine can be pushed to to get the performance without blowing up the engine. Unlike claims made by the "Tooner". Luckily in my case i have done all the possible experiments within my limits and shared the same for the benefit of the community.

c) Hot roding will not result in making an engine "bullet proof as stock" but with better understanding, usage of quality parts and proper steps to get the fuelling right, build, correct torques and build mock ups... one can make a bike close to stock reliability based on the level of build one takes it to. If one goes for an extreme build then the life of the engine will also reduce drastically.

d) Your perception about getting best of everything just by retuning ECU is not right. To gain something you will have to lose something. To get more performance out of stock bike with richer fuelling you will lose on FE and more carbon deposition in the engine. Please understand one thing which i feel every Noob should keep it as a base when it comes to any engine: It is nothing but a glorified pump!! the moment one changes a parameter be it volume in CCs, pistons, head porting, FFE or anything one will also have to alter the parameters of the rest of the components to make it work effectively.

A stock bike has been tested to the core by a manufacturer they know what works best in that set up. What a hot roder is trying to do is play around with that set up to gain something more out of it but at the same time keeping it within the safe limits of the engine's tolerance. The challenge is how to keep things ticking in precision even when one has altered stuff in the engine for the pursuit of a specific outcome. In my case a bit more power with slight balance in FE.

The new chapter in my case, the intro looks good thanks to Motozone. But the rest of the story still remains to be told as i continue diving deeper into the build and clock up more miles.

Just my two cents...


Cheers,

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

Shiv18...another concise,to the point and crystal clear post...you amaze me with the depth of your understanding of Hot rodding and the effects,which you have learned in Such a short time....
This Thread is in SAFE HANDS...
Good Luck...

700 kms & FE report, Log 28th Aug 2013

Hi All,

keeping speeds under check i have quickly covered 700 kms on the new head and high lift cam. The engine has become much smoother and thanks to the new head and cam, all irritations are gone now:

* No Engine knocking even at 9,500 rpms
* The bike pulls cleanly from rpms as low as 2,000
* No Cam noise or unwanted vibrations even at higher rpms unlike it was the case with "Tailor Saab"

After 3rd fill up, the FE is now hovering around 39 - 40 kmpl @ speeds of 70 - 90 kmph which translates to 5000 - 6000 rpm, half the rpm i would normally stay in on open, traffic and pedestrian free roads. The amount of rpms required have gone down to achieve the same speed because of the 15T - 40T sprocket set up which makes the overall riding very relaxed and ample amount of power left to overtake.

Thanks to the new highlift cam, overtaking a vehicle is such an easy job. One just needs to open the throttle from 1/4th to 2/4ths and thats it!! The bike would quickly accelerate and before you know it, you have already crossed the vehicle ahead of you. I guess on highway runs, this will give me an edge over stock FZs and Fazers which struggle post 85kmph to overtake and maintain speeds.

If the bore was in good health, with the current set up, i can easily keep my FZ - X at 100 kmph all day long @7000 rpm, translating to a very capable tourer when compared to stock Yamaha FZ/Fazer. For a 2 valve, 182cc air cooled engine, it is quite an achievement.

I will take my bike through a proper inspection by Motozone and if i get a go ahead then will opt for a long distance run, keeping a spare bottle of engine oil handy for top ups, hopefully by the end of September. Its been a while since, i have taken care of my cravings for long distance runs...


Let's see.


Cheers,

Generic GK

Hi All,

Just found some interesting videos regarding how some of the stuffs are made. Hope this adds some more value on this thread

Bicycle chains; how its made:

Bike Chains - How its Made - YouTube


Piston; How its made:

How It's Made Engine Pistons - YouTube


Competition Camshaft how its made:



V Twin motorcycle Engine; How its made:



Cheers,

Re: 700 kms & FE report, Log 28th Aug 2013

Hello Friends,

Its been a long time since I have been active on this thread. I am sorry for not being able to update anything. Coz I was out of the city.

The past few months have been excruciatingly tragic in my life and being personal I am avoiding any extra details. I jut hope you people understand and
respond to me positively after these many days.

Now that I am back I intend on taking this chapter to the logical conclusion this time once and for all.

And I ask the seniors to pitch in and help me too as has been the case on this thread with shv18, psr sir, abhimanyu31 and others.

Yesterday I started my bike which has been dormant for more than 55 days. It started after a lot of cranking and took a long time to warm up.

As a refresh to your memory I have the following parts installed.

1. RC camshaft (Tailor Saab as told by shv18)

2. 182 cc block and the so-called semi forged piston.

3. P180 UG4 carburetor passed on to me as another OEM with a high cost.

4. RC FFE - I have removed that, since it was playing havoc with my tuning of the carburetor.

5. Simota Air filter.

The bike would not start without opening the throttle when the engine is cold. It would start without the throttle only when the engine is hot after a ride.

The RC camshaft still makes a hell lot of noise and the sound has actually increased against the claims that it would die down after clocking some kms.

I have seen that shv18 has been on to quite a racket on this thread for the past week or so. Justifiably coz he has lost the block piston so soon.
Mine is still ok but i have been keeping an eye on the oil level and so fat it has been good.

We had been in contact through telephonic conversations occasionally. So I would not say I was ignorant of this thread completely.

So the first thing to do this week is to revert back to stock camshaft and get the TPS fitted on to the UG4 carburetor.

Lets see how it goes on from here. And now that I am back I shall be active here.

cheers...

Re: 700 kms & FE report, Log 28th Aug 2013

Novice.....Sorry to know that you have gone through tragic circumstances in your life.......My prayers to God to be with you through difficult times and guide you with Love.

972kms report, Log 3rd Sept 2013

Hi All,

Here is a quick report after clocking 972 kms:


* The FE has been consistently hovering around 40 kmpl while keeping the speeds between 70 - 90 kmph which translates to roughly 5000 - 6000 rpm.

* I am always on the lookout now to run away from home and take her out for a spin. I am now reaping all the benefits of doing the whole thing right way thanks to Motozone guys. FE and and engine refinement makes the whole thing a pleasurable experience.

* After 700 kms the engine oil consumption has reduced. I guess it can be attributed to the self restrictions imposed with the speed and rpms. If and when i do go for the long distance run, i will note down the observations and report back here.

* When i do stop at a traffic signal and would like to crank her back to life before the signal turns green, she prefers a slight dab of throttle. Everything is back to hunky dory again after that. As mentioned earlier, starting my FZ - X when the engine is cold requires slight throttle and then constant modulation of throttle till the engine heats up. After that she is idling at stable 1800 rpms. I guess that is the nature of a high lift camshaft and honestly i can live with the trade off as the benefits from it are quite visible.

* No reverse cranks or large thud sounds coming from the engine unlike it was observed with the RC cam and later with the stock cam on the RC ported head. Earlier i always felt my engine was having a heart attack with the RC cam whenever a large thud noise cam from the engine bay. Now thanks to the new head and the cam all these issues are not present!!


* I had a word with rider n-o-v-i-c-e and he is busy right now getting things fixed on his ride as well. I sincerely hope we do get to hear one more turn around story appearing on this thread very soon.

Till then stay tuned...


Cheers,

Re: 972kms report, Log 3rd Sept 2013

Hi Shivang! Good to hear your bike is performing well. Lets meet up at Motozone next weekend or week after that. Whats the update on the Nikasil Bore? How many months more before we get to witness it?

Re: 700 kms & FE report, Log 28th Aug 2013

I thank you for your kind words psr sir and for your understanding. I do hope you shall continue helping us with your valuable experience and suggestions.

Today I met with the Motozone guys and had a long chat about what to do about the bike mods and how should be our approach further.

Mr. Vikram and his brother gave some very helpful insights.

The bike would get shutdown at exactly 2K rpm in any gear and in fact also in the neutral gear accompanied by a small sound.

Now I cant say if the sound is more like a 'thud' or 'clank'. But they believe it must be the after effect of not having a decompression unit on our noiseless, silent RC camshaft.

So we decided to take a call on the camshaft issue after we first take care of the fueling issue.

The 29mm BS(bulls**t) UCAL carburetor is running on 117.5 main jet, 17.5 pilot jet and p180 kit needle jet and non adjustable jet needle.

So the carburetor would now be properly jetted and fitted with any other required parts also from Motozone itself.

Thats quite a relief instead of me touring the city looking for any and all parts and then returning disappointed.

And along with this the TPS would finally get fitted on the carb. So the spark would be obtained as per the engine requirement and the annoying red
console light would also be gone for good.

This would conclude the fueling issue for a start and then we shall move towards other mods.

Unfortunately they are busy till next week and only then would the work on my bike start.

So lets hope I have something to cheer after the work is done. Shall reserve my comments until the work begins.

cheers...


Thats sad to hear buddy. Not even that. I am furious after reading you write-up.

This is not at all good, as a person as well as a seller. Outrageous.

Well, I just hope this too saves some, if not all, people from getting duped.

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

Danny very sorry to hear your account of bad experience...though the thread had seen only few reports of bad experience, I think there are many who had suffered silently , and had preferred to remain inside their shells ...leading to more Victims falling prey....
It is Good of you to come forward and post your bad experience, which I hope will serve as another warning to potential Victims..
You can revert your R15 to stock , or if you insist on Hot rodding, stick with Shv18, and Motozone since both are very practical and do not have any tall claims of being better than stock, or all about tuning and setup man....If you notice the bore in your R15 it will be having 135cc mark on it..It belongs to a failed bore of Yamaha Y 135 scooter which is then overbored to accept a Steel insert and bored to required size...Both Y 135 and R15 come with Diasil coated bore with no steel sleeve insert..
Hope your troubles end and you are back to enjoying your ride..
Good Luck...

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

Hi @dannyR15 .

First of all thank you for coming forward and sharing your first hand experience on this thread which a lot of disgruntled customers don't often do. It is really sad that you also had to join my league of being duped in the name of performance and gains over stock, but i guess we all learn from our mistakes (sometimes really expensive ones!!).

Now just for the benefit of the community i would like to share what transpired during our quick conversation over phone (@dannyR15, please correct me if i have misunderstood or missed out on anything ) :

Option 1:

shv18: Write it off as a bad experience and revert to stock like @psr ji has suggested!

dannyR15: Not an option i would like to go for.


Option 2:

shv18: Write of the bike, sell it off as a loss and then probably look for a good 2nd hand KTM Duke 200 with stock 25bhp power and if at all you want it to be hot rodded, you have an option of ECU remap from KIIRIUS or Motozone Performance, a proper foam air filter which gives better performance and protection then compared to the crappy simota air filter i am running now, 40T or 39T rear sprocket mod and rev limiter being removed as extensively discussed on the KTM Duke 200 thread.

dannyR15: Don't like Duke 200's looks so not an option


Option 3:

shv18: Sell off the R15 or revert to stock, use it till you can gather finances and then ugrade to a 43.5 bhp bike like the KTM Duke 390. You will get stock performance and reliability as well.

dannyR15: Love my R15, and would like to get hot roding done the correct way so will not sell and 390 is not an option.



So after rider dannyR15 verified that he is still willing to learn and go ahead with hot roding, i suggested him to get in touch with Motozone as i have seen they are currently busy building one of the most craziest R15 in India with the best of everything, a no limits build and i feel they do have the expertise to do hot roding the correct way based on what i have learnt and shared with you all. As mentioned by Mr. Vikram himself; he is not a master/god/know it all of everything but has the necessary contacts of experts and resources to get things sorted out for a particular build and the requirement of the customer...

Now before bashers and 'Tooner' supporters start tinkering with their brains: NO I DON'T OWN MOTOZONE PERFORMANCE and NO I AM NOT AFFILIATED WITH THEM IN ANY MANNER besides being one of the satisfied customers. So please spare me the axe and use your time in riding and something more productive!!


Based on the information shared by dannyR15, with my limited knowledge i will try and deduce what is the reason behind 3 Bb kit seizures back to back:

1) Based on my understanding the "Tooner" sold our rider a 182cc bb kit with a 'fully forged' (read standard cast piston) which again has the weight on the intake side instead of the exhaust side and left the stock ECU to adjust the fuelling for an increase of upto 30cc from stock. Now if all the readers remember my post about engine being nothing but a glorified pump, what did we learn??

The stock ECU cannot compensate for the increase in cubic capacity of the 30ccs as the ECU was never designed to handle the parameters like fuelling, ignition timing etc. So the bike was running very lean (first ingredient for disaster!!). So to make money the "Tooner" chose to leave out such a vital information from the unsuspecting buyer.

2) Besides that the 182cc increases the compression like crazy from stock to 13:1 ratio.. so we have lean fuelling + high compression (First & second ingredient for disaster!!).. as mentioned to me by dannyR15 even with using Speed 97 high octane fuel, the engine was knocking like crazy.

3) As we have all come to know by now the BB kit is nothing but a combination of factory reject bore from Yamaha 135LC sold in other Asian countries with inserted with a bigger sleeve and bored out to hit 182cc dimensions. Since, the quality control is so bad, the cylinder itself is slightly elliptical rather than being geometrically a perfect shape and minute imperfections are present which makes the high compression piston get stuck at places only to be saved by the engine oil which is trying really hard to avoid the engine seizure. But in this whole tug of war process the overall core operating temperature of the engine increases to very high and dangerous levels (First, second & third ingredient for disaster!!)

4) Now to add the woes the unsuspecting rider also added a free flow exhaust, which further reduces the backpressure and thus disturbs the Air to Fuel ratio even further (remember the theory of the glorified pump folks?? and this is the fourth ingredient for disaster!!).

5) To control the heat the LC system was working overtime to control the temperature of the core engine.

So now we have:

* A stock ECU unable to compensate the fuelling required by a bb kit, the ignition timing being set for a 153cc whereas the 182cc requires different fuelling and ignition timing
* High compression and lean fuelling.
* BB kit being warped increasing the core temperature of the engine
* Free flow exhaust
* LC system not being able to handle the add on heat stress

RESULT??: Engine LC gasket been blown and engine seizure!! If i remember correctly our victim did mention that one of the pistons out of the 3 seizures had broken into bits which confirms my suspicion about pre-detonation of fuel and the piston not being of "Fully forged" but just a mere cast piston unlike the claims made by our 'Race Tooner'. After what i have uncovered on this thread, i have come to know from other sources that our beloved 'Tooner' has gone ahead and started making claims on other internet platforms that he is the sole designer and developer and provides his products to: BB kit, racing CDI valves springs, clutch springs etc. etc. to everyone like Automotivepartshop adored by MadMik as we all have come to know , UMA Racing, TDR Racing and many others all across the world who have been selling such kits even before our 'Tooner' came into existence!! I guess we have an inventor and a demi - god amongst ourselves folks!!

So according to the theory of 'Bullet proof reliability and better than stock performance" Yamaha, Honda, Bimota, BMW, MV Augusta, Ducati, KTM and all famous motorcycle makers are simply idiots to have spent so much money on developing two stroke, 4 stroke, single cylinder, twin cylinder, 3 cylinder and 4 cylinder engines since the last 4-5 decades right? They should stop manufacturing everything and come for tuition to our 'Tooner' pay the advance money for attending the lectures only to find the lecturer not being available from 8 months to a year as he is busy with mythological races of biblical proportions in India where there is not much audience nor sponsors for this form of motorsport which apparently are bigger than MotoGP and F1 races held all across the world!!..

There is a limit to 'self appreciation' and 'tall claims' man!! If the esteemed readers and Noobs have still not understood the punchline of salesmanship and snakeoil products and still want to jump in the mud pit.. well then i wish you all the best gentlemen!! I would request all the readers and supporters of our 'Tooner' to ask yourself these questions:

* How much investment of money is required to do a proper CAD design, workflow bench, Casting technology, testing, licensing of all these products?? To those who all have visited 'Tooners' workshop can believe even for one second whatever has been claimed??
* So far how many horror stories have come forward in front of you even after Bullet Proof reliability and Race Engineer assurances have been given to you??
* How many of the customers have had to wait for the kits to arrive from the date of making to full payment to the day of receiving the kit?? Does the excuse list include: Labour problem, busy with races, man i am busy will call you back, Sorry dude its eid here so all my workers have left, its getting delivered next week but never does nor provides you the courier tracking no. etc. etc.??
* How has been the customer after sales support from RC??

I rest my case gentlemen!!

SAAR!! i am not expert but merely an apprentice.. I have learnt so much from you and other senior riders and hope to learn more about engines as i dive deeper into this subject. Hope we don't have anymore sad stories of people getting duped now atleast after what has been shared extensively on this thread.


Cheers,

Re: 700 kms & FE report, Log 28th Aug 2013

Novice... sorry to hear you have been going through a difficult period in life... all I can say is hang in there, things will get better.... If I recall correctly our discussion on fueling, I had suggested to you that you need to find yourself someone knowledgeable in your town and its impossible that there would not be someone around who could solve this issue for you. So finally you have ended up at the right place and I can say with reasonable confidence after having been through Shiv's side for his whole experience, your problems with be resolved.

Everyone... I have been a silent spectator for quite sometime now and have been a witness to the whole sordid mess... there have been developments with my bike and I will be writing in detail about all the issues and covering all issues being raised by all... Just a few more days for the certain developments to crystalize...

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

I sincerely hope that your words come true and people getting duped stops... like yesterday......but every week i used to get responses from duped owners asking for solutions...Now that you have come on the scene, the queries to me have reduced, and you must be at the receiving end....
The Tooner has no idea about tuning,... how else will one recommend a 33mm "D" slide,in place of 29mm carburetor, for a 10cc upgrade of engine capacity ?
Thanks for pitching in to help these troubled members with their ride...
Good Luck...

Casual speed run attempt with just 2 ltrs fuel 4th Sept 2013

Hi All,

Just on experimental basis, today i did a speed run with just 2 ltrs of fuel in the tank and she was able to hit 124 kmph with the DB Killer still on and quite a lot of rpms to go. What i really enjoyed was not the top end but the way she gathered up the speed even with the 15T 40 T custom sprocket set up. I guess i will have to reduce my overall mass by atleast 10 kgs which will translate to better power to weight ratio for my FZ - X... the current "feather weight" is not helping at all... attempt is on let's see how quickly i can achieve my target..

Engine oil was topped up and the consumption is hovering around 10 - 20 ml per 500 kms now.

FE is still hovering around 40 kmpl which is quite commendable...

My FZ - X is turning 3 on 9th Sept 2013 BTW.. So three years of happy, sad and now awesome relationship with her i am looking forward for a few more...

I am not free for the next two weeks mate. Why don't you connect with the Motozone guys and see whether they can assist you with the same? There is no supervision required from anyone's end as rider abhimanyu31's post on Ninja 300 thread clearly shows that they know their work.

I am not pressurising Mr. Vikram to get the kits in a jiffy as this time i want the things to be done in the right manner. I have already witnessed their work's potential just by trying out the prototype head and cam so i am looking forward to the new NiKaSil kits to arrive. When it does, the ownership reports shall be shared on this thread.


All the best...



Cheers,