Motozone: Head & Mild Lift Camshaft Prototype, Ring Failure 17th Aug 2013 Log

Hi All,

Yesterday was really a fun day. Many thanks to riders abhimanyu31, Chinmayakar, FZERIDER and Abhayanshu for coming forward and meet up. Had a good time exchanging ideas, experiences, our views about hot roding, biking and general stuff. To make it slightly philosophical, all of us are from different backgrounds, different work profiles and reside in different parts of this Metro city, Mumbai. But everyone shared a common passion and enthusiasm which is motorcycling. We had enough matter to keep things going from morning to evening till the work on my bike was done. Thanks guys, i really enjoyed the enthusiasm and the company: learned a lot from everyone. We should definitely plan a long ride once i can get rid of this piece of junk BB kit.

I guess i got too carried away chatting up with these gentlemen: so much so that i completely forgot to take the pics of the build and installation. Forgive me guys. Will do that soon. Motozone have developed 3 protoype versions of the Ported Engine Head and the Camshaft for Yamaha FZ/Fazer from their stable. The one that has been currently installed on my FZ -X is a high lift camshaft and ported head for more power and performance. So they made it very clear to me that the FE will take a hit. Rider abhimanyu31 had a look at the the port work done on Motozone's engine head in comparison to the RC head. I would request him to please do share his views on the same.

Rider Chinmayakar & FZERIDER had a small test ride on my FZ - X. I know that it is not enough to give out an overall verdict just by going for a short spin, but nonetheless, if and when time permits i would request both of you gentlemen to please do share your impressions here.

Just for the record, my ride now has:

* 182cc BB kit
* Ported head and high lift camshaft from Motozone
* 29mm CV carb
* Simota Air filter
* Leo Vince GP Corsa Stainless Steel Full Exhaust System with the DB Killer/insert installed (Thanks to the "pandus" in the city!)
* 15 T Front and 40T rear sprocket config.
* Motozone Pre Programmed CDI

INITIAL OBSERVATIONS:

* It was interesting to note that the moment we installed the Motozone's ported head and high lift cam set up and went ahead with a few test rounds; without changing anything on the carb or fiddling with the last carb set up/ slide positions we had kept set with the RC head (i.e 122.5 mainjet, 17.5 pilot jet & needle jet from Pulsar 180 kit, Apache RTR adjustable needle with the needle position kept at the richest setting) the spark plug readings showed an ideal AFR burn i.e Chocolate brown colour tan on the plug electrodes. I am not sure what is the reason but my guess is the flow of the AF gas charge on this head is very different from that of the RC ported engine head for FZ.

* Now in comparison to "Tailor Saab" or the RC high lift camshaft, There is no stitching noise, no crazy vibrations/back fire/reverse cranking nothing. I took a short video after reaching home. Below is the link for the same:


Video Link 1: My FZ - X with the new Motozone ported head and highlift cam

UPDATED:



Video Link 2: "Tailor Saab" camshaft noise. Guys please do make a comparison between the two and see it for yourself. Please note that both the videos have been shot with the same phone camera so there is no audio enhancement done on this one to tarnish someone's image just for the heck of it. Facts have been laid in front of you rest is for you to decide.


Please do note that the video with the Motozone kit is more for trying to catch the sounds emanating from the engine and camshaft rather than trying to work on the visuals itself. The parking lot was quite dark so please do ignore the blank video screen turning up at times. This video has been shot with my phone cam so the sound quality will not be that great but should give you some idea if one makes a comparison with the videos posted earlier on this thread with the RC camshaft installed.

* If one notices in the video above, when compared to "tailor saab" the noise is almost non-existent and is more less same like with the stock engine. Only when i attempted WOT or took the revs beyond 6,000 rpms there is a certain amount of sound coming from the engine bay which is like when a turbo charger starts spooling up in a car: Whirring noise. I think i really like this additional note sung by my FZ -X; its not irritating but somehow contributing to the whole experience of riding my bike if you know what i am saying. Feels like my bike now has a turbo charger kit installed. Some more riding should allow me to give an in depth perspective on the same.

* In terms of pure performance: It is a different experience all together!! The FZ - X feels like it is currently high on something. The throttle has become really sensitive. The moment i cross 3,000 rpm the acceleration is very fast and progressive and the engine happily revs past 9,000 rpm to the absolute edge of the tachometer. In comparison to the stock camshaft, the overall experience is completely different. It feels very fast and goes like a bullet.

* The rpms are quite erratic when the engine is cranked to life and is cold. One has to initially keep the engine idle screw adjusted to a higher position in order to allow the engine maintain the idling at 1100 rpm. Once the engine hits the peak operating temperature, the rpms will start shooting past 2000 - 2200 rpms sometimes even 3000 rpms. The idle screw then has to be dialed down to reduce the rpms to around 1800 - 2000 rpms. This high lift cam really doesn't like being kept at idling below 1800 rpms or else the engine will shut off the moment, one reels back on the throttle and dips the clutch to change gears at slow speeds.

* The engine braking has now significantly reduced when in comparison to the stock camshaft. I am now more dependent on heavy application of brakes and the gear/engine braking in order to effectively cut speed. So one has to be extra careful when attempting high speed runs. If one may recollect i had faced the same issue with "Tailor saab" as well. My guess is the brake life of both front and rear will take a massive hit now due to this phenomenon. Luckily it costs just a dime for replacement brake pads which should keep things light on my wallet; maximum Rs. 300-350 for both sets. I would request PSR Ji and other senior riders to kindly give their views regarding the reason behind the change in the behaviour of the engine due to the installation of a high lift cam.

* Without any effort from my end, i was able to shoot past the 100 kmph figure and hit 114 kmph in less than 600 mtrs. Beyond this the speedo nos. started slowing down. Readers please note that the DB insert has been kept installed while i was attempting to check out the overall increase in performance; hence, the issues of the loss in power between 4-5,000 rpms (like in the earlier tests) and the top end beyond 8,000 rpms becomes very significant the moment one attempts WOT. The same thing is non-existent the moment the DB insert has been removed. My guess is Leo Vince Full exhaust system has been designed for a 153cc stock engine. The current 182cc kit and the extra gases being generated is creating back pressure which is further actuated when the DB insert is installed thus, hindering the performance. I have already requested Motozone to start working on a custom DB insert with a bigger dia exhaust tip in order to see if we can ease out the back pressure and the performance drop is reduced significantly.


Once everything was installed, Mr. Vikram drained the engine oil. We all were quite shocked to notice the colour of the engine oil which has completely turned black. Based on my experience with Motul 300 V 15 W 50 FS oil, this is quite unusual for a 3,600 kms old oil. abhimanyu31 suspects that the signs are most likely indicating piston ring failure and that the quality of the rings are quite average for such a high tolerance set up. We changed the oil and oil filter and i have been gifted a small bottle of fresh engine oil by Motozone to top up the bike the moment i notice a drop in levels of the engine oil. abhimanyu31 has suggested me to check at intervals of every 300-500 kms and top up if necessary.

I am now eagerly awaiting for the new NiKaSil big bore kit from Motozone so that i can quickly get rid of this kit and write it off as a bad experience. Also i can then start resuming my long distance rides. Until i finish testing the new ported head and cam properly, i will not give a complete green signal to any of kits offered from this tuning house. So far the experience and the attitude of Motozone guys has been very positive. I do hope they will keep it this way.


Cheers,

Re: Motozone: Head & Mild Lift Camshaft Prototype, Ring Failure 17th Aug 2013 Log

Shv 18....another detailed informative post from you..enjoyed going through it, since it contains valuable data...I would like to make observations for what ever it is worth....

1.The Plug chop with new "setup" shows Chocolate brown which is ideal for an engine's reliable running...

2. The New High Lift Cam seems to be just right for your engine..that you are not hearing any Sewing Machine sound indicates that the cam lobe profile is not wild...difficulty to set proper Idling is part of high lift cam ....with high lift cam there will be difference in Valve overlap which at lower RPM causes this problem....

3. You have said that at higher RPMs there is a sound like Turbo spooling and can hear a whirring sound...Please check up with Motozone if your valves are getting into mild valve float and lags behind the cam in returning back to position at higher RPMs....

4. Your Engine oil becoming Black is an indication of Compression leak through the Rings and the spent gas coming into the crank case.....obviously there is no proper Piston Ring sealing...Try using Mineral oils for another 3~4 K Kms and see if engine oil fouling continues...if it does then your bore and Piston rings are not sealing properly and you will loose engine oil progressively.

5. Engine braking being poor is because of the high lift cam....with more overlap, the engine has less time ,when the valves are closed,(compared to stock) and this leads to the running on experience....

Please remember that the Designer and Manufacturer Knows EXACTLY how the engine will work with the STOCK setup , and All parts are chosen with specific metal , and clearance specification , best suited for the design and any alteration to any part in the Engine ,is at the Expense of, Refinement,and Reliability...
Unless the design Parameters are Known, all and any alterations to Stock Engine is not advisable ...

Hope this helps

Re: Motozone: Head & Mild Lift Camshaft Prototype, Ring Failure 17th Aug 2013 Log

@shv18 & @psr : Isnt engine oil supposed to become black after some time, atleast after couple of thousand kms? In all my oil changes till date (since the days when the bike was fully stock) it was always black when drained for oil change. I have used Shell Advance Ultra for a long time now and it was drained at intervals 4-5k kms and it was fully black by then.But when I was checking level on dip stick it always had yellowish colour which became more brown with time.


350 or 500? People might get misled by this comment


Another point to be noted is the drawback you mentioned of high lift cams (uneven idling, unhappy bike below 3k rpm, cold start problems & changing idle to suit) are the exact same things which I faced when I was using the 33mm carb. Surprising to see how to entirely different mechanical components can provide similar results.

So I am guessing you will revert to stock cam, considering your touring requirements.

Re: Motozone: Head & Mild Lift Camshaft Prototype, Ring Failure 17th Aug 2013 Log

Hi Shv. The ride was very short on your bike. However, initial impression was good. As discussed with you earlier, I could feel throttle jamming on release, probably an issue with the carb. Once that is taken care of it should be a hoot to ride. I too am eagerly waiting for the Nikasil bore on your FZ. Should be a good experience.

If all goes well, my D200 exhaust upgrade is next in line as discussed yesterday.

Re: Motozone: Head & Mild Lift Camshaft Prototype, Ring Failure 17th Aug 2013 Log

Thank you sir,

As discussed over telecon might i be honest, Motozone exactly told me the same thing what you have mentioned about stock cam Vs high lift cam even before we were planning to get their kits installed. A manufacturer has spent millions of Rs. to get a stock bike match with a proper cam to handle the daily needs of a normal rider. What we are attempting or rather looking at is to play with the settings within the safe limit of an engine and one will have to sacrifice one thing or the other. In my case as of now the idling rpm has to kept in check in order to enjoy the new found performance gain but to me that is not a loss. Atleast i don't have to live with an irritating stitching noise from "Tailor Saab" for the rest of my life!! The RC cam is purely a wild cam and the lobes have not been designed or casted properly to be gentle with the valve train system and at the same time offer performance and power.

As i have mentioned before, i really do appreciate the honesty from Motozone's end in every aspect. This is one of the first tuning house's in India where they have delivered exactly what was promised to me. But till further tests are completed i shall refrain from giving full marks not just yet.

Regarding, the possible valve float condition at higher rpms, i had already checked with them and Mr. Vikram has mentioned that there is no valve float with the current cam. The whirring noise is because of a combination of air flow, cam design and the way the valves open and close now. And to be honest, the whirring noise/the turbo spooling sound really adds a character to my FZ -X now. I really like it !!

If the NiKaSil bores take some more time to arrive, i shall change the engine oil to Shell Rimula R4 15W 40 mineral oil like we have discussed on phone. I hope a thicker grade and viscosity oil will hopefully reduce the oil consumption and protect my engine internals from getting damaged. Thanks to this stupid leaking bore i now cannot engage in my long distance ride activities over the weekend anymore. But nonetheless lesson learnt!


For Motul 300V NO! on my stock Yamaha FZ, the engine oil lost its colour only after crossing 4700 kms without losing the lubrication properties. The engine still felt smooth. It just that i chickened out and drained the FS oil just to keep things within a self made safety limit. With the current set up,the engine was also feeling a bit rough till we drained the oil and saw the condition. It was not just black but slightly gooey as well indicating ring failure/leakage. Quality control according to my understanding has been clearly ignored before shipping it off to the user. As mentioned earlier the low oil level adds more woes and also drops quickly if i keep the engine at higher revs on highway rides.

How did your experiment with the 29mm CV carb go?? i am sure you are more happy with the overall low, mid and top end now??? Please do share your experience on your thread and be in touch with PSR Ji, his guidance really helped me to conduct all my jetting experiments without blowing off the engine!! :P

Royal enfield Bullet?? LOL!! A GoPro speed run should put things to rest i suppose. Today the weather looks good so shall attempt a speed run may be later at night??

Yes the throttle jamming issue was recently discovered. I completely forgot to mention it in the post above. Thanks for bringing it up mate. The reason behind this minute issue being the 29mm CV carburettor is slightly bigger then the stock 26mm CV carb. So the positioning of the throttle cable is at a certain angle and with the BS modified 26 lever being slightly longer than stock, it gets stuck if one attempts WOT and fully locks the throttle beyond WOT until one pushes the throttle back manually, then the cable will release from WOT to its resting position. I will get that fixed soon.

But with the new high lift cam, on an open road, i really don't have to wring the throttle anywhere to the maximum position to get the performance. The nos. on the speedo climb so fast that you are more busy looking at the road ahead for obstacles rather than looking at the speedometer. I believe i unintentionally pissed of quite a lot of riders/posers yesterday on my way back.. but in all forms i am completely against street racing and lane cutting in traffic.

I am sure the exhaust mod will add some more ponies, sound and character to your beloved KTM Duke 200 mate. Local aftersales & service will be a bonus.

I am impatiently looking forward to the NiKaSil BB kit as the current leaking bore is adding more headache then the pleasure i was hoping for. Constantly monitoring the engine oil level before every ride at intervals of 300 - 500 kms is really irritating.

Anyways, shall post some more findings after the GoPro speed run is completed.


Cheers,

Re: Motozone: Head & Mild Lift Camshaft Prototype, Ring Failure 17th Aug 2013 Log


Will be waiting for the video! Make sure turbo sound is captured well when you whack the throttle


Good to know. I have shifted to 300V two days back. Clocked 300+kms and the colour was fine, let me see how long the colour stays green.When I used to change Shell oil post 4k kms, the bike was still smooth, but I was changing it for my satisfaction and didnt want to push the oil to its limits. So hopefully I dont have to worry about the scary issue of piston rings going bust!


It is still going on . I am definitely happy with the low end performance, but it lacks the top end which was provided by Simota filter(but at the cost of engine reliability of course). I will post the details soon.And yes, @psr sir has helped me a lot regarding this.

Most probably my hotrodding days are over. The current setup I have is the most reliable one and no more experiments on this.

Re: Motozone: Head & Mild Lift Camshaft Prototype, Ring Failure 17th Aug 2013 Log

You can increase the top end on the same stock CV carburettor as well by fitting the 50mm conical Simota filter and upjetting the carb. But then you are exposing the engine to more dust and grime which will significantly reduce the life of the engine. It may good for a racer on a race track with a lot of money to spend on but for street usage especially in a dusty environment of india: NOT RECOMMENDED!!

Cheers,

Re: Motozone: Head & Mild Lift Camshaft Prototype, Ring Failure 17th Aug 2013 Log

The engine oil becomes Dark, only if combustion gas leaks through the Piston rings and mixes with the oil.....In Petrol engine cars even at 5 K kms the oil will not get as dark as in Bikes..esp., the Air Cooled ones....reason is because of the higher expansion of the bore and Piston which leads to gap over a period of time...A young engine and an Old engine both will make the oil Dark soon...the young one because it is not set and the old one because it is worn....
The engine oil is not only a Lube for the engine, it is also there to seal the ring to bore gaps...so technically an oil with larger particles as in Mineral oil with good lube property, and friction reducing agent like ZDDP will have better stability and ring seal....
A mineral oil changed every 1,500 kms will keep the engine in better condition than a FS changed at 5 K Kms, due to the fact that there is New oil every 1.5 K kms..

Adarsh.. I had not helped any more than how you helped yourself....you were seeking knowledge and keen to learn, so you got the info that you wanted, and YOU did a DIY and succeed in your efforts....
Good Luck..

Shv 18...from your account of what Motozone is sharing with you it seems they are on the right track...they are coming forward to discuss openly on various aspects of tuning and upgrading which shows their confidence in their work, plus the fact that they are there to answer your questions is a very big boon...having a tuner close at hand to get help with the kit and the queries ,is essential for your peace of mind...Still only an experience over a period of time will prove the facts.....Sorry if i sound Pessimistic, since I have seen too many tall claims, Self proclamation , and total failures among the threads ...

Re: Motozone: Head & Mild Lift Camshaft Prototype, Ring Failure 17th Aug 2013 Log

Have already tried it & itt does improve top end. I have posted the details here (http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/general-...tml#post980908)

I realized the reliability is compromised by a good extent when using this, so stock carb and filter it is from now on. Good to see FE figures close to 40kmpl after a long time

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Thanks again psr ji for the detailed info. Let me see how the 300V changes colour with time. If piston rings are really the culprit, then what optins does one have? Replace with new rings?

Re: Motozone: Head & Mild Lift Camshaft Prototype, Ring Failure 17th Aug 2013 Log

I am using Shell Rimula R4 Diesel Oil in my ZMA-R...The oil became dark only after 900 Kms and at 1500 Kms still looks slightly dark....all the oils I had tried before had left the engine oil looking dark at 600~700 kms.....and the engine is smooth even now ..there is no roughness and gear changes are good...cold starts are better....many ZMA/ZMR owners have tried with good results...The Oil is Mineral and changing at !,500 to 1,700 Kms depending on oil condition is recommended....the oil feels more like FS ( not exact)...
I had gone for the Rimula R4 because it contains high amount of ZDDP which had been either lowered very much or removed from Petrol engine oils.This compound is essential for reducing wear and protection of moving parts...
The Rimula R3x is equally good at 250/- per liter and R4 is 300/- per liter ..R4 contains Calcium also to help reduce wear....

Motozone Headwork & Cam: Aborted Speed run 20th Aug, 2013

Hi All,

I started the speed run today but like an idiot i forgot to put the GoPro camera on Video mode, and instead the cam was shooting pics on burst mode. Luckily I saw the police Nakabandi/check post ahead way in advance so aborted the run before i get into trouble with the law. It seems thanks to a few morons (read macchar bikes from Mohammad Ali Road..Arrrgh!!) , the police are taking severe action against any riders found doing illegal racing or riding their respective motorcycles at crazy high speeds. So i guess the speed run video will have to wait for a bit till the things cool off a bit.

Please note:

* i was fully geared up when the speed run was attempted and ensured that there was no heavy traffic or pedestrian movement in the test location. I am strictly against street racing and would request all the riders not to try this on streets. be a responsible rider.
* the speed run was done just to test the gains observed with the Motozone ported head and the highlift camshaft prototype.
* I am no drag specialist but just an average rider and "feather weight" if you know what i am saying eh?
* Leo Vince Exhaust with the DB insert was still kept installed when the speed run was attempted. This was intentionally done to simulate city riding conditions.
* Front Sprocket 15T and Rear Sprocket 40T config has been kept while attempting the run.

Anyways i would like to share the pics of the run attempted. Please note the speeds achieved were done at 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear before i aborted the run.



Pic 1: 44 kmph, 1st gear @ 9,000 rpm



Pic 2: 65 kmph, 2nd gear @ 9,000 rpm



Pic 3: 94 kmph, 3rd gear @ 9,000 rpm


As the pics suggest:

* 1st gear @ 9,000 rpms = 44 kmph
* 2nd gear @ 9,000 rpms = 65 kmph
* 3rd gear @ 9,000 rpms = 94 kmph

Need i say more?? The way my FZ - X was flying was unbelievable!! And don't forget i still had two gears left!! I reckon, if our local test rider Jr. Danny Pedrosa AKA "Joel Raju" was in my place, the speeds achieved in all 3 gears would have been far different! Its just that i was not too keen on pushing my FZ -X with a leaking kit and shifting gears @ 10,000 rpm. Forgive me for my sheer reluctance but i hope you understand.

Motozone's prototype head and cam has passed the "half-done" test in flying colours!! I am yet to attempt city and low speed tests on the same. Will provide reports as i continue testing this prototype.

Sir needless to say so far all my attempts have been to push the kits to the limit but ofcourse keeping it within the boundaries of safety of the rider and the engine as no one is funding me for my pet project. Hot roding is very addictive and somehow i find it more enticing than alcohol..

Unless i am fully satisfied with their kits, i shall not give it a full approval seal. But it is their sheer confidence and openness with how to make things work has kept my belief in their work. As of now the results like above look really promising.


Next in line, i also have to check out the annoying FE achieved and rideability tests done at rpms as low as 2,000 rpms; in order to see how much the cam can handle before the engine dies off. With RC cam anything below 3k rpm on streets was a complete nightmare!!


More reports coming soon...


Cheers,

Re: Motozone Headwork & Cam: Aborted Speed run 20th Aug, 2013

Shv18 .....Good going, like you said street racing is a definite no no.....try speed test on the highway, with none to get in the way, and be extra careful...since a bore seizure will lead to rear wheel lock and skid....If you ask me, it is simply not worth taking the risk.....Personal safety is of utmost importance...
Good Luck

Re: Motozone Headwork & Cam: Aborted Speed run 20th Aug, 2013

Feels great reading about the transformation of your ride.. almost like a Phoenix rising from the ashes.

It's also great to see people being so mature and accepting criticism for RC where deserved, a far cry from the days when mobs of Fan-boys were always on call to defend the honour of the "Tooner" lest anyone dare question his black magic like abilities. Guess they were all in the honeymoon phase with their souped -up rides and are now waking up to reality.
I too have learnt the hard way that Fast and Cheap is not Reliable!
I guess that's what our mistakes cant take away from us - the lesson!

Wish you all the best in your trials!

Re: Motozone Headwork & Cam: Aborted Speed run 20th Aug, 2013

Sir safety is and always has been my first priority! I don't like street racing nor would promote it ever. AGATT (All Gears All The Time) is a must especially when attempting high speed rides. That has always been my moto. There is no point of risking the lives of others for the sake of just few seconds of fun PERIOD!! I guess the sense of curiosity with performance gains got hold of the better part of me hence the tests.

Thank you for your kind words. Yes even though the experience of hot roding has come at a great expense of being duped and faulty parts.. i must say i have learned so much from it. I must thank the Moderators for being open to hear the other side of the story and allow people to share facts and figures. I am also greatful to all the readers who have been kind, patient and have refrained from inducing flaming comments on this thread thus, retaining the integrity and keeping it productive for all. Thank you all!

I guess this may sound like a complete plug in but the fact is... Motozone have so far been very supportive and have been constantly asking me for feedback. Encouraging me to push the kits to the limits and until i am satisfied they want me to provide them feedback so that they can tweak the design better.. I call that customer service! To all the Noobs please bear in mind that the above tests showing the magical nos. are only as per speedo reading. One should also consider the speedo error of 5 - 10 %. So regardless, once, i can get rid of this leaking piece of junk and try out the new NiKaSil bores, i would conduct the Gtech RR Pro GPS Data tests to verify the actual gains achieved in comparison to stock. It will be the true test of the Motozone kits besides the other long term ownership experience. If the kits last then i guess members who are still interested in hot roding can decide what works and what doesn't.

PSR Ji as discussed the nos. look promising but i would still refrain from advocating these kits not just yet till i am fully satisfied with:

What's Hot:

* Performance Gains
* Acceleration Gains
* Low speed performance
* Top end Acceleration
* Average life of the kits, reliability and operation efficiency under high speed runs on highway
* GTech GPS Data to prove "i practice what i preach!" and have the necessary information to prove it
* Dyno runs: when they become available to provide irrefutable proof that the BHP gains at the wheel are verified by a certified Dyno techinician unlike our Tooner

What's Not:

* Losses in comparison to stock
* Undue vibrations if any
* Streetability compared to a "Tooner's special Race spec'd bike for streets" which blows up in 500 kms!!
* Loss in FE, Range for the pursuit of power and performance
* Any other parameters.

I think this much data and facts should clear my stance about how to do hot roding the correct way!!

I guess the term "Tooner" is catching up really fast!!


Cheers,

Re: Motozone Headwork & Cam: Aborted Speed run 20th Aug, 2013

Shv, lets ride to Lonavala this weekend. I am sure your bike wont seize or blow up en route. Lonavala isnt a long ride. What say?