@Nanotech

Its once again engine opening up time.Get the engine dis-assembled ,check the valve recesses and ask them to leave no sharp edges on them.

Get the head checked and make them match the head size to that of the bore.

Check the cam chain and sprocket.

Check the valve-train

Get the timing set once again and get the timing to be retarded.

Get the carb tuned properly.

Put the foam back on the filter.

gixxer buddy.

if its running with a 117.5 main jet, how come its running lean??

besides, its performing absolutely amazing, how again can it be lean ???

I've lost the foam, will have to buy a new one.

can i do 1 thing, instead of taking up the entire bike, can i just get the head removed and give it for boring, i.e matching it to the block and get porting done also ??

i think silencer can also be an issue !!!
it maybe that the compression is too high for the exhaust to throw it out, in turn leading to this heat problem, isn't it ??

my bike is stationary and with only Vishal's help i can get these things done, anyways its almost impossible taking the entire bike to some place, max what i can do is get the head removed, if possible even the block and piston, and go to the bore guy and get all sorted, dragging the entire bike to 30 + kilometers is a pointless task i believe.
Vishal and me live on 2 extreme corners of Mumbai.

however it will take time for me to do this, maybe 2 weeks..

tell me honestly everyone, how much more damage on the pocket, i am ready to buy stuff, i am ready to buy a head, a silencer and even a K&N..

but i don't want to again end up opening the stuff.

i am literally tired working on my bike, previously it was +1 bore with rebuild.
then was Full Dc.
then was Hid
then were 2 Hid's
now this 180.
then was a new carb

i am ready to do 1 more stuff, but i want it to be definitely the last, i am ready to pay more, but i want peace of mind !!!

@Nanotech

You can put the biggest main-jet available in the market and yet if you don't give it enough fuel, what use will the jet be?Jet is still a jet ,a simple metal pipe.

Look buddy ,i'll be honest with you.You can buy RTR head ,K&N ,FFE ,40 mm carb and what not.But if all these things aren't set up properly to work together,you will still end up with a seized bore.

The problem(s) you have :-

1. Badly tuned carb(there's no getting around it).

2. Ignition timing too advanced for the set-up(needs to be retarded).

3. Something is causing pre-ignition along with the above points .Either the valve recesses aren't done properly or some other burr is left to heat up.

4. The head needs to be matched with the bore.

Ask the lathe exactly what work they did and let psr or killer or us know about it.

Look gagandeep .This is a common thing which is being done on fieros. Firstly the fiero bore is not at all available and if it is available it costs 1000 buck more than a RTR 160/180 bore.So most of the fieros here are running on the RTR bores , this modification is done on a regular basis so its not at all a complicated process.

In the parts manual of the RTR 180 it is specified that this bore-kit can be put on a Apache 150 and you know that our bikes use the same bore-kit.

The silencer is not causing this problem.The reason is points # 1,2 and 3.

If you make the silencer more free flowing it will help matters.But if you get the points mentioned above wrong ,then you will have to keep on opening up the engine.

As it is the mechanicals of your bike are fine, as it has proved it by doing 800 kms.The thing which is wrong is the tuning.

If killer hadn't helped us out here.We would be walking around in circles.I asked psr to come and take a look at it and i am sure he would have helped us out like Killer.

The thing is buddy you are lucky that they diagnosed it correctly at one go.Otherwise i think it would have been the trial and error method with all the things possible, to sort out this issue .

Bottom line is carb and ignition timing can make or break a set-up ,stock or otherwise.Then reading of the plug is a very important thing, along with the feedback you are getting from the bike,like excess heat ,which always means something's not right.

I have repeatedly mentioned set-up because the ignition timing set by vishal and the mech might be correct for a stock engine and may not be right for a modified engine which needs ignition timing to be retarded.

Then there's the possibility of something being wrong with the cam sprocket or chain which can cause problems with the timing.

@Nanotech

Do one thing, go to the nearest available mech and ask him to tune the carb and make sure you mention to make A/F very rich.That is plug should become dark/black. Then you can ride the bike slowly without ripping.That is within 50 and making sure the engine doesn't get heated up excessively.Then take the bike to vishal.

Nano you have just confirmed that the bike fires normally,when cold and slowly advances in ignition as it gets hotter.Your ignition module, pickup coil,and all electronics connected with it are all ok.It is the heat which is creating the problem...and it must be really hot How come you haven't noticed this serious prob? What does the plug look like...I bet it is snow white in color.Thank god the plug didn't break and fall inside the cylinder due to pre ignition and detonation.Stop using the vehicle in this heat range.Check compression for higher than recommended value,and also head leak,apart from lean AFR .Gixxer has done good work on his bike,and has the "hands on experience ".I would go with his advise since he owns similar bike and done similar work on it.

thank you guys for confirming that nothing major has been damaged yet..

okay, i believe it can be a timing issue, as Killer has mentioned very precisely exactly as what i felt.

for now i am scared to ride my bike anywhere even if the timing issue is sorted or mixture is made rich..
i can feel the piston hitting the head very very hard, I've felt it twice and i will NOT turn on my engine at all before i confirm small things, like head matching to the bore or so on.

after that it done, we'll come up with timing and stuff.

I'll remove my head and block, and firstly match the head with the bore.
will smooth-en already made valve recesses too.
after doing that I'll fix up the head, and then timing and carb will be tuned.

besides I'll grab a spanner, and remove the plug and show you guys its image.

and guys, i am wanting to make it right.
the only problem is finding right guys nearby is a big trouble and vishal is far away to take my bike there.

so we'll do 1 thing at a time.

1 more thing i want to clear off, as killer had mentioned that i had experienced pre-ignition.
it happens when the engine is hot enough and poorly cut metal or carbon deposits can be an issue.

so if i hadn't faced that problem this time, it means maybe my engine was not very hot !!
last time i rode for 30 or so kilometers in 1 go, this time only a kilometer, so pre-ignition wasn't faced this time, only piston hitting was faced..
for now, the primary issue is piston hitting the head..

1 more question.

remember that my TIMING CHAIN TENSIONER is pricol made !!
can that be an issue???
just asking to confirm.

That's non-issue. Pricol is the OE supplier.Besides i was speculating that's all as timing is the thing which is causing all the problems.Don't worry timing won't change by itself.

Since the engine has been opened up ,what's it state? That is the bore-kit does it look ok? because it has been exposed to some serious heat and that's never a good thing.Pre-ignition can put holes in the piston.

While the block is taken off .Make double sure that the crank is ok and ask the mech to check the bearings.

If possible get the crank to be re-set,if it has some play that is.

Same goes for the con-rod too and the reciprocating parts.

Seeing things positively,imagine if you hadn't ripped the bike ,you would have never learnt about the problem and we would have never heard it.Who knows if you had continued doing running-in for 2000 kms engine would have surely seized up somewhere in between.

@Nanotech


The sound you heard isn't the piston hitting the head.It's something else and probably related to engine-head.Get that investigated properly because if you simply say its the piston hitting the head then the mech will agree with you and move on.

Have you opened the engine and re-set it again?..and still getting the hammering sound or you are recollecting your previous incident?
Nano the sound you heard is called detonation...like metal hitting metal.It happened in your case because of higher temperature making the AF mix to explode spontaneously, without the spark,and in much advanced timing.That's one of the reason the crank started spinning in reverse direction. You should do a compression test to find out its present ratio.I think you have a combination of Poor AFR(lean),and higher than recommended compression ratio,leading to heat and pre-ignition..

yes bro, i am lucky its just 800 kms, i guess it should have been 500 kms.
besides i have come across some research which has proved that HARD RUN IN, increases the piston and bore life.

isn't checking the bearings a big task ?
tell me in laymans words, what should i ask the mech to do ?
if i use the word 'RETARD' the timing, he'll scratch his head.
what should i tell him ??

can i just make the mixture very rich myself ??
the thing is that all expert guys are near south mumbai (vishal's place)..

all grease monkeys live where i live, apart from few SBK mechs.

once i go to the bore guy, i might even drop my bike there for 3-4 days and get everything sorted once and for all.
i might also get porting done.

any idea as how much the new head of A180 costs ??

if in case my head is damaged or something !!!

thanks psr, it good that you have come here to help me on special request..

i haven't opened anything as yet.
the pre ignition was faced only 1ce. (not stopping of the engine even with the key in hand nad reverse jerk)
it happened when the bike was ridden for 35kms in a go.


while the tock tock sound (metal hitting metal) happens whenever bike behaves unnaturally, i.e if the revvs increase.
so far the revvs have increased automatically 3 times.
1ce with pre ignition at the end of unusual revving session, the other 2 times when i was dragging my bike home.
i rode it for a kilometer, it happened, without any pre ignition this time. I switched it off, after dragging a bit, i tried to start again, and the revvs constantly kept on increasing.

so that tock tock noise starts whenever the bike REVVS unusually automatically reaching 7.5k.
pre-ignition is a different phase.

@Nanotech

Yeah you can richen the a/f ratio yourself but you have to keep checking the plug while you are doing it to make sure the plug turns dark/black.

Forget the new head buddy ,no need to buy it .Nothing would have happened that's not repairable .

Richen the a/f ASAP

What psr has said is correct the sound you hear might be the knocking and detonation happening .But the thing which worries me is that you are saying it's very loud.

Tell us whether you heard this sound even when you were riding slowly?From my understanding this sound comes only after a ripping session,right?

Do the richening and see if the sound comes when ridden slowly.

The richening of the carb is just a temporary measure,a first aid you might say .It's like putting a band-aid over a wound which needs 20 stitches.The main issue is the ignition timing and a lean carb has made it worse .But tuning the carb now will only save the engine from serious damage.What it need's is expert attention.

I suggest you get the ignition timing set at a mech who understands what's advance and retard timings are and how to set it.If timing is not set properly,what can i say ,you already know the result.

@Nanotech

Ask the mech to check the crank and connecting rod for play.This is something which every mech knows ,so no need to worry about it.

As i told you setting the timing by instructing the mech over a phone is not practical and the result will be known only when the bike is ripped .Then you have to once again open the head's cover and re-set the timing,if it's wrong and so on.I've heard a expert tuner and racing team owner here in bangalore getting tuning right over a phone.But he know's his bikes,their settings and he's a expert at tuning.

I seriously suggest that you and vishal get the timing set at a mech who knows what retarding the ignition timing means and why its done.

@Nanotech

To put it in very simple words.Retarding the timing means the spark has to come when the piston is at TDC and not before TDC as it is in stock setting.