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**riazmomin** · 10-23-2013, 03:17 PM

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Originally posted by vrugonnab View Post

Well, Bajaj did come out long ago and it did work out very well for them. It is as easy as sitting and typing, if you understand what you are typing. If Honda can start their operations while in JV, Hero can obviously do that i.e. starting on their own. Whatever contractual agreement is, it only dictates how Hero & Honda should operate within Hero Honda JV. Outside it, both parties are free to have their own operations, obviously not using any of the resources/property of the JV.

Please don't fool yourself by saying Honda only provided tech as if Hero was already having dealerships, assembly plants & logistics sorted out for the JV and was just waiting to sign on the dotted line along with Honda. Hero could have bargained for much more if they had the leverage, but the fact is Hero wasn't bringing much to the table. Hero didn't have much to offer in the JV apart from getting money into the JV and being that Indian JV partner.

Hero Moto is developing 3 engines, that's a good news. Apparently, their priorities are spot on as it looks like 100cc, 110cc & 250cc engines are being developed. They have clearly identified that 125-220cc isn't bringing great volumes for them. Getting a 250cc is looks like a good move as of now, Honda in all possibility seems to be vacating the space. So, there is going to be an empty spot for Hero. But, the problem is going to be with pricing as P375 is expected and we know Bajaj is damn good with pricing and to top it, they got the awesome D390 for about 2 lakhs OTR.

During 1980's when ever a foreign entity wanted to invest in India, there was a particular rule that they should tie up with the local Indian company. So you see Hero and Kinetic with Honda, TVS and Maruti with Suzuki, Bajaj with Kawasaki, Toyota with Kirloskar, Yamaha with Escorts and many more like that, even something called Pepsi with Lehar. Primary reason for this is that local companies will get to have the technology and provide the infrastructure to these foreign ones.

Here the Indian companies were on receiving side and not on giving side, hope you understood the context here.

Fast forward to 2000s, where this rule was no more and foreign companies were free to have their own businesses. So you saw TVS and Suzuki split, Kinetic and Honda split. And all these JVs were not doing well at that time and Hero and Honda's JV was doing exceptionally well. So why to break something that is already doing good. Honda taking the advantage setup its own HMSI. Kawasaki was particularly small entity compared to Honda and Suzuki and limited range of motorcycles to offer, they played safe by allowing Bajaj to be its salesman.

As you said, Hero was free to do anything that was out side the JV. But again, those products may not me Direct competition to Hero Honda JV or Honda's products. This is the point where many motorcycle enthusiasts and anti-hero were missing here. So what Hero did, they launched mopeds called Hero Puch and scooters like Winner, and Majestic. Some electric scooters too. These were not direct competition to Honda. And assuming that you were expecting a 250cc from Hero individually at that time, then you are wrong because there was no market for 250cc bikes at that time. Remember BMW Funduro? It is not just Hero, but even TVS and Bajaj were treated in similar way. You know that when Suzuki Fiero came there was not a single decal or mention of TVS on it?

So, Honda did setup HMSI and from here the differences arose which were brewing till the breakup. Starting with Unicorn & Activa. Ever Imagined why Hero never put up Monoshock? It is product differentiation between Hero's 150cc bikes and Honda's Unicorn. What Hero got in advantage is better tuned engines for more performance like Xtreme and Hunk.

Hero not bringing much to table? Hero was a cycle manufacturer and Honda was a giant in two-wheeler industry in world. Please understand that.

And getting a 250cc because Honda is vacating is a humorous statement!! When did Hero announce its 250cc bike and When did Honda announced it 300cc bikes? Check out the timeliness and you will understand.

Well typing is easy if you understand what you are typing, but if the scope is limited and do not know about it completely, it just becomes funny or ridiculous.

**sibun** · 10-23-2013, 03:33 PM

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Originally posted by kochumvk View Post

Hey that was a long one. Appreciate you for talking more about engines than bikes.

Thanks for your appreciation.

However, to explain the real world pulling power (torque) comparing 1/1.2 L engine with a 2.5L motor is a bit out of context, difference of 1.5 L and difference of .02 L is really different. Another thing that amplifies the difference is loading. If a bike/car is loaded more its going to suffer more if it have a smaller motor. If both vehicles are loaded nominally, difference will not be that big and power will show above torque. Typically happens when no pillion or baggage is there and riding on a nice tarmac surface.
This much typing has gone waste. My point you couldn't understand. I was not telling the difference between 2.5l and 1.1l motor.
I took so much of difference in engine capacity in order to make my point clear. With large difference in capacity we can easily explain why a larger engine with same power output is different.

If i would have taken a 500 cc difference then i couldn't have explained the difference in engine performance, so i took a larger displacement difference to make my point clear.

But the moment we add a pillion on a a 150 cc motor, it starts to remind that there is no replacement for displacement.

Exactly the point i was making to clear. Most here complain that a 150 cc motor puts out same power as 223 cc motor. So to make them understand i made the point on Bolero and maruti. My exact point is power is not a major factor. For touring torque is important and that is what ZMA/ZMR dishes out in plenty. It is natural that a person going on touring will carry luggage and if his better half is also a biker will accompany him so makes it two. So although a 150 cc engine will be putting out same power but here it will fail to show its power.

Moreover constant revving will tire out the mind before body.

Another important parameter is where the motor makes its juice. for example, ZMRs motor makes peak torque 2000 revs down compared to its major competitor. Making it feel relaxed while producing the same torque. However there are people who like quick revving motors as well. Its just a preference. Again in my opinion, a motor that make peak at 12K rpm is not going to excel in city or moderate speed touring. but if its doing under 8.5 k it will have sufficent juice in the usable mid range.
I explained that also. Why does a ZMR make more torque at low rpm. Its nothing but its more bigger displacement which comes into play. Yes there are people who like quick revving motors, so that is why i mentioned manufactures tune their vehicle for different types.

Most here cry that the new update is not track oriented. I wanted to make the point that you have mentioned:-" People like rev happy motors". I wanted to make the opposite point that " There are people who also like to play with torque than power and for them it is ZMR/ZMA".

9400 out accelerating almost all cars is something new news to me.

9400 will not outright accelerate better than most cars in market as the cars will leave it for dead. But my post was the roll on timings.
If the car and bus both will slow down and again pull and both do not change gears the 9400 will just pull ahead. Tested it on a friends scorpio and 9400.

And it was not all cars but most cars in market.

I was not showing the acceleration but my point was that what torque can do.

A 9400 weighs so much but produces only 390 hp. But the torque is what makes the performance. Moreover its rated top speed is 120 kph but it frequently crosses 140 kph. It would not have been possible with more horse power but with more torque engine just pulls beyond red-line effortlessly.

Regarding the efficiency comparison of Karizma and Xtreme, when one doing 90 on Xtreme engine stress is much more than doing the same on Karizma. at 90 Karizma is running relatively stress free. So xtreme is going to show poor efficiency show in such a scenario, If a 220 tries to keep up with a Ninja with a nice rider on board, 220 may end up filling more than ninja (still not able to keep up

)
I also tried to explain that but you didn't understand. My point was that although some 150 cc motors make same power as karizma, then why didn't company make more power from the karizma motor. It was because company wanted to relax the motor and keep the same characteristics of the engine.
I know that doing 90 on extreme stresses the engine more than karizma, and that was the point i made that although karizma lacks power but it is this feature that i like of the karizma and make it love it more.

Replies in bold.

So basically that which i made for making others understand, you are making me understand. In other words-"meri billi mujhse miaow"

.

I was just posting the merits of bigger engine than a smaller engine of same power. I have learnt all this and much more during my Mech. engg and Automobile engineering days. Head are basically full of these stuffs that everybody in my contact calls me for solution to their bikes and cars.

Even mechanics take number from my retailer friend and call me for some problems which they cannot solve. So i thought it better to post it here for others to understand why a 150 cc motor producing 17 ps is different than a 223 cc motor producing same power.

**kochumvk** · 10-23-2013, 04:47 PM

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Originally posted by sibun View Post

Replies in bold.

So basically that which i made for making others understand, you are making me understand. In other words-"meri billi mujhse miaow"

.
"This much typing has gone waste. "

I agree one hundred per cent on thae part in bold.

And I am not good in Hindi as its not my mother tongue, though I understood your point in italics, its ok.

I never knew that you are a person with such deep knowledge, I give up. I am sorry.

**Satyamzma** · 10-23-2013, 05:31 PM

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

i wish new Karizma R shows same or even better level of refinement like current models.

**Divya Sharan** · 10-23-2013, 06:02 PM

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Originally posted by kochumvk View Post

And I am not good in Hindi as its not my mother tongue, though I understood your point in italics, its ok.

A person solely dependent on me yet orders me to follow him.
The sentence literally means, "My cat meowing me!"

Its like an idiomatic expression.

**kochumvk** · 10-23-2013, 06:12 PM

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Originally posted by Divya Sharan View Post

A person solely dependent on me yet orders me to follow him.
The sentence literally means, "My cat meowing me!"

Its like an idiomatic expression.

Thanks.

There are people, who talks like this in their language, When big people say like that, we just need to stop 'mewing'. After all I dont have helped so many to fix problems or even dont have a BTech in Mechanical. It will be much nicer to use a language all can understand, while posting in a public forum.

Once a cop also asked me to talk in Hindi or a another language that I dont know how to speak.Some features are common across different demographics. Its ok.

.

Thanks Divya for giving me the proper meaning, in a language I can understand.

**Divya Sharan** · 10-23-2013, 06:20 PM

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Originally posted by kochumvk View Post

Thanks.

There are people, who talks like this in their language, When big people say like that, we just need to stop 'mewing'. After all I dont have helped so many to fix problems or even dont have a BTech in Mechanical. It will be much nicer to use a language all can understand, while posting in a public forum.

Once a cop also asked me to talk in Hindi or a another language that I dont know how to speak.Some features are common across different demographics. Its ok.

.

Thanks Divya for giving me the proper meaning, in a language I can understand.

Well, I think it would be harsh on our part to say Sibun da did this knowingly. We have many people who post the entire reply in their mother tongue!
BTW, even I thought you are from Maharashtra originally and working in Cochin since Pune is mentioned first in the location.

**vrugonnab** · 10-23-2013, 08:50 PM

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Originally posted by riazmomin View Post

Fast forward to 2000s, where this rule was no more and foreign companies were free to have their own businesses. So you saw TVS and Suzuki split, Kinetic and Honda split. And all these JVs were not doing well at that time and Hero and Honda's JV was doing exceptionally well. So why to break something that is already doing good. Honda taking the advantage setup its own HMSI. Kawasaki was particularly small entity compared to Honda and Suzuki and limited range of motorcycles to offer, they played safe by allowing Bajaj to be its salesman.

I guess that's what I said. Hero didn't wanted to disturb apple cart, so they chose to mint money from the JV as long as they could.

As you said, Hero was free to do anything that was out side the JV. But again, those products may not me Direct competition to Hero Honda JV or Honda's products. This is the point where many motorcycle enthusiasts and anti-hero were missing here. So what Hero did, they launched mopeds called Hero Puch and scooters like Winner, and Majestic. Some electric scooters too. These were not direct competition to Honda. And assuming that you were expecting a 250cc from Hero individually at that time, then you are wrong because there was no market for 250cc bikes at that time. Remember BMW Funduro? It is not just Hero, but even TVS and Bajaj were treated in similar way. You know that when Suzuki Fiero came there was not a single decal or mention of TVS on it?

So, Honda did setup HMSI and from here the differences arose which were brewing till the breakup. Starting with Unicorn & Activa. Ever Imagined why Hero never put up Monoshock? It is product differentiation between Hero's 150cc bikes and Honda's Unicorn. What Hero got in advantage is better tuned engines for more performance like Xtreme and Hunk.

Disagree with your point big time, you seem to forget that Hero didn't have any R&D worth it's name. So, they were completely dependent on Honda for anything related to tech. They did try to put up some products like Hero Street, puch and burned their fingers. That made them realize that without Honda's tech, it take a lot to put out a good product. So, they happily played the dumb partner part till the time Honda wanted to breakup. Monoshock as a differentiation is laughable, as I said Hero simply didn't have any tech. Besides Honda had strict control over the JV & the products to be sold under JV. Assuming that Hero started an independent operation, they were well within their rights to launch products that are in direct competition with JV's products. Just like how Honda launched Shine/Unicorn which were in direct competition with 125cc/150cc bikes of JV. You seem to be blinded by Hero bhakti, so the simple point that "if Honda could start their own operation as HMSI and launch products that are in direct competition with JV, Hero could also do it" is not getting to your head. The only condition here is that Hero can't use any tech provided by Honda for their independent operation. Otherwise they will end up in court.

Hero not bringing much to table? Hero was a cycle manufacturer and Honda was a giant in two-wheeler industry in world. Please understand that.

Exactly my point, so Hero didn't have any choice but to agree with every condition put forth by Honda.

And getting a 250cc because Honda is vacating is a humorous statement!! When did Hero announce its 250cc bike and When did Honda announced it 300cc bikes? Check out the timeliness and you will understand.

I didn't say that Hero is getting 250cc since Honda is vacating it. Just meant to say that under the current market circumstances, it looks like a good move provided they price it well as and when it comes.

Well typing is easy if you understand what you are typing, but if the scope is limited and do not know about it completely, it just becomes funny or ridiculous.

Replies in bold, all it needs is simple common sense, I've seen enough contracts to know what i'm typing. Ridiculous is the fact that you don't seem to understand both the parties are free to pursue their interests outside contract. And you fail to recognize that Honda did just that, while Hero chose to play the dumb partner part till the moment Honda wanted to break up.

**Naveen1985** · 10-23-2013, 08:55 PM

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Originally posted by vrugonnab View Post

Replies in bold, all it needs is simple common sense, I've seen enough contracts to know what i'm typing. Ridiculous is the fact that you don't seem to understand both the parties are free to pursue their interests outside contract. And you fail to recognize that Honda did just that, while Hero chose to play the dumb partner part till the moment Honda wanted to break up.

hero street was having the same honda 100cc engine...correct yourself properly before posting crap....

**abhi7013** · 10-23-2013, 09:20 PM

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Originally posted by vrugonnab View Post

Replies in bold, all it needs is simple common sense, I've seen enough contracts to know what i'm typing. Ridiculous is the fact that you don't seem to understand both the parties are free to pursue their interests outside contract. And you fail to recognize that Honda did just that, while Hero chose to play the dumb partner part till the moment Honda wanted to break up.

You don't get it do you. Few companies prefer to get a contract signed by you before joining rite. It says that you promise not to try to join other outside companies for the Said duration. 'outside' companies here is similar to hero's case like trying to launch r&d of their own or whatever crap it is that you expected them to do.
This thread is about the three engines. So can anyone confirm if Honda's 250cc is with hero?

Sent from my MT27i using Tapatalk 2

**riazmomin** · 10-23-2013, 09:29 PM

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Originally posted by vrugonnab View Post

Replies in bold, all it needs is simple common sense, I've seen enough contracts to know what i'm typing. Ridiculous is the fact that you don't seem to understand both the parties are free to pursue their interests outside contract. And you fail to recognize that Honda did just that, while Hero chose to play the dumb partner part till the moment Honda wanted to break up.

You are just making very easy for me

and yeah, you have fell on your own pit.

Read your both the posts and read them properly. You are arguing with yourself and making easy for me.

You said that Hero did not had any tech, Hero did not had any R&D, Hero did not had any support from Honda, Honda had full control over JV. Your statements are just amusing and equally humorous. Honda was never easy with Hero one HMSI came up, its like non-cooperation.

AFAIK...Hero Puch did very well in its day.

HMSI and Hero and Hero Honda are completely different companies. HMSI was independent entity and they can do any thing with their products. Hero Honda is a JV where Hero cannot put a product competing with HMSI. HMSI is a competitor to Hero Honda and Hero.

Monoshock laughable

Hero Honda had well tunes engines and had better power delivery than Unicorn and you are saying that Hero did not had technology for Monoshoc :P Come on buddy, please be reasonable.

And about me blinding by bhakti of Hero

, you seem to be in different state of mind and easy way to deviate from the topic and going personal.

And yeah, ridiculous is that fact that you dont seem to understand that Hero Honda could not do what Hero is doing today. Pumped up ZMA and ZMR right after breakuo. And Hero coming up with Radical changes to their bikes. Rings any bells to you. This shows how much the Honda was cooperating with Hero in JV.

Come up with some intelligent answer and you shall have my reply, untill then. All the best.

**Naveen1985** · 10-23-2013, 10:16 PM

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Originally posted by vrugonnab View Post

Replies in bold, all it needs is simple common sense, I've seen enough contracts to know what i'm typing. Ridiculous is the fact that you don't seem to understand both the parties are free to pursue their interests outside contract. And you fail to recognize that Honda did just that, while Hero chose to play the dumb partner part till the moment Honda wanted to break up.

what is your age...???

**ravi@17bhp** · 10-23-2013, 10:18 PM

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

People sit at desk and believe business is run with understanding, instead of contract agreement. ROFL!

**Adarsh_Bk** · 10-23-2013, 11:25 PM

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Well, here are some more facts about Hero Honda..

The three main reasons for the JV to break was..

1. Honda did not allow the products from Hero Honda to be exported as it was not part of the JV agreement.

2. Out of the total 16 board members of Hero Honda, 4 were from hero, 8 were independent & rest 4 were from Honda, in which HMSI reported to one of them & the other was head of Honda two wheeler business in Asia. So Honda had access to all of Hero Honda's plans & strategies but Hero knew nothing about HMSI, which they weren't comfortable with.

3. Like you said @vrugonnab, Hero wanted to start off on their own & have their own R&D, like HMSI, but Honda didn't approve it.

So breaking the JV and Hero going solo was the only way.

Moreover, Honda setup HMSI in 1999 after taking a NOC from Hero Honda with the understanding that Honda will not manufacture motorcycles and Hero Honda will not manufacture scooters for five years.

Honda sold its 26% stake to Hero at half the market price which everyone appreciated saying it was a very good gesture by them & that they really appreciated the highly successful 26 year JV.

Here is an interview of Hero's CFO Ravi Sud which has details of all the above mentioned info.
CFO Connect

Ok now, back to three engines

**Ankitvile** · 10-23-2013, 11:37 PM

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

look at this for the meanwhile.... Hero Impulse might get a big engine.

Hero revs up for Impulse comeback

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Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

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