Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Without adding anything productive to this discussion I will simply say that I agree 100% with you. It is indeed the acid-test-time for Hero - however my opinion is that the acid test is solely the 100cc segment. Everything else is secondary.

And as far as comparing bikes is concerned then I will reiterate my stance on this - a bike is what YOU make of it.

One bonker guy in the tourer section does >2000 kms trips on a god damned platina, another dude pulls off a saddle-sore on P135 LS and then we have some super bike owners who are only ever seen in CCDs.

Comparing bikes is the job of marketing department, they will assume some things and make a few claims and we all will get sucked into it. But we as Riders should rather compare stories.

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Now you talk like a biker and this is a point i have to agree with.. as you said.. it is the biker who makes what his bike is to be..

Kudos and I hope this comes to an end of Discussion in OT and move on with what the topic is about...

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

When did that happen ?
I Still see them in showrooms

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Hero can never sink like titanic. Population wise India is the biggest country in the world only second to china. Out of all those people only handful of people are enthusiasts and care about whether the engine is honda or not.You can see people are still buying hero products like crazy even after removing honda branding from its entire line-up. Hero will not going to advertize that we have stopped using honda tech and that is why it will not impact their sales much. Its a very smart move from hero, i mean they will not revamp things completely instead they will plonk new engines in existing bikes. They will just advertize new power and mileage figures.
One more thing...hero is no1 not just because of honda tech, their dealership and after sales & service network contributes to their numero-uno position....

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

To add to this.. no layman is going to look into engine configs, top speed, How many horses it has, what are the gear ratio aspects, is it an O Ring chain, does it do 0-60 in 2 seconds, whether i can race a R1 in tracks, whether I can do the best cornering like the Ninja, whether I can do a wheelie, a stop, mono shocks and the list goes on..

A layman is just gonna see Mileage, cost, after sales service, comfortable sitting position, whether it can serve his/her purposes and hero has just that.. and the added benefits are the current reliable engines of hero..

like I said.. when I was in 8th std way back in 2000, I always wanted a TVS 50 because if in case I run out of fuel, I can pedal my way back home or my destination.. so thats what any layman is gonna think.. so the point where Hero is gonna sink faster than Titanic is just not nearby.. maybe to an extent they might suffer but they will get back in the race before the ship sinks...

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Hero is not dumb, it is playing quite nice.. still piggybacking on the Honda engines but displaying only Hero name on the fuel tank. Even with the Hero name on current models it is still the Honda engine below. Common people now think that WOW even without Honda, Hero engines still perform like Honda engines..!!

Absolutely nothing wrong with that but the real test would be after Hero replaces the original Honda engines with its own developed ones. In case they aren't in the same league compared to the Honda engines (specially the 100 cc engines), it will take just a year or two for Honda to steam roll Hero with it Dream series.

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Isn't that 97 cc motor now outdated and outclassed? I don't know how good is the yuga. In this class what surrounding says is what matters most buyers are not going to read a comparison or review online. Mostly customer may not even visit other brands showrooms. Even if one does sales guys just sux most time they don't know what they are selling

Sent from my C6602 using xBhp Connect mobile app

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

I have been silently watching this thread and the other thread for sometime. Man this is just the top everything. Whenever any news on hero is posted it is not a news thread but is converted into a bashing and assumption thread. I just do not know why news on Hero is posted on this forum. If there is so much bashing and such then it is better to not post the news. There are lot of sources where we can get news like auto magazines, newspaper and television. Okay, it will be 15 days late but at-least we get to read the news and think about ours opinion. I like to read newspapers or magazines than watching news on television or public forum as in the former case we get to form our opinion. But in forum and TV news we are trusted with others opinion and such.If i watch news then always on DD national as there we get all the news. This news section has gone no different than those TV channels.Some are telling 1 bhp increase as upgrade and 3 bhp upgrade as nothing. Some wants a tourer be styled and positioned as track tool while some comments on the style even without seeing a product. Some just compare a product with any segment he likes. Some on hearing the news says that there is no Hope of good products from Hero, even without knowing what are the developments.Man this thread should be not named as News thread but assumption and bashing thread. Some of my observations which i would like to post here are:-1. Engine power:- This is i am telling not how much power a engine makes or such. But a basic difference in engine construction.Ok, the most pointed out thing is smaller engine makes more power then why not a bigger engine. Ok, a smaller engine producing almost similar power to bigger engine is no new thing. In bikes and cars both alike we have seen cases where a smaller engine makes more power. But does that mean the bigger engine is not efficient or of old design.No its just that the manufacture has designed for it to be like that. The bigger engine will always produce low end torque, more relaxed at high speed, will produce torque and power at lower rpm, will also have more engine life as the bike will run at less rpm.To make my point understand i am giving a small example:-We have a maruti hatchback in our family which uses the k-series engine in it which is quite efficient and rev friendly. I also sometimes borrow my friends Bolero or scorpio on some holidays when my whole family with cousins wants to go to some place as our car has less space. Now when we see the specs then my cars engine with less size makes more power than the 2.5L engine on bolero.Does that make the Bolero in-efficient and bad. No, never. Although it makes almost similar power with the smaller engine the torque is way beyond anything. Although my car will accelerate faster and post more top speed but i still like the bolero. Why? Its because of the bigger engine. The reason is:-1. The torque is like locomotive pulls from standstill. While in my car have to rev in first gear to move, in bolero just shift into second and leave the clutch, will pull without even touching the accelerator.2. Effortless pull in any gear, nothing to worry while overtaking, just push the accelerator and it pulls.3. On hilly sections it just blows away my car. Even when going to river beds with friends it pulls without effort.4. Runs at higher speed in lower gear as that huge torque has made the gearing taller and as a result even when running at 100 kph engine will be sounding like it is idling.SO the thing is that i have never compared this two as they are from different segments, use different fuel and thus have difference characteristics, and different as chalk and cheese. But the thing i pointed out was that a bigger engine is always more relaxed and necessarily not efficient. Its just that it has different pros going for it.So the example is only for showing that a bigger engine having less power is always not a disadvantage.Another example is that have you ever raced a VOLVO multi axle 9400 on the expressway. They produce only 390 HP so they are no match for most cars. See there power to weight ratio and you will see it pathetic. But see there torque, it produces 1600 Nm of torque. They almost out gun most cars when accelerating on highways and cross the rev limit in top gear and cross 140 kph easily. This is all because of torque.So the thing is that not always power to weight ratio matters but sometimes torque to weight ratio matters.So comparing engine size to power is different and not always correct.2. Style- Most complain that bike should be compact and what not. But all are not built for race track. Some are built for touring and thus will be bigger for the bike to be comfortable. Also rear seat should be comfortable for carrying pillion and luggage. You wouldn't expect your wife or girlfriend or wife to be supermodel to fit in that rear seat. So for some comfort take precedence over style, moreover we have not seen the style infront of us, so cannot comment.3. Development- In two years of split they have developed a new 250 cc engine which is commendable. Moreover they are trying hard and deciding to give a tough fight to competition which should be applauded. Moreover being an INDIAN company trying to capture markets all over the world, i am really proud of them.And lastly the new ZMA/ZMR then i had gone to showroom on this sunday to have a look and test ride, but bikes have not arrived. Will see for better viewing and if possible will take some photos and post. No matter how much better the camera is our eye is the best.And the new engines they i am eager to see all the new engines to see their performance and smoothness. And in my view point according to prices here in bhubaneswar a ZMR cost 1.1 lacs and a CBR 250 1.65 lacs. So if we analyse then CBR has more power, looks good, water cooled and smooth.But on another view point if we see then it cost around 55k more, expensive than ZMR to maintain, and also more heavy.In my riding on highways(where a friend accompanies me on His ZMR till 120 km after which he goes straight and i towards right) we have never crossed 100 kph more than 5-6 times, as we do not feel safe as roads are access by every moron. SO i do not like to spend 55k more. Moreover at 80-90 speeds the ZMR gives more kpl than even my extreme, so will save fuel than a CBR.Moreover when i buy a ZMR i save 55k which will help me get a pleasure for my sister.So while some may prefer CBR and some may think like me. So comparing two segments is worthless and both bikes are built to cater to different customers.So instead of arguing here keep this thread clean so that anybody who see these thread by googling doesn't get a bad impression on our forum and members. So all bikes are good, as there is a saying:- Beauty lies in eye of Beholder, so each bike becomes more better in the hands of its owner.

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Yes, if the Hero developed 100/110 cc engines don't turn out as expected.. it would not take much to spread the word among common people that "these new engines are not like the old engines".

By the way, the 110 cc Twister engine is a lovely unit.

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

[MENTION=28527]sibun[/MENTION]: There are many categories of humans like how there are bikes. Some are open, some are fan-boys who think their bike has all features they want, etc, etc. So no matter what, if they have decided that hero is a zero, then we cannot offer them anything apart from pity. There was a dude here who said zmr is not good in any of the characteristics and gave few examples. Zmr has the best mileage in >200cc category. This one point is enough to show that apart from performance which many bikes give, mileage too is important. This is just an example.

And yes. If a bike is low in performance when compared to other bikes, it is because the engineers have made it so for a reason. In case of karizma, these are tourers where top end and pick up are absolutely unnecessary. Instead the engine has to have a long reliable life cause such bikes would be ridden for hours together and hence have to be stress free. You think you'll rip all the way while touring?
Also it cannot be ignored that hero did a major mistake by remaining silent in the past few years. And now they are feeling the heat? haha.. If these engines are not as good then it's their end. I seriously hope hero makes it this time and i have a feeling that they surely will succeed. For this is their only chance.

BTW there were rumors that Honda's 250cc is also at hero's disposal? True?

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

This thread is quite amusing! and so are Hero sympathizers posting on it When Honda could start an independent operation while in Hero Honda JV, what was stopping Hero from going it all alone?

Yes, Honda said Hero can't tinker any products under Hero Honda brand name, that's to be expected. After all, Honda brought tech, spares industries, basically spoon fed Hero on everything.

Yes, Honda said Hero Honda products can't be exported to any other country and why not? do you think Honda is dumb to get 26% of the profit when they can have 100%, after all Honda was present in all of the export markets, why would they allow products with their own tech to compete against them, that's a no-brainer.

But, Hero was still free to start on their own while in JV with Honda. They didn't do it, but Honda started independent operation and are now very well positioned to grab market share from Hero.

Hero should've done this atleast 5 years ago, but on the flip side, since they continued with JV, they got truck loads of money, which they are trying to use to make up for the time. Coming to ZMA update, this is perhaps the most comprehensive update Hero has come up with, so they deserve a pat on the back. I hope they get things right pretty soon and get their act together. At the moment it looks like they are in a hurry to get a lot of things done in a short time.

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

^^ Did Bajaj come out 5 years before Bajaj-Kawasaki JV and started its R&D? Honda's role in Hero Honda is just providing technology. Everything else is done by Hero. Why would Hero come out of its own house and start separate? Both Honda and Hero can do only within the contractual agreement. Its not as easy as you sit and type. Its really amusing to see people type without any knowledge.

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

For crying out loud, can people here please stick to the god damn topic, if anybody has forgotten this is what it is " Hero Moto's 3 New Engines"

Related discussions should be about "these" engines, period.

I have a tendency to subscribe to a news thread hoping to follow if there are any updates or if anyone has been able to get some kind of inside scoop. Imagine my bewilderment when I get to see there is an update and every time I check, it's just another rant. Whoever want to rant please request the mods to start a new thread, hell maybe even a new section called "battle ground" where users could start wars of their choice. Why can't fans (i myself am a hero fan) just grow up and realize that someone else criticizing what you like doesn't make your preference bad. This kinda applies to all- with the amount of resources available on this forum if anyone still has a biased opinion don't bother correcting it, it just means the person with the opinion isn't bothered to change or get his facts straight, so just let it be or if it not possible atleast take it some place other than a "news thread"

I know that this is going to probably get lost somewhere between the rants but hell won't hurt to try and get back some sanity.

Mods- sorry for the OT

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News

Well, Bajaj did come out long ago and it did work out very well for them. It is as easy as sitting and typing, if you understand what you are typing. If Honda can start their operations while in JV, Hero can obviously do that i.e. starting on their own. Whatever contractual agreement is, it only dictates how Hero & Honda should operate within Hero Honda JV. Outside it, both parties are free to have their own operations, obviously not using any of the resources/property of the JV.

Please don't fool yourself by saying Honda only provided tech as if Hero was already having dealerships, assembly plants & logistics sorted out for the JV and was just waiting to sign on the dotted line along with Honda. Hero could have bargained for much more if they had the leverage, but the fact is Hero wasn't bringing much to the table. Hero didn't have much to offer in the JV apart from getting money into the JV and being that Indian JV partner.

Hero Moto is developing 3 engines, that's a good news. Apparently, their priorities are spot on as it looks like 100cc, 110cc & 250cc engines are being developed. They have clearly identified that 125-220cc isn't bringing great volumes for them. Getting a 250cc is looks like a good move as of now, Honda in all possibility seems to be vacating the space. So, there is going to be an empty spot for Hero. But, the problem is going to be with pricing as P375 is expected and we know Bajaj is damn good with pricing and to top it, they got the awesome D390 for about 2 lakhs OTR.

Re: Hero Moto's 3 New Engines: xBhp News


Hey that was a long one. Appreciate you for talking more about engines than bikes.

However, to explain the real world pulling power (torque) comparing 1/1.2 L engine with a 2.5L motor is a bit out of context, difference of 1.5 L and difference of .02 L is really different. Another thing that amplifies the difference is loading. If a bike/car is loaded more its going to suffer more if it have a smaller motor. If both vehicles are loaded nominally, difference will not be that big and power will show above torque. Typically happens when no pillion or baggage is there and riding on a nice tarmac surface.

But the moment we add a pillion on a a 150 cc motor, it starts to remind that there is no replacement for displacement.

Another important parameter is where the motor makes its juice. for example, ZMRs motor makes peak torque 2000 revs down compared to its major competitor. Making it feel relaxed while producing the same torque. However there are people who like quick revving motors as well. Its just a preference. Again in my opinion, a motor that make peak at 12K rpm is not going to excel in city or moderate speed touring. but if its doing under 8.5 k it will have sufficent juice in the usable mid range.

9400 out accelerating almost all cars is something new news to me.

Regarding the efficiency comparison of Karizma and Xtreme, when one doing 90 on Xtreme engine stress is much more than doing the same on Karizma. at 90 Karizma is running relatively stress free. So xtreme is going to show poor efficiency show in such a scenario, If a 220 tries to keep up with a Ninja with a nice rider on board, 220 may end up filling more than ninja (still not able to keep up)